| Author | Message | ||
| Bartdanr Registered user Username: Bartdanr Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hi All, I think this is my first post--I joined a few months ago, but I have't had time to post until now. I was thinking about the abortion issue the other day, and also thinking about the Adventist view of the Roman Catholic Church as the "Beast." I got to thinking: for all the faults of the RCC (and there are many), they are categorically against the modern Molech-worship of abortion...and for all of the strengths of the Adventist Church (and there are some), they are indifferent to this slaughter, even participating in it in some of their medical centers. Who is more like a beast? Daniel | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 144 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome. Interesting point, and one that is worth pondering. Hope to see more of your posts. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1158 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome, Daniel! Interesting--this very subject of Adventist abortions was the topic of conversation just last night with some former Jehovah's Witness friends who are now Christian. Good point! We look forward to seeing more of you! Colleen | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2004 |
When I was young, foolish, and pro-choice, I used to argue with a girl at my school who was pro-life. Since she was a devout SDA, my best argument was always something along these lines: "The SDA church is pro-choice. If abortion is so bad, why doesn't the church condemn it?" Anyway, I feel bad about that now. I still feel that abortion is OK in the MOST EXTREME circumstances; but definitely NOT as a form of birth control. Even though I am no longer a SDA I still hope that the SDA church wakes up and, at least on this issue, starts to align itself with the rest of the Christian community. I do not understand how any church can be ambivalent about the mass slaughter of unborn children. -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1160 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have a theory about the SDA abortion issue. First, since Adventists do not believe humnans have spirits that are more than breath--that they die as animals die--abortion does not seem to have signficant consequences. A fetus has never experienced independent life, so abortion cannot be extinguishing anything significant. Second, since Adventists are statistically known (as listed in the San Bernardino County rape crisis hotline training manual) to be at statsically high risk for incest, Adventists need some easy way to deal with unwanted pregnancies. I know that sounds crass, but it's a suspcion I have. I also know that Adventism does not seem to have a protective effect on out-of-wedlock sex or affairs, etc. Just my two cents worth. Praise God for redeeming the past and for making us new in Jesus! Colleen | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2004 |
Collen, You brought up a really interesting idea. Next time I get a chance to talk to a pro-choice SDA I will inquire about this. To restate what you said, since humans do not have spirits, unborn babies are essentialy a blank canvas. Although it may be made out of the same material and has the same dimentions as the masterpice, the blank canvas has not yet been painted; it has not experienced anything and is not worth anyting (please exuse my language but the idea that a blank canvas is a masterpiece of modern art is a whole bunch of BS; so don't anyone bring it up). Now if an unborn baby is a blank canvas, than a newborn is nothing more than a few smudges on the canvas. A newborn cannot be worth much either in this case. I wonder if any SDA thinks this way. It's hard to imagine that people would think this way after they have had children; but before hand, this makes a sick sort of sense. -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Pradez2 Registered user Username: Pradez2 Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2003 |
You know, I read an article on the NY Times about a woman who learned she was pregnant. Later on, she found out she had twins. She aborted one because she did not want to move from the city to Staten Island and shop at Walmart's to save money. I ask an American SDA friend, and though he was apalled, he still believed SDA position. My Hispanic relatives still don't believe that the General Conference has such a lackadaisical position on abortion, since Hispanics are more conservative. Still, after showing them SDA's position, cognitive dissonance sets in: they rather believe the pastor than me. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1271 Registered: 11-2002 |
