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Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 250
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I printed off Colleen's above post (#1070) for my husband to read. It was a wonderful summary of EGW and SDA deception. He asked me about "arian beliefs" which I tried to explain as being the belief that Jesus was "lesser" than God. I was shocked when he came back with, "I can't wrap my mind around there just being one God....that's too weird...I think EGW was right on that one..." Just at that moment a friend showed up at the house and that was the end of the conversation.

I want to be ready to pick up this conversation later tonight when we have time. I will look over Chris' intensive and extensive study of the Trinity on another thread. Does anyone have any thoughts to share with me?
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 126
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dd,
I have always believed in one God (as the Trinity), but your husband's statement is not that surprising. I have known of other SDA's who have a really hard time accepting the Trinity doctrine. In fact, a couple years ago, the Sabbath School teacher at the SDA church we were then members of, asked me if I could do a search in the EGW writings to find support for the Trinity. He had an SDA friend who didn't believe the Trinity was Biblical, but would believe anything EGW said and that's why he was going from that direction. I didn't find much in the EGW writings in support of the Trinity! But I did find a couple statements that could sort of be interpreted as supportive.

Chris' study is an excellent place to look for help. There's certainly a lot more to support the Trinity in the Bible than in EGW!
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1218
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since the tile of this section is called,"SDA in black and white" I will also put on here that EGW said that at judgement time the slaves be will be thought of by God as if they never were. I will say right now there are many things that EGW said that get under my skin but that one is totally ranking at the top. First of all to anyone who is a decendant of a slave it is denying that person his ancestory, his entire heritage. Second, it plainly says in the Bible that ALL will stand before the judgement seat of God. I would think that statement alone by EGW when someone reads it and fully understands what EGW ment by it would get that person away from the SDA church as fast as he can go. Frankly, I think EGW s just plain blasphomous in a lot of her statements. There's a reason why her name adds up to 666.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1079
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that Chris's study is a wonderful resource, Dd. I'd also like to suggest that you get your husband a book by Hugh Ross. He is a Christian scientist with a doctorate in astronomy who also has a website for his organization, "Reasons to Believe". In his book "Beyond the Cosmos", he discusses the Trinity and our inability to accurately preceive God because of our three-dimensional limitations. If we were to be able to function in four or more dimensions, our understanding of how God can be one God in three Persons would be less mysterious.

He uses as an example the idea of theoretical two-dimensional creatures who live in a computer screen. If a three-dimensional finger touches the computer screen, we, from our external, three-dimensional perspective can see the entire hand with just a finger touching the screen at one point. To the mythical two-dimensional creatures, however, the point at which the finger touches the screen appears to be a round dot, nothing more.

If the finger lies sideways and touches the screen, we can still see the entire hand. To the two-dimensional creatures, however, what they see is now a larger, longer, more detailed impression on their world. If the finger actually pushess through the screen, we still see the entire hand pushing through the screen while the two-dimensional creatures experience something they cannot understand--something three-dimensional--invading their two-dimensional world.

I have a hunch your husband would relate to Hugh Ross's writings well, Dd. I had a very bright, scientific-minded student a few years ago to whom I loaned a Hugh Ross book. A week later he bounded into my classroom after school, sat down by my desk, and told me he had read the book and finally had a reason to believe in God. He proceeded to tell me about a similar computer screen illustration, only the one he read included the hand touching the screen with three different fingers, each of which the creatures would see as distinct and separate, but we from outside would see as part of the One Hand.

Just a hunch, Dd--but you might give Hugh Ross a try. His books are published by Navpress.

Colleen
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1081
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I forgot to mention in my last post, John, that the fear you experienced when you read about being without a mediator is not fear sent from God. The Bible assures us that Jesus will never leave us or forsake us, and He will be with us "to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:20) Perfect love, John writes, casts out fear. (1 John 4:18)

That statment by Ellen is patently false. We will NEVER be without our Mediator! He is ours eternally, and we will never be left alone to stand or fall on the merits of our own perfection.

Praise Jesus for His completely finished work and for His righteousness which God counts as ours!

Colleen
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 180
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 3:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John,

Deuteronomy 18:22 says, "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." OR HER!!! :-)

And Jeremiah 23:30-32 says:


quote:

"Therefore, behold, I [am] against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. Behold, I [am] against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I [am] against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD."




That is definitely talking about ELLEN!!!

Don't let her scare you--cast her out!

Jeremy
Truthseeker2004
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Username: Truthseeker2004

Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 3:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So true Colleen..Satan is the accuser....God's perfect love casts out fear.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 181
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan,

Yes, those are disgusting comments by EGW saying that the "ignorant" slaves will never be resurrected but will be as though they never had existed!

Tracey and others,

Please check out this web page that I put together called "Ellen White's 'Inspired' Bigotry, Racism, and Discrimination!" You can get to it by clicking here. I really should have the quote that Susan talks about, on there, too.

Jeremy
Tracey
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Username: Tracey

Post Number: 125
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And you would think that if God is love and EGW said racist comments, then C would say to himself, she didn't walk in love, therefore God is not in her.

YOu know what he said? I just dismiss it. I know it's false.

But how can he not care that others will learn her teachings that are just as incorrect as the racist one? These are innocent people seeking to come to the Love of Jesus Christ. People need the Lord and many go searching for Him b/c they know that their life needs a difference. And then they stumble upon the fruits of her junk? Like Ric said, How does he not feel responsible for paying tithes and offerings to a church that continues to support her teachings in the 28 and he not feel convicted that he contributes to false teachings??

