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Message |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1354
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 4:12 pm: |     |
There are only two groups who believe the Catholic church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. These two groups are the Catholic church and the SDA church. The rest of the folks within Christianity actually study the historical information about this and learn why now most Christians make Sunday their main church going worship day. |
Margaret
Registered user
Username: Margaret
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 11:24 am: | |
I am very grateful to this website for freeing me from the grip of sick fear and depression which I had for six years since my first encounter with SDA, and which held me even after I had given up my membership after a disagreement on an issue in Sabbath school. This release came just before Christmas when I discovered this website. I am hopeful that I can gain some insight into some lingering questions. I have other people in my life who have been affected in some way by SDA.
1 John, especially chapter 3, speaks a lot about sin and God's commandments (plural) as well as commandment (singular) and about sin being lawlessness. I am wondering if anyone can help to clarify for me what exactly John is teaching here? I wonder a lot if he was referring in any way to the 10 commandments. I am particularly concerned because of Jesus' warning in Matthew 7 that he will turn away those that practice lawlessness. I also wonder which commandments exactly Jesus meant in Matthew 5:19.
Hopefully yours,
Margaret |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 275
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 12:00 pm: | |
Margaret, welcome to the forum! We're glad to have you here.
I think it's important to see how John himself defines what he means by "commandments" in the book of 1 John. In 1 John 3:22-24 (NASB), he writes, "and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
So John is telling us that "His commandments" are to believe in Jesus and love one another--not the 10 Commandments. This definition of God's commandments is also important to keep in mind when reading John's other writings, such as Revelation, where he talks about the "commandments of God." John never in all his writings uses the Greek word for "commandments" (entole) to mean the 10 commandments or the Law. When referring to the Law he uses the Greek word nomos.
Regarding the word "lawlessnes" in Matthew 7, etc., that word is translated "inquity" (KJV) and "evildoers" (NIV). There is certainly no reason to think that it means the Ten Commandments, even if it was referring to the Law.
In Matthew 5, Jesus goes from talking about the Law to talking about His "commandments," His teachings that He was teaching them there in His sermon on the mount. He says, "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments..." He's talking about what He was teaching them.
But in any case, there is no reason for us to have fear, when we understand the true gospel of grace--that we aren't saved by our works in any way, but that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ's life, death, and resurrection alone. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 10:13, and many others.)
God bless!
Jeremy |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 103
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 12:09 pm: | |
Dear Margaret,
I'm no minister, but my understanding is that the original Greek is very clear. The words used in 1 John are easily translated into the word "directions" and refer to the recommendations that Jesus made to his disciples in the book of John on that last night they were together before the crucifiction. Christ knew that the law was about to be fulfilled, so he left his disciples with the "law of love." That is what is usually referred to as the law in most of the NT. The only times you see the "Law" referred to in NT writings it is as a reference to the fact that we are no longer under the condemnation of "The Law."
As for the teaching in Matthew 5:19, Jesus had not yet paid the price exacted by the law, so the law was still very much in effect. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus painted a picture of how true law keeping would look, and if you were to be able to keep the law like that you would have to be divine.
Living in love, as recommended by Jesus, and as the Holy Spirit inspires those who have been saved to live, automatically makes us abhor behavior that is against God's law. The law is eternal, and is the very best example of how pure living looks, but its condemnation of the sinner has been removed by the blood of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Never allow yourself to get caught up in the "doingness" of the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the requirements of the law, then paid the price for our sins. He saved us from the condemnation of the law.
If you are worried about keeping the Sabbath, we do that each and every hour of each and every day. Since Jesus gave his life for us on the cross we need no longer work for our salvation, so we now live in a state of Grace, which is resting on the promises of Jesus.
Belva |
Margaret
Registered user
Username: Margaret
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 12:31 pm: | |
Wow! This is amazing that I received two great responses so quickly.
Thank you!
Margaret |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 38
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 2:31 pm: | |
Welcome, Margaret!
Please know that the fear and depression don't always go away immediately after you leave Adventism. It takes time to get over all of that misinformation and deception that they instilled in your thinking. In fact, most of us "formers" found it took us at least two to three years to deprogram. Hang in there. You have friends on this forum.
Bob |
Cy
Registered user
Username: Cy
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 7:53 pm: | |
Welcome, Margaret. I'm new here, too.
I've been dealing with fear and depression for a long time now (it's been an annoying problem, but fortunately it hasn't significantly hampered my life). I was a life-long SDA and within the past year or so, I've found the freedom offered by Christ. I hope this new knowledge helps with my emotional recovery and growth, and I pray that you'll find peace. Personally, I have to keep remembering that God is in control. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1277
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 8:32 pm: | |
Welcome, Margaret! You are most certainly among friends here.
That question of "commandments" is one most of us have had to grapple with. Jeremy's and Belvalew's answers above point out the fact that helped me: the word in John's books for "commandments" is "entole", and it actually means "teachings" or "sayings", not Torah law. "Nomos" is the word John uses when he refers to the Torah.
In Christ, all the law is fulfilled. In Christ, we are filled with the Holy Spirit--the Living Law that guides every one of our decisions and actions if we surrender them to Him. Jesus, who has been called the "living Torah", presents His own righteousness to the Father in our place.
This freedom in Christ is astonishing. Have you read Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff, Margaret? If not, I highly recommend it--as well as Cultic Doctrine. They're available at dale@ratzlaf.com.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 941
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 9:26 pm: | |
Welcome Margaret,
God brought you here to fellowship with us. He knows what you need at this time and will provide it. Just hang on to Jesus and develop your relationship with Him. That is the most important thing you can do. Read your Bible. It will surprise you now that you do not have the SDA filters on.
You will find as we all have that God is awesome.