I personally know many SDA's who totally disagree with the SDA church on this topic. I have even had several devout SDA's tell me the Adventist church is probably not anti-abortion because the Catholic church is anti-abortion so they as idividuals think the official church policy of the SDA is "if the Catholic church is for something then the SDA will be against it and if the Catholic church is against something than the Adventist church will be for it". I have had SDA's tell me that they, too believe the pro-life position but then they say that the SDA church is an organization made of people and even though the church may be not right on every topic it still is the most right of any church. It is very convoluted reasoning. Colleen made a comment awhile back that someone in Adventist health once mentioned a certain SDA facility calling it "an abortion mill". Maybe it is partly because the early trimester abortion makes a facility a lot of money for an outpatient procedure with very little risk or overhead. A few years ago the Review had it's front cover about how to deal with the guilt of abortion. It said to purchase a baby doll, give the doll a name and then have a "funeral" for the doll, the baby in proxy. Then get over it and get on with your life. The article about made me puke and I tore it up and threw it away. I wish now I would have saved it so I could mail it to Colleen. However, it was the Review that had this article. Daniel, it is good to be getting acquainted with you. I am eagerally looking forward to learning from you. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 147 Registered: 7-2004 |
So typical to create a series of actions that someone should do to allieve the guilt rather than bring them face-to-face with a Savior that can heal them. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 869 Registered: 3-2004 |
I was discussing abortion with my son recently, while I was in Texas. Abortion is not mentioned in the Bible. I researched my Bible when I returned home about pregnant woman and all I found is the verse, which my son had quoted to me. It is Exodus 21:22 - 25 If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. It does not say if that serious injury is against the woman or the baby. In my Life Recovery Bible, new living translation it reads also "give birth prematurely". In my Modern Language Bible it reads....a pregnant woman is it, so that she miscarries, but is not otherwise injured, the offender shall be fined by the woman's hsband with consent of the judges. But if there is further harm, then it is life for life,....The life of the fetus was taken, so the further harm would be against the woman. I am not for abortion, so can you give me texts from the Bible that support no abortions or why you support no abortions. I cannot give a Biblical reason. I just think it is wrong and the fetus already looks like a very small baby. I also have the opinion that since I belong to Christ and the Holy Spirit is working in me that God does not want me hurting my neighbor or supporting any hurts towards my neighbors. If God in the OT considered this a personal injury/ property issue and it is in the chapter talking about personal injuries, then what other Biblical reason do you folks have? I used to be pro choice, but have since changed my mind, when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. I discussed this else where on the forum earlier this year, but got no Bible texts. Diana | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 870 Registered: 3-2004 |
Oh, welcome Bartdanr to the FAF. Glad you decided to post. Please tell us more about yourself. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2000 |
Diana, some other Scriptures that are relevant to the issue of abortion are the following: Ps. 127:3-5 Ps. 139:13-16 Isa. 44:2 Obviously, the Bible does not specifically talk about "abortion" but it seems clear to me from these Scriptures that even when a fetus is still "unformed" in the womb, it already has a specific and personal identity to God, who already has placed its name in His book, and has determined the exact length of the person's life on earth. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 872 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks Bob, I have so much to learn and I know so little. It is so good to be able to say, I do not know, but I will find out. I do not have to think I have all the answers. I want to absorb every thing all at once. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 266 Registered: 4-2000 |
Regrettably, while still devout Seventh-day Adventists, Sylvia and I even attended an abortion rally on the steps of the Nebraska State Capitol. Wow, how could we have ever believed such nonsense? Interestingly, across the street was a Pro-life demonstration. Law enforcement personnel were on duty to keep us separated. How can Adventists continue to call themselves "commandment-keepers" when they sanction the murder of unborn babies? About two miles from our home is a granite slab and headstone marker on a grave inscribed in memory of all the aborted babies, "Their names known only to God." Sylvia and I had somber reflections as we visited this gravesite memorial. Adding extra meaning and drama to the memorial were Catholic children at recess running all over the place. Yes, Susan, I agree that Adventists like to hold opposite views from Catholics. Historically, this factor also included their reluctance to embrace the biblical truth of the Trinity until the mid-1890s. Sadly, I used to believe that the abortion issue was just another way for the Protestants and Catholics to unite on something. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Pradez2 Registered user Username: Pradez2 Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2003 |