Diana, I know you and everyone else are correct that I should stop trying to convince him. And I need to keep hearing it from you !! lol I will stop and really give Him to God. YOu are so right, that being close to Him won't matter in convincing him. I just keep hoping it will. I will tell him one more thing then let it go and that will be what Jeremy said in another topic about "him not doing something stops him from going to heaven which is the same as doing something to get to heaven which = salvation by his own works.
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 252
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracey,
Have you heard from Hrob? If so, please let him know even though his presence is missing from the forum that I continue to pray for him and his new family. You and C, of course, are prayed for too! :-)
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 253
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
Thanks for the book idea. I will check it out. You are right about the scientific brain. My husband needs concrete answers.
Tracey
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Username: Tracey

Post Number: 127
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I actually haven't heard from him, I didn't want to call him and D too soon after getting married. I have been missing him also but with finals, I just haven't had time to check into it.

I will let him know and tell him to get on and say hello to his friends! : )

Tracey
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1254
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the links part of this site you can go to a website called Truth or Fables. On the Truth or Fables you can access an article about the German SDA church under Hitler. It is an extremely interesting article and from the footnotes it can be seen that much research went into this article. It was done by someone through the Univ. of Calif. at Santa Barbara in one of the history departments. WOW! Is about all I can say. The SDA's just made one compromise after another with the Hitler governmant so they could get in good with the German governemental authorities. A branch of the SDA church movement sprung up and called itself the SDA Reform Movement and the SDA's of the SDA church even turned the SDA Reform members into the government. It is something that seems stranger than fiction. You all gotta read this!
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 503
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To be fair, many denominations, Prostestant and Catholic alike, were guilty of compromising with the Nazi regime, or at the very least being complacent. Early on, the Nazi party was actually seen as a reform party that stood for social morality. It actualy had a fair amount of Christian support when it came to power. Add to this the anti-semetic sentiments that existed within some pockets of Christianity and you have all the ingredients for the horror that followed. Christians in other countries were also largely complacent with what was going on in Nazi Germany. Even though there was already some information available about what was happening to the Jews, Americans clung to isolationism and refused to help the British fight the Nazis right up until the time the US was attacked by Japan. In general, the Church was not exactly bathed in glory during this time period.

Chris
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1256
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, several months ago the guest speeker at church was from Jews For Jesus. He made a comment about only through forgivenes from faith in Jesus are Jews now not only willing to worship with Lutherans in a Lutheran church but they are happy to do so. He mentioned how under Hitler many of the Nazi officials did their evil deeds Monday through Saturday and then went to their Lutheran churches on Sunday, not even realizing what the contrast in their lives were. He was an interesting speeker.
Lori
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Username: Lori

Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-1999
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 6:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Over the past year, a SDA relative, who have I spoken to countless times regarding the false doctrines of EGW seemed to have been seeing the evidence clearly. Some of her previous views on more trivial issues, such as jewelry, had completely fallen away and she had even made comments to suggest that her view points on the state of the dead had been altered. (Big surprise since that was one of the last things I accepted...I was horrified a dead relative was going to appear in my room at night if I didn't continue to believe in soul sleep!)

As her viewpoints on these very EGW doctrines were changing I felt like her belief system in EGW had to have altered as well. However, the last time she mentioned one of her altered viewpoints she ended her comment with this statement: "You know, EW is just like the Bible..you must interpret her comments in the time they were written. And, not only that she was human, she made mistakes. You have to account for that as well."

It's just another way to excuse EGW.....
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1193
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 9:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My goodness, Lori--she gives up some of the most blatant EGW distinctives and still excuses her!

You know, I am convinced that the most liberal and uninformed Adventists--including those who THINK they have no need for EGW--are deeply tied to her in ways they don't even know. Just suggest to one of them that she was a false prophet, and they argue or physically flinch. In my opinion, these reactions are one more evidence of the uncionscious but real spiritual hold and demonic influence of the church.

Colleen
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 220
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They love to tear down the Bible in order to lift up Ellen! George Knight does this in his book "defending" (but which really exposes!) EGW. They love to talk about things which are not mistakes at all in the Bible, some of which are not even apparent problems on the surface, except to someone trying to defend EGW and find "problems" they think are similar in the Bible.

Someone who knows us, anonymously sent us a package from the Adventist Book Center containing two books, one of which was Knight's. Both books are now torn up and in the trash where they belong!

Jeremy
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 661
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it hard for you to throw SDA books away? I think it's a hold over from college days and those textbooks that were so expensive, but it's so hard for me to throw books away. But when I received SDA children's books for my son, I kept them under the dresser for a while so if B asked about them, I could somehow "find" them, but after a while, I threw them in the trash. I hated doing it because they spent money on them, and I hated feeling so ungrateful, yet at the same time I was not letting my son read those things, so why keep them in the house??? It was very hard and very easy at the same time.
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven

Post Number: 152
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know what you mean, Melissa, about it being "very hard and very easy." It's hard because of the monetary value, but easy because of the contents. We have thrown a lot of books away, and some of the "tamer" children's books we gave to a friend for her SDA church library. We still have quite a large stack of books piled up separately that we can't throw away because they were given (for borrowing) that we want to return to the relatives they came from. It will be awkward, because at that time we will need to have the conversation that we don't want any in the future either.

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