| Author | Message | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 261 Registered: 5-2002 |
Let's see what the "authority" on the subject had to say... Test of the Heart.--This ordinance of feet washing was made a religious service. . . . IT WAS GIVEN AS SOMETHING TO TEST AND PROVE THE LOYALTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD (emphasis mine). When modern Israel observes the sacramental ordinance, this ceremony should precede the partaking of the emblems of the Lord's death. This ordinance was given for the benefit of Christ's disciples. And Christ meant all that He said when His lips uttered the words, "I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. . . . If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them." He designed by this to TEST THE TRUE STATE OF THE HEART AND MIND of those who participated therein.-- Manuscript 8, 1897. Apparently God can't know someone's heart unless He puts it to some observable test... And you thought the Sabbath was the only test! | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 92 Registered: 4-2004 |
Even as a kid I never quite bought into the footwashing idea. Early on I had read enough history (I'm a history fanatic) to know that this was a traditional mandate for that culture, in fact for most mid-Eastern cultures. I think that if the context of the story is properly understood, the foot washing had little or nothing to do with the Covenant. SDA is very keen on pushing Jesus' example here. Wonder why they don't follow His example for the actual meal? Things like real wine and the traditional big, flat unleavened loaves of bread that had to be torn apart and were usually so tough and dry that the pieces had to be dipped into the wine bowls in order to be eaten. To do that would truly be following His example. Dane | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 249 Registered: 10-2004 |
When Jesus says that He gave us an example to follow, He is obviously talking about serving one another. How are SDAs serving each other by washing their (already-clean!) feet? Especially if the person hates the whole thing and is uncomfortable with it, how is it serving them to "torture" them?  "Jesus replied, 'A person who has bathed all over does not need to wash, except for the feet, to be entirely clean.'" (John 13:10a NLT) And the footnote says, "John 13:10 Some manuscripts do not include except for the feet." So, according to Jesus, if you're not dirty, you don't need to be washed. Why then do SDAs think that they should wash each other's feet, when they are already clean? And they even make sure they wash their feet before coming to church, so no one has to see/wash their "dirty feet"! It is just not Biblical at all. Jeremy | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 262 Registered: 5-2002 |
I was taught that it was to teach us to humble ourselves. In fact, in the church bulletin it was commonly referred to as "The Ordinance of Humility." | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 279 Registered: 4-2000 |
The SDA teaching of foot washing makes the rite a literal "sample" instead of an "example" of true humility. It is simply another opportunity for legalists to actually be doing something tangible. Doctrines should never be based on only one verse of Scripture. Only the Gospel of John mentions the occasion of foot washing. However, all four Gospels mention the bread and the wine--the Lord's table. Several years ago, some larger SDA churches started so-called "family communion" to make it more aestetic and comfortable for all. I overheard a well-known participant in one of the footwashing rooms at the College View SDA Church say to an old friend, "Wash them real good." Such comments are most sacrilegious. In smaller SDA churches, where everybody knows everybody, they have real problems serving participants that even have alcohol on their breath or are known adulterers. I remember when growing up in a SDA country church where one time the communion table was nicely set with a white linen tablecloth. The emblems were nicely displayed on the table as usual. However, the pastor had to announce that communion was postponed because the water was too cold for footwashing (this church had no indoor plumbing). Being a staunch legalist, the pastor felt that he could not officiate at a communion service without footwashing--not even once due to cold water in milk cans. Oh yes, if the local pastor was not ordained, the local church would ordain him as a local elder so that he could officiate at the Lord's table. Also, the oldtimer Adventists in western North Dakota believed in only "this cup." They felt that modern wine glasses in a tray were an abomination. So, there were two large glasses of grape juice--one for men and one for women. You see, I grew up in a SDA Church where the men sat on the right side of the center aisle and the women sat on the left of the aisle (no mixed seating for any reason). The idea was that sitting next to the opposite gender might divert your attention from sacred themes. I still remember the large glass of grape juice that was passed from one participant to another with a white napkin to quickly remove the saliva of the previous participant. Talk about being gross as well as being a public health hazard. If you were unlucky enough to sit in the back pew, you would have to contend with saliva from dozens of people. Oh yes, I remember the days when women still wore cotton stockings instead of nylons. The stockings were usually attached to a girdle, so the women had to reach up under their dresses to unsnap their stockings from their girdles for footwashing. With a roomful of women doing this simultaneously, it almost reminds one of a lesbian fellowship. Speaking of humility, there is a minimal amount of humility (if any) when contemporary Adventist women wash their feet with their nylons on. In family communion, my wife would remind me to very carefully put only a little water on one side of her foot (never the whole foot) so towel drying would be easier through the nylons. I am told that walking around in high heels with wet nylons on could be rather uncomfortable--even hard on interior linings. Is this what Jesus intended for us to do? I seriously doubt it. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1234 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wow, Dennis, you had REAL communion as a kid! One thing I remember is the competition among the deaconnesses as to who made the best communion bread. (Why they couldn't use Matzo is beyond me.) At any rate, I do remember my mom saying that so-and-so's communion bread was just not that good. Of course, her own recipe made with whole wheat flour was excellent. It seems that even in the matter of communion bread, whole wheat flour was more noble than refined white flour. The very idea--besmirching the sacred bread with white flour! Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 164 Registered: 7-2004 |