You know, as I read above about your SDA friends not questioning SDA on abortion, while they believe otherwise, it amazes me how cognitive dissonance reigns supreme. WHY don't they question authority. I wonder if that is the reason so many of our pastors get Psych master degrees at Andrews. I say it tongue-in-cheek, though the possibilities nag me some. That's why I no longer let a pastor dictate diddly squat to me--a scar that will take time to heal. If the bible agrees with what he or she says, then I engage, otherwise, to the trash heap. My mother accompanied a coworker in Puerto Rico to get an abortion twice. The islanders are still people who hold conservative views when it comes to abortion. Now I know WHY she did that. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 182 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen stated, "I have a theory about the SDA abortion issue. First, since Adventists do not believe humnans have spirits that are more than breath--that they die as animals die--abortion does not seem to have signficant consequences. A fetus has never experienced independent life, so abortion cannot be extinguishing anything significant." Yes, I believe you are absolutely correct on this although as SDAs I doubt we really thought it through that deeply. I know I was impacted by the Exodus 21 scripture and believe there was an article years ago in the Review to the effect that showed that was why the issue was confusing and the church would not take a stand. One thing to consider at this Christmas season is about Jesus. Was Jesus a person before birth? Who could possibly consider that there was nothing to Mary's pregnancy prior to his birth? The Holy Spirit brought that to me a few years ago as I was again changing preconceived SDA views. Praise God... | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2004 |
I have to admit that I don't think many adventist are heavily invested in this topic because they believe so wholeheartedly in abstinence. It really is like the proverbial ostrich in the sand. They just don't see it as having a great effect on them, so they say nothing. Also that they don't like being seperated out. Waco freaked most adventists out. anytime the SDA church is mentioned in the news they cringe. I am amazed that the SDA church is willing to make broad sweeping judgements regarding a variety of subjects that don't seem to be biblical (IJ, jewelry, wine, etc) but shy away from that which, while not specifically addressed, seams to be out of the pleasure of God. I have told several people lately that the SDA church is more concerned about "being right" than it is about "doing right". We can be so proud of our doctrines that we don't deal very well with being God's hands and arms.... | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 873 Registered: 3-2004 |
I want to make sure I am understanding you folks correctly. I have read the texts in Ps 127 & 139. From this it appears to me that because children are a heritage and a reward from God and that God sees the fetus/child when it is unformed and all its days ordained for them are written in God's book before they come to be that it is in my best interest to take care of them while they are yet unborn. In the notes in my Bible explaining son/heritage it reads: children are a gift-not the mere product of virility and ferility. Heritage: Emphasis here is on gift rather than possession. But perhaps more is implied. In the OT ecomony, an Israelite's "inheritance" from the Lord was first of all property in the promised land which provided a sure place in the life and "rest" of the Lord's kingdom. But without children the inheritance in the land would be lost, so that offspring were a heritage in a double sense, reward from him. Bestowed by God on one who stands in his favor because he has been faithful. What is a "whoa" moment for me was where it says that all its days are ordained for them before they come to be. That hit me hard. But I am glad it did. I can understand now that it is not just a bunch of matter that is being gotten rid of with an abortion. It is a potential child with a soul that God cares about and has that child's days ordained. I knew I did not like abortion, and I dislike it even more now. Thanks again for those texts. Diana | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 289 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bottom line...abortion to SDA is just another way of "keeping appearances"...looking the part. In their minds, being perfect can be achieved because Jesus proved it could be done...they tell themselves that at all costs people have to see them as being good...hence...they have "Bill Clinton" sex without it being sex! When a "mistake" can visibly be seen, like pregancy, then just get rid of the evidence and you are back to being perfect. It's more of a sin to let parents down because their child is no longer seen as "perfect", than it is to have an abortion. Very sad and convoluted! GIVE ME JESUS! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 148 Registered: 7-2004 |
Actually I think abortion is another case where many SDAs continue to give the Church a "free pass" even when they personally disagree. Since the church is THE Remnant church, there is a tendency to gloss over these "minor" points, so long as the Church is correct about the Sabbath, and EGW, and the state of the dead. SDAs have become very good at turning a blind eye to their church leadership in a number of areas. |
