Some ???'s Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 3 » CAIN AND ABEL - A PICTURE OF GRACE » Some ???'s « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1325
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please, I really want to know something. What is with the Adventists obsession with the Waldennesions? I just can't figure it out. It make no logical sense to me. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. I have read the official statements from he Waldension leadership of the Internet and there seems to be nothing from the official beliefs of that group that would make me think the SDA's would want to latch onto them so much. I know he SDA's thech the Waldo's kept the seventh-day Sabbath and were very persucated by the Catholic church for doing this. Yet, the Waldo's state that isn't true, that they have always observed a first-day Sabbath. I have even talked to SDA's who will tell me that the truth of the Sabbath has always been observed by God's true believers and this is evidenced by the Waldo's. But the Waldo's say differently. I happen to believe the Waldo's should know their own beliefs and their own history so assuming the SDA's are wrong about the Waldo's and the Waldo's are right about themselves hen how come the SDA ledership doesn't just come out and say they were wrong and then just drop the whole thing like a hot patato and leave the entire thing alone. And, who were the Albengensians (?), I think they were French and do they have anything to do with this history and do they fit into this discussion at all? And, how come the SDA's put those two groups together in discussions? Please explain. Thank-you.
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 98
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Near as I can tell, the only reason would be that EGW made a big deal of it in Great Controversy. We all know that she "borrowed" her information from other sources and then told everyone through the book that an angel had whispered it to her.

Perhaps one of her researchers came across information on these two groups and the fact that they were not under to influence of the Catholic
Church during the Dark Ages. Someone who has more information and smarts regarding this, please post.

I read what was said about these two groups in GC a long time ago, and once I found out about the plagerisms I got rid of my EGW books so I can't go look it up now.

Belva
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 912
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, If the SDA leadership say that EGW was wrong, proven by what is written my the Waldensian historians, they will have to look into everything she has written and then have to say she plagiariazed and get rid of her writings and there would go the "pillars" of their beliefs.
The truth of EGW is in black and white here on the internet and in books and they still have not changed and I do not see the leadership changing in mass. One person at a time is how I see it. It would be nice if I was proven wrong. That is why we pray for them every week, so they will see Jesus Christ and forget EGW and admit she is a false prophet.
God is awesome.
Diana
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 230
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, you can read about the Albigensians (aka Albigenses) here: http://www.ellenwhite.org/gc2.htm

EGW praised them and said they helped preserve the true faith. But guess what? They believed that Satan created the world, that Satan inspired the Old Testament, that Jesus was not really human, and they forbade marriage and animal foods, which the Bible says in 1 Timothy 4 is doctrines of demons and is departing from the faith, NOT preserving the faith!!

It completely proves Ellen to be a false prophet.

The Bible says the Albigenses are antichrists for not believing Jesus Christ came in the flesh--THEY WERE NOT "SAINTS" preserving the true faith AS EGW said!

But of course EGW also taught the Gnostic view that Jesus did not really become human, taught that animals foods are bad, and taught against marriage.

Jeremy
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 231
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, the reason the SDAs put those two groups together is because EGW did in the Great Controversy. But the two groups were not similar at all as far as I know!

And the Albigenses almost certainly did not keep the Sabbath since they believed the OT was evil!

Jeremy
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1326
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But, back to my initial curiosity. When I read the official statements from the Waldo leadership they claim to be keepers of the pure truth and that they observe the true Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week. They refer to the first day of the week, Saturday sunset until Sunday sunset as Sabbath. So, the only thing I can figure out is the SDA's hear the word "Sabbath" and automatically ASSUME the person/organization using that word means it the same way the SDA's mean it. I think they just don't get into it any deeper than that. What got my couriosity pumped up once again about this was watching Mark Findley on FFT this morning. He's doing a series on the Waldo's. He somehow linked the Waldo's and the Albigenses together. He said that since the W's were 300 years before the Refermation started by Martin Luther that "the real refermation" goes back to the W's, 300 years earlier. I couldn't figure out his logic (As if SDA's need logic when giving off their statements of truth.) of linking the W's and the A's together. MF also said something about God and satan duking it out ON EQUAL TERMS, or some such word. Whatever. But, what he was trying to convey was that God and satan are equals in their war for hummanity. NOT! God is always the superior. The war for our souls is not equal. The general thought that goes through my mind whenever I watch FFT is that MF sure gets cool vacations all over the world at the expense of the tithe paying sit-in-the-pews Adventsts. I keep thinking about calling the FFT toll-free number and offering my services or those all-expenses-paid trips. I had planned o ditching church today. Then after sitting through 30 minutes of MF on FFt I knew I needed to put Jesus back into my mind so I went to church and guess what? Opening song was "Jesus Loves Me". I am so happy I went.
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1327
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think I get it! Like in the cartoons, the light bulb above my head turned on. I went to the Catholic Encyclopedia online. I looked up the Waldensians. Apparently the Waldo's wore sandles. Th word for sandles is "sabots". So the Waldensians were known as the "sabbatati's" because they wore sandles. The words "Sabbath" and "Sabbatati" to a Seventh-day Adventist would automatically indicate Saturday-sabbath observance. As in the Sound of Music, by george, I think I've got it. Whataya think? Am I making sense? After all, I am trying to firgue out the reasoning of the SDA's.
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 913
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan_2,
A suggestion only-DO NOT Watch M. Finley any more. You and all of us know that what they believe is not Biblical and that there is no rhyme or reason to how they put things together unless EGW said it and then it is so. We know she is a false prophet. So why put yourself through all the jumps and twists of mind???
I watched a Baptist sermon this morning. It was right from the Bible talking about Abraham obeying God. One thing I have noticed when listening to Christian sermons on TV. They choose a topic and do not jump from book to book of the Bible to prove their point. The same thing happens at my church. Everything is read in context. I am truly blessed by it and God shows me again how awesome He is.
Diana
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 160
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Part of the SDA fascination with Waldensians and Albigenses is to prove the idea that God had His remnant church, as a specific church group, throughout history and that SDAs are just the final remnant church in this long line. If the SDA church were to admit that these earlier churches did not hold the "truths" attributed to them (or worse yet, that there beliefs were anti-Gospel) it starts to bring into question the unbroken string of a remnant church. It might force the admission that God's remnant isn't about a demoninational teaching.
Bmorgan
Registered user
Username: Bmorgan

Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, On Friday, I heard Dr.J. Vernon McGee, refer to the Waldensians, the "Albigenes", the Huguenots, the Scottish Covenanters and many others. He said they were persecuted for their faith.
I don't think he would be referring to the same Albigenes as you are. The ones he spoke about were definitely christian. Does he have it wrong also?
Bmorgan
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 162
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 7:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no question that they were persecuted by the RCC. But being persecuted by the RCC doesn't automatically make their beliefs true.


Interestingly, Baptists claim them as "ancestors" because, from what I can tell, they insisted on adult baptism. Baptists also include them in trying to establish an unbroken link to the apostles that does not go through Rome, an interesting similarity with SDAs.

http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/rlister/baphist/baphist.htm

This is written from a Catholic source contemporary to the Albigenes.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/caesarius-heresies.html#CHAPTER%20XXI


quote:

Monk.- If they received Moses and the prophets, there would be no heretics. They deny the ressurrection of the body; they mock at any bencfit coming to the dead from the living ; they say that there is no profit in going to church, or in praying there; and in these things they are worse than Jews or Pagans, who believe them all. They have repudiated baptism, and blaspheme the sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ.

Novice.- Why do they endure such severe persecutions from the faithful, if they expect no recompense for them in the future?

Monk.- They say that they look forward to the glory of the spirit. One of the aforesaid abbots, who was a monk, seeing a certain knight sitting on a horse and talking to his ploughman, and thinking him to be a heretic, as indeed he was, drew near to him and asked: " Will you tell me, good Sir, whose field this is? " and when the other answered that it was his, he continued: " And what do you do with its fruits?" "Both my family," he said, "and I live upon them, and I bestow so , me part of them upon the poor." When the monk went on: " What advantage do you hope to gain from such alms? " the knight made this reply: " That my spirit may walk in glory after death." The monk asked '" Where will it go? " and the knight said: " In accordance with its merit. If it has lived a good life, and won this reward from God, it will, when it leaves my body, enter into that of some future prince or king,. or of some other illustrius personage, in which it will find happiness; or if it has lived ill it will enter the body of someone both poor and wretched, in which it will find suffering." The fool believed, as the other Albigenses do, that, in accordance with its merit, the soul will pass through different bodies, even those of animals and reptiles.




Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 537
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 7:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bmorgan, the Albigenes were indeed heretics. It is true that they were cruelly persecuted for their beliefs during the inquisition, but that does not make their beliefs anymore acceptable to Christians. The Albigenes were part of the "Cathar" movement that went under several different names. According to the Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity, the Cathars believed:

"Matter was seen as inherently evil, the creation of the devil; the work of God was the universe of souls, and the path to salvation was their release from sinful flesh. It followed that the Catholic [universal/orthodox] doctrine of the incarnation of christ was a monstrous perversion, and the crucifixion an illusion, since the Saviour could not have been contaminated by participation in the material world. Sexual intercourse was inherently evil, as tending to continue the natural order, and so was the consumption of meat, milk, and eggs, which were the product of intercourse. The sacraments were rejected, and replaced by a simple act of admission called the consolamentum. Those who received it were enrolled in the ranks of the 'perfects' and were bound by the full rigours of the Cathar ethic. Their followers or 'hearers'; were obliged only to support and reverence them and aimed to receive the consolamentum on their deathbed."

Definately a non-Christian cult with similarities to the Manichaean heresy of Augustine's time and the earlier Gnostics. One wonders if protestants aren't a bit too willing to embrace some of these groups, without researching their beliefs, simply because they defied a Pope.

Chris
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1214
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point, Chris.
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 277
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent research, Chris!
Bmorgan
Registered user
Username: Bmorgan

Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Chris,
I had no idea about those groups of people except the Waldenses(because of Adventists) and the Hugenots(I read some children stories) then did a little research about the Hugenots some years ago.
I had never taken note even if I had heard or read about the Albigenes before Friday when Dr. Mc.Gee mentioned them.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration