| Author | Message | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 669 Registered: 7-2003 |
http://www.adventistreview.org/2002-1524/story3.html Somewhere in that story, Paulsen talks about salvation being linked to being adventist. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 670 Registered: 7-2003 |
Also, B has said the same thing about me your relatives say about you...the only reason I can't see the "truth" of adventism is I'm influenced by other people (like those on this forum) and am "unwilling" to study it for myself. It's quite insulting and completely false, but since when has "truth" mattered to him anyway? I told him he could check it out for himself, but he refuses. He just can't accept I figured adventism out by reading their own literature, with only affirmation coming from the formers after I reached my own conclusion (guided by the Holy Spirit, I'm sure). B is exactly like your relatives. Wouldn't come to church with me even just to keep the peace and only buys SDA books, etc. (though he will buy non-SDA books if an SDA recommends it....) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 538 Registered: 7-2003 |
Someone evidently said the name "Dale Ratzlaff" to my in-laws. So now, whenever they confront my wife, they make allusions to how she has been influenced by "that bitter man with an axe to grind". They have really latched on to this and continue to make reference to Ratzlaff and his influence on us. I find it to be quite patronizing and misguided. As much as I appreciate Dale's work and find it to be an invaluable resource, he is not the reason we left. We left becaus of the Holy Spirit leading us through the Bible. But just try telling that to my in-laws. I'm so curious as to who mentioned the name to them and why they've decide to latch on to it as an explanation. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 671 Registered: 7-2003 |
http://www.sdaoutreach.org/alarmingcomments_may2002.cfm This is the webaddress from Mark Martin's site where the article is "highlighted" if you want to find the specific comments I was referring to. But I did read the whole article to verify it wasn't out of context somehow. Chris, do your inlaws ever sit at your house and potentially run across some literature laying around? That's where B gets most of his information...snooping through my papers I have on my desk or elsewhere in my house. (Though I did give him one of the red books to read at some point ... ) I print out conversations from the board some times so I can read them later, and he gets irritated when he sees them... He thinks that is my sole source of information. And funny how everyone else's SDA experience is wrong except his. He's just grasping at straws because he can't look at the truth square in the face. | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 60 Registered: 12-2003 |
My, it's so interesting that the same types of interactions with sda's occur repeatedly among those who have left. BTW thank you for the links Melissa, I'll look at them. Like Chris, our leaving has been 'pinned' on a gospel oriented sda minister/friend of ours who is no longer pastoring. It's been said that he is the one who led us out of adventism (incidentally he remains an sda). I've found this highly offensive as neither my husband or myself are all that gullible that we could be blindly led by someone else's teachings. We've assured them that this has been our own decision based on our personal study but I'm just as sure they don't believe us. It's too bad they don't realize how impossible it is to break away from the spell of sdaism without the intervention of the Holy Spirit. I think it is truly a miracle of God when someone's eyes are opened to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus! Only after realizing that adventism was not the 'truth' did we begin finding and reading exposing sources. The sda books that used to line my living room bookshelves have been replaced with various Christian and former-sda publications but my relatives avoid noticing it. Personally, I think they are terrified of being 'led astray' and so carefully shun any and everything that might make them have to think. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1215 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, my--such familiar feelings and experiences! I can't even put into words the deep feelings of frustration, annoyance--even a sort-of frantic desire to explain myself until I'm HEARD!!!--when I get that arrogant dismissal of my personal studying and research and agonizing over the truth that led to me leave. Either we're told we've been deceived, or we're patronized about having been "hurt". It continually astonishes me how Adventists refuse to respond to my statements of fact, of Bible study, etc. It's as if I don't even say anything at all. They "hear" only what they already think. You're right, Spokenfor, about their fear of being "led astray". I know some with whom I have regular contact who argue with everything we might say (not that we say that much to them anymore!), and if we happen to make a point or quote Scripture which they can't easily dismiss, the response is, "Well, I don't know anything about that...", or "We'll see in the end, won't we?" I so often feel that dismissal that suggests I have no integrity much less curiosity of my own. Somehow Adventist do NOT want to hear, much less ponder, the fact that we STUDIED THE BIBLE and became convinced Adventism was wrong! Praise God that His word is reliable and His Spirit enlightens our hearts! Colleen | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yep, we've responded to the few who asked 'why' we left with clear, well articulated letters but in every single case our points and explanations were totally ignored. A couple of people sent replies that listed a few Sabbath proof texts, but for the most part our letters were never answered. Of the few replies we did recieve, this was the most amazing, "in the end whoever is with Jesus for eternity will be the ones who got it right". There is nothing so frustrating as spending hours carefully and thoroughly sharing your heart and mind with someone only to have them completely ignore or dismiss you. It's exhausting. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 447 Registered: 1-2003 |
Why is it SDA hate foot washing and communion? My niece had her boys baptized SDA last week, God only knows why...they don't really attend church and think they are righteous by vegetarianism...but they got them baptized. Anywhoo...my mom asked her if it was a good sermon, she said, "Oh, we left right after the baptism, it was communion." I told my husband that I thought it was pretty rude of her to take her freshly baptized boys and go home...ususally people want to shake their hands, etc. after church. He said, "SDA's don't like communion for some reason." He didn't know why...but I agree...the church used to empty out after song service and announcements, etc. when communion Sabbath came around. I think it may have something to do with the doctrine of perfectionism and Ellen. Any thoughts? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 234 Registered: 10-2004 |
I would like to post the comments from current SDA President Jan Paulsen for any lurkers that may be reading this.
He is saying that someone who has not "seen the light" or "known the truth" can be saved as a Catholic, but he, since he already knows the "truth," would be lost if he left the "true remnant church" and never returned to it. And SDAs don't believe they already have salvation in any sense--they believe that salvation does not happen until the Second Coming. I believe that is an accurate "interpretation" of his comments. Has anyone else noticed that his name is the same as the Pope's? Jan Paulsen=John Paul II  He is the SDA Pope. Jeremy | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 196 Registered: 3-2004 |
Pheeki, I've always wondered if they would be different if there wasn't the foot washing part. Thoughts on that? But I do believe you're right about the perfectionism part of having your heart right. Remember Susan's story about MBA? Praise God... | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 540 Registered: 7-2003 |
Pheeki, in my experience SDA churches really do clear out when it's communion. I know my wife and I would always leave or just not go when we found out it was communion. I can't speak for others, but I can tell you why I disliked it. Rather than seeing communion as the sign of the New Covenant, rather than seeing it as a celebration of a completed work, I saw it as something that required me to reach a certain level of holiness to be worthy of it. I never felt holy enough or worthy enough to take communion so on the rare occasion when I did I felt guilty and hypocritical. I believe this view of communion is fairly wide spread in Adventism. The last time I was at the large Colleve View SDA Church in Lincoln, NE for communion, the head pastor actually said that we needed to go participate in foot washing "because just like little children, we can't come to the table unless our hands are clean." In other words, if you're not purified in some way, you are not worthy to partake of communion. SDAs tend to see the foot washing portion of their service as a rpeatable baptism. Then there are those who grew up as cultural Adventist and knew or cared little about the theology. My wife was one of these. Her comment was that she didn't like communion because "the whole foot washing thing was just wierd and gross". :-) Perhaps it seems ironic that we selected a church that practices communion at every service. But I can tell you we now both truly enjoy partaking of the Lord's Table every Sunday as we worship togehter. It is a blessing and it is very very meaningful. Chris | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris, I think you have nailed the issue exactly regarding why SDAs have an aversion to Communion. My church also practices Communion at every service. It is the central focus of the worship, and never becomes trivial or meaningless for me. Many of my friends at church say the same thing. Communion is highly meaningful for us when we understand and are participating in the New Covenant! | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 541 Registered: 7-2003 |
Melissa, I'm pretty sure that someone in the large SDA community here talked to my in-laws about Ratzlaff. I suspect it was a certain retired professor that lives down the street from Dennis and loves to debate with Dennis. I seriously doubt that my in-laws saw anything laying around the house. We were upfront with my in-laws about leaving and even arranged a meeting with them to tell them what was happening so they didn't hear it from others first. However, since that time things have been so ugly that my wife goes out of her way to pick up and put away anything that might be the least offensive to them. When they are at our house, for all anyone can tell we might be practicing SDAs. This is especially apparent on Friday night and Saturday when we accomodate their consciences rather than our own. I want to be clear that we have been very up front with them about what we believe, what we don't believe, and how we live as a result. There's nothing that they don't know. But somehow it seems like the most loving thing not to push our freedom in their faces when they are around. Perhaps this approach just helps foster their denial, but it's hard to know what the truly Christ like thing to do in this circumstance is. At any rate, I'm pretty sure they never saw any of our Ratzlaff books or articles laying around our house. However, I may have briefly mentioned his name, along with several other pastors, during our formal meeting with my in-laws. I was told that if I just talked with someone and really researched this I would see how wrong I was. I stated I had done much talking, praying, researching and studying, and so had a whole host of pastors who had come to the same conclusion. They said they doubted this to be true. Sigh.... Chris | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris, I have a different point of view on "accomodating" the relatives. I would probably accomodate them if I were on their territory (in their home, for example), but when they are in my home, I would not try to hide evidences of my religious views and lifestyle. I am not passing judgment on your way of dealing with it, but for me, to hide if from them in my own home would make me feel I was being a phony, and would be giving them power over my family. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 542 Registered: 7-2003 |