Diana |
Margaret
Registered user
Username: Margaret
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 7:32 am: | |
Thank you again to my new aquaintances. My current pastors have tried to help me but just did not have the resources and experience of former SDA's. I am delighted with each of your messages. Knowing the Greek meanings is most helpful and I will certainly have a look at the books. I know I was led to this site through prayer. The day after I found this site, one of the pastors also found it and told me about it. He was excited to know that I had already made contact.
Margaret |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 210
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 8:01 am: | |
Add my welcome to the mix, too, Margaret. Isn't it awesome that God led you to this site just at the perfect moment of timing. It would be great if your pastor could read and become involved if he is someone who might come in contact with more SDAs. You can see on other threads our frustration with helping pastors understand.
Praise God... |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 94
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 9:57 am: | |
Hi Margaret and welcome,
I would suggest that in addition to your other studies, you immerse yourself in Paul's letters, especially Romans and Galatians. If you don't already have a good concordance with a Greek lexicon, get them. They will greatly assist your studies.
Also, as some others here have posted on other threads, its important to become familiar with the "Inductive Study" method. A good source for this at www.Preceptaustin.com (might be .org)
Blessings
Dane |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 579
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 12:10 pm: | |
Welcome Margaret! We're glad to have you here. I am greatly encouraged to hear that your pastor actively sought resources for you. I think that's very commendable and probably means he's willing to help even if he doesn't understand all the nuiances of Adventism.
God bless you in your journey!
Chris |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 143
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 6:46 pm: | |
Hi Margaret!
Welcome to your new family... A real family in Jesus is here. Take my word for it! The people here are encouraging and helpful and loving.
Please go to the main page and look at "links" choose the Calvary church SDA outreach link. There is an excellent audio message on there about the commandments and the Lord.
I am not an SDA but have been affected by it and have found the studies and links at this site very helpful.
Tracey |
Margaret
Registered user
Username: Margaret
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 7:15 am: | |
Referring back to the first post on this thread, it seems easier for Catholics and SDA to define sin since they both still lean on the 10 Commandments. How do we who are not under the Law define sin?
Margaret |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 149
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 8:40 am: | |
That's easy... Just read the words that Jesus said in red ! : )
The parables (some) tell us how to treat others, how to carry ourselves.
Also the sermon on the mount that Jesus gave (Matthew 5),
Also Galatians 5:19-22 tells us about the fruit of the HOly Spirit and the fruit of the flesh. Also, in Proverbs 6:16, it names the things that God hates.
Tracey |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 282
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 8:54 am: | |
Also, remember that the moral principles of the 9 "moral" commandments of the 10 are also given to us in the New Testament/Covenant. And you'll see that the New Covenant actually gives us a much deeper view of morality than the Old Covenant. And we actually have the Holy Spirit living inside us to guide us and lead us and tell us what is right and wrong. We are told to "walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16 NASB).
Jeremy |
Margaret
Registered user
Username: Margaret
Post Number: 6
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 7:23 pm: | |
I found an amazing quote on www.sabbaths.org. It is a dialogue of Justin Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew (150-165 AD), Chapter X - Trypho Blames the Christians for This Alone - The Non-Observance of the Law.
I had been told repeatedly that the early Christians still observed the Sabbath as well as The Lord's Day.
Maybe some did, but, by this record, not all?
Margaret |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 954
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 7:48 pm: | |
I have been reading the book of Ephesians. This is what I read this morning in Eph 4. V. 1-3
"...conduct yourselves worthy of the calling you ahve received with unalloyed humility and gentleness, to bear patiently with one another in a loving way, making every effort to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
V. 29 "lt no foul speech come out of your mouth, but only such as will build up where it is necessary, so as to add a blessing to the listeners.
V. 31 "Get rid of all bitterness among you - bad temper, anger, clamor, abusive language and all balice.
V. 32 be kind toward one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God has in Christ forgiven you."
This gives me a deeper understanding of how to treat my neighbors and a reminder of how God is treating me. I hope this helps.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 8:56 pm: | |
You're right, Margaret. The early Christians did NOT all keep Sabbath. Undoubtedly, many of the Jewish Christians did, but Sabbath was never a command for the Gentiles, and they probably never saw the seventh day as "special". Sunday would have had greater significance, I would think, because to those who had no Jewish background, Sunday would represent Jesus' resurrection.
Colleen |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 586
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 6:58 am: | |
Margaret, there is a scholarly book edited by D.A. Carson called, "From Sabbath to Lord's Day". The researchers interact extensively with a large volume of historical data as well as biblical data. It seems incontrovertable, a historiccal fact, that not all early Christians observed the Jewish Sabbath.
As Colleen said, many of the early Jewish Christians probably continued to worship at their synagogue on Sabbaths, at least until they were thrown out of the synagogue for their beliefs. In addition they would also gather with Believers for a distinctly Christian gathering on the Lord's Day, usually at evening after a day of work (i.e. the Lord's Day had special significance, but was not viewed as a day of rest or a sabbath).
However, with the dipersal of the Jerusalem church in the destruction of city in AD 70, the custom of Jewish Christians continuing to observe the Jewish Sabbath in addtion to Christian gatherings on the Lord's day, faded away. After AD 70, the main growth of the Church was among Gentiles. It is unlikely that many gentile Christians ever observed the Jewish Sabbath unless there was a heavy Judiazing element in their area and then we see Paul counseling them against giving in to this element.
Chris |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 96
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:20 am: | |
Chris,
I purchased and read "From Sabbath to Lord's Day" when it was first published in 1982. As you said, its a compilation of the work of several scholars and it proved extrememly useful to me. I've loaned it to several SDA relatives over the years and after they read it they really don't want to discuss it. Interesting.
Dane |
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