My mom's communion bread is the best (in my opinion). In fact, it's just a simple whole wheat cracker recipe, which I have. Growing up, we often had these crackers baked up specifically to go with homemade soup. I've made it a few times myself for home, and the kids love it. The best part about making it at home is you can eat all you want of it. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 300 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, You make me laugh and I have thought several times (when you are exceedingly clever and sarcastic) that what you say and the way you say it is very much like my SIL of the "old days"!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1237 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Dd--your SIL of the "old days" always used to make me laugh! In fact, I used to note that when I was with her, she always made me feel uncommonly witty--it was a characteristic of her personality that I always treasured! Sigh. Sorry, everyone--Dd and I just had detour down Nostalgia Lane--we're back now! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1338 Registered: 11-2002 |
When I was a little child I went to Canada with my parents, in fact we went there often but it is just this one trip that I'm going to refer to. The ancestors back in their native lands as I understand family history were Catholic. Then when they came to the new country, weather it be the United States or Canada they wanted to make new starts and this included getting a new religion. My dads parents went the SDA route. However, many of his kin became Menninites. We attended a Mennonite church in Canada with those kin when I was small and the men sat on one side of the church and the women and small children sat on the other. All the women wore bonnets. The bonnets were like the Olsen women wear in Little House on the Prairie. Now about Communion. As a child in the SDA my parents would totally ditch church if it was Communion Sabbath. They don't even call it Communion. They call it The Ordanance of Humility. If my parents didn't know it was going to be Humility Sabbath then after SS but before the service started they would ditch. The Worldwide Church of God did it only once per year, at Passover. This is how my parents tried to make me believe. They told me the SDA was wrong about the way it was done. I love partaking in Communion at the Lutheran church. It is WONDERFUL! | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 253 Registered: 6-2004 |
I never cared for the foot washing observance. I only did it twice since I was only in the SDA for a year but it was not a comfortable experience. They put all the guys in one room and the women in another. You should have smelled that room when the guys all took off their shoes. cough - cough - | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 453 Registered: 1-2003 |
Raven, post the recipe if you don't mind. That speck of communion bread always left me wanting more, but I thought the recipe was sacred...I didn't know we could eat it with soup! | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 555 Registered: 7-2003 |
This brings up a childhood memory. My older sister once made communion bread (whole wheat cracker) at home just for me so I could taste it when I was little. I was so curious about what communion was like. I don't know if this would have been considered sacriligous or not, but it sure was sweet of her. Chris | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 280 Registered: 4-2000 |
PS: I forgot to mention that it was very typical that the minister and head elder that officiated at the communion table, usually did not wash their hands after footwashing. For one thing, the water supply in milk cans was limited or even depleted by the time footwashing was over, and the there was no indoor plumbing. So, they simply broke the bread in front of the congregation with their unwashed hands. The vast majority of people did not know about this nor even entertain the thought of uncleanliness. --DJF | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 255 Registered: 6-2004 |
Ewwww, Gross! I'll never be able to take communion again without that lovely thought popping into my head....thanks Dennis. :-) You know, the weird part is, the SDA's like to hold to those OT laws, you'd think they pay special attention to washing the hands before eating. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1242 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! Good point, PW! Some churches now put a few drops of disinfectant into the water before ladling it out to the participants. You know, it's hard to mix the sacred ceremonies with the "right arm of the message" and have it all be congruent, isn't it? Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 167 Registered: 7-2004 |
Pheeki, I sent the recipe to you by e-mail. I can also post it if anyone else wants it and if Colleen says that okay to do. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1247 Registered: 12-2003 |
Goodness, yes--I'd like to see that recipe too! (One more way God redeems our past...!) Thanks, Raven!! Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 171 Registered: 7-2004 |
Okay, are you all ready to have "communion bread" on a regular basis with your soup at home? The title of the recipe is actually "Whole Wheat Crackers" but I know this exact recipe is also used for communion bread. Put 1/2 tsp. salt in mixing bowl Put 1 heaping Tbs. sugar in bowl with the salt, then add: 9 Tbs. cold water; stir well then add 6 Tbs. oil 2 Cups whole wheat flour Now use your hand (make sure it's washed clean!) to mix until it gets about like putty, then take and roll in a ball. Cut in half, use 2 sheet pans, putting each in a pan and roll thin. Bake about 10 minutes at 350 degrees. Keep your eye on the oven so you don't overbake. I added that part in about washing your hands, for Dennis' benefit! Although the recipe doesn't say, I really think after it's rolled out and before baking, you're supposed to use a knife to cut half-way through for the squares. That way they break apart more neatly after baking. Obviously the thinner you roll it, the crispier it will be. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 926 Registered: 3-2004 |
Raven, I have that recipe also. I was looking for it as you were posting it. I used to make communion bread when I was an at home Mom after my son was born. I really liked it. If I remember right, and I cannot confirm it as I threw away all my EGW books, but this was supposed to be a special thing only for communion. When I was a little girl my oldest sister used to take me to the back of the church, on communion Sabbath, and get some of the communion crackers for me. The women of the church did not like that, but she did it anyway. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1344 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have friends who are involved in a ministry of bringing the gosple to Mormons. They have told me Mormons use water in communion. They don't even use grape juice as a subistute for wine, they just use plain water. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 679 Registered: 7-2003 |
I am so "cityfied". I didn't even know there was a recipe for making homemade crackers. Am I out of touch or what. I'll try that for my kids. I'm sure they'll get a bang out of that. We can use cookie cutters and make shapes. Of course, that will be after more of the boxes are gone.... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1253 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks, Raven! I'm going to try it! Colleen |