I don't disagree with you, Bob. To be frank, my wife and I have not always seen eye to eye on this. But they are her parents and I think she does have an argument in terms of being loving and adapting your behavior to Jews or gentiles as Paul appeared to do. It's a difficult situation and a source of never ending strife. I would like to think it will get better in this lifetime, but I kind of doubt it. Chris | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris, as I said, no criticism was intended. You and your wife have to do what you think is best. I dealt with a similar situation years ago, and found myself giving away more and more of my family's power and privacy to a controlling, demanding SDA parent-figure. Eventually, I solved the problem by being blunt and adamant about our position. The relative was offended and never really got over it. It changed and limited our relationship, but it also stopped the intrusion into our family life! That is where I am coming from on this issue. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1330 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yeah, Melissa aand Jeremy, That is the quote I was referring to many posts above when I made that comment about some high dude in the SDA church staking his salvation on his church membership. I remember I was at my moms house the day that issue of the Review was in her mail. I was reading that article and I go to those words and I got all shook up (And not in the Elvis Presley meaning of 'all shook up' either.) and I read the statement to my mom and she so casuallysaid something like, "Well I guess hat's o.k. At least he takes his salvatin seriousley." It's very appalling. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 543 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yeah, I understand Bob. This is what we had to do with my in-laws as well. They were putting a lot of pressure on us to attend church with them whenever any relatives were in town. They were always asking to take the girls to SS, wanted to send them the Little Friend, etc, etc. Even though we had already met with them and explained our position and told them that we were leaving, we had to put our foot down and tell them point blank that Adventism is error and we don't want our children exposed to error and we're never coming back. Our relationship is irreperably harmed. Our accomodation to them is not an accomodation in what we believe or how we express our belief. It just means that instead of flipping on the TV when they're over on Friday night, I DVR Joan of Arcadia and watch it later because I know it would drive them out of the house if I turned the TV on. We pick up our issues of Proclamation and lay them aside because we know that that there would be an instant and ugly argument if they saw them. We're doing our best to try to find some way of carrying on a half-way civil relationship even though they know we adamantly disagree with Adventism and do not live like Adventist. I freely admit that I may be wrong in giving an inch in any way shape or form, but I've prayed a great deal over this and haven't received any other strong direction at this point. We'll see. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 673 Registered: 7-2003 |
I used to do what you said Chris when B came over, but finally decided I was teaching my boys to live a double standard...maybe one day they wouldn't stand for their Christian values because someone else might be "offended". For that reason, I woul do not allow B to come over any more on Friday nights or Saturdays, not even to see Jonathan. It's not inlaws, so it's slightly different, but I do know the angst when a proclamation is on my desk and I get the condescending remarks. That's when I decided to put my foot down on it. He would not make the compromises he expects of me, so I decided not to allow him to disregard my beliefs in that fashion as well. You have to do what keeps peace in your own home. God will guide you in his time if you should change your practices. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1218 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, you said it well: "He would not make the compromises he expects of me..." You know, I hadn't actually thought about it that way before, but that is exactly true of our SDA relatives, as well. Right about the time we were leaving the church we had to decide not to allow the relatives to stay with the boys if we were gone. (Fortunately, they were finally old enough not to need anyone to stay with them on most occasions.) The final straw for us was when the younger son (about age 10 at the time) reported that at bedtime, they didn't pray with the boys and hug the 10-yr-old and tuck him in. Their anger over our leaving the church caused them to withdraw from their grandsons. That did it for us--our children didn't need shunning by people they loved. Since then, the anger has not abated, but we have arrived at compromises that are more comfortable (compromises that have taken us seven years to accomplish--and we still might experience changes). We now see them privately on a regular basis when no one else is present, and we can give them undivided attention for about an hour or two. They are much happier without actually seeing any of the other people in our lives. We have no food issues this way (unless Grandpa sneaks chocolate from the candy dish), and the conversation can remain fairly innoccuous. The boys are old enough now to be completely autonomous in their relationships with Jesus and their commitment to Him, so that subject doesn't surface. We keep most literature out of the way. They've asked to be taken off the Proclamation mailing list. (My sis, a non-SDA but a fairly liberal "Christian", asked not to be put on.) This "relative" issue is a painful one--but God still wants to use even these relationships and redeem them for His glory. Big sigh. Colleen |
