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| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2002 |
I was reading the latest "Proclamation!" magazine and as they discussed past movements or branches of Adventism (e.g., Evangelical Adventism), I remembered some of my dear friends who remain in Adventism, even somewhat proudly, and are aware of the theological problems inherent in the foundation of Adventism. The term "Cultural Adventism" popped to mind. I don't know if many of the parental or 40-something generation are aware of this group as much. I've found Cultural Adventism to be popular among age groups like myself, who are too young to have known of Robert Brinsmead or Desmond Ford ... until we heard Ford's name in passing while at Adventist University theology classes or pastoral training. You see, we didn't know the shaking that came in the 60s, 70s and resulted in the telling 1980 adjustments to the statement of beliefs. We didn't know we were growing up in the wake of a conservative backlash that feared we might hear too much and question the central pillar of Adventism. In my experience (I was born in 1977 and raised in Silver Spring, Maryland, attending the massive Sligo SDA church), I didn't even start to hear about Ellen White's plagiarism until the early 1990s. For those who didn't know what had happened, Adventist culture generates a kind of loyalty. Many of my friends know that Ellen White plagiarized. Many of them don't accept the Sanctuary doctrine, and simply don't care that Ellen White endorsed it so strongly. Some working in the Southeastern California Conference have even said to me that they think it was simply a coverup for 1844. But yet there is a loyalty, and naturally a fear of confronting the things that are wrong. To this generation (Cultural Adventists), they seem to want to forge a new identity for Adventism. I have another friend in Southern California who does know God, but is in pastoral training and being groomed for positioning in Adventist churches. He and a few others I know reject the old Adventist doctrines, but they don't confront the elder generation directly. Now to be sure, when you do confront, it ought to be God's desire. You can't win anyone with information or good arguments (even Jesus couldn't convince those who didn't want to be open), so in all things we must wait on His timing. Yet part of me puzzles at my friends. Perhaps they can't see the damage that comes from leaving EGW and historic Adventism established -- having them remain is simply an open door for spiritual abuse to enter. It's like leaving your back door open when you are certain there are wolves in your yard. Sure, they might not enter and you trust God to protect your family, but isn't this a kind of denial that needs our prayer? I haven't know always what to think, but I've been committing my friends to God. Not everyone who leaves Adventism will leave simply because things in the past were wrong, coverups, lies, etc. To many in the Cultural Adventist generation, those things don't matter much. Of course, there is a fear of *letting* them matter, of staring at them directly and all their implications. Yet at the same time, they are focused on bringing good out of Adventism as it is today. Some even use old Ellen White quotes or even old doctrines to try and cleverly lead people to God's grace, twisting and distorting the original teachings in order to lead their listeners to Reality in Christ. While it's clever, I don't think they realize what hold the old doctrines have on so many --- that when they hear good messages, even messages leading to Christ instead of the doctrines, they will most often receive it as a strengthening of the doctrines. Some of my friends get excited when they make these clever connections, and oh God, I feel grief in my spirit about this... and I can't explain why. Dear God, help us not to be rigid and dogmental in our demands on current Adventists -- that they face the truth; for then, even though we are "right", we are moving in the same way that the Adventist pioneers and zealots have moved. Ours is to be a different persuasion, Lord, one of Love, one of rest in Your ability to convince better than any of our words can. At the same time, Lord, there is an entire generation of Adventists who want to reform from the inside, but are afraid of confronting directly. Many of them are my friends, and I don't know how to pray, Lord. But I know You keep them, and we all have illusions at one time or another or even through most of our lives. Lord, I commit them to You and ask Your Spirit give understanding about this generation to Former Adventists like myself, and to those here who read this. Grant us patience and love, and an ability to truly listen to what Your Spirit does have to say through this generation -- a generation that doesn't have the same flinch reaction to learning about the past that we who've left may have. In Your grace, in Your care, amen. Ramone Romero | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank-you for your wonderful post and prayer.Our job is to love and the Holy Spirit's job is to convict and transform. Thank-you again, Randy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 564 Registered: 7-2003 |
A cogent and insightful post, Ramone. It gives me much to think about. Among the many questions it raises: How do you reach those who are aware that the foundations of Adventism were built in error, that some of those errors live on in the organization to this day, and yet they seem unconcerned? My brother-in-law attends SDA church semi-frequently, maybe every other week or less. He and his wife are definately cultural Adventists. He's very up front about saying, "I don't believe a lot of this stuff, but it's who I am." Adventism is more than a system of belief or a religion, is a cultural identity. Chris | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 174 Registered: 7-2004 |
We know many "cultural Adventists" who have told us exactly that, Chris "I don't believe a lot of this stuff, but it's who I am." These same people cannot understand why we would leave since it's not a problem for them to remain despite not believing in many core doctrines. Come to think of it, I even know some Catholics who have said the same thing! | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2004 |
Ramone, You and I are members of the same generation. It's not surprising that many of our experiences are quite similar. My wife and I only learned of Desmond Ford, Walter Rea and others a couple of years ago, after 30 years of being Adventist. We grew up in the time period when some of the dissenters were writing, yet we knew nothing about it. We had privately rejected EGW, the investigative judgment, close of probation and remnant teachings, but had no idea that there had been Adventist theologians who had reached the same conclusion. Until very recently, we were cultural Adventists. We played the game and publicly kept the rules in order to remain a part of that society. There was and is much at stake: our friends, our family, our identity. However, like you we have decided to give ourselves to God, not knowing what the future might hold. Meanwhile, we too are realizing that we must also give our friends and family to God. So far, none have been receptive to the things we are learning. For that reason, I really appreciated your post and prayer! Tdf | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 305 Registered: 7-2004 |
It's not just you young wipper-snappers who are cultural Adventists!  My husband and I said for many years, "It's full of flaws but it is our heritage..." We have friends who say the same thing. And we were all raised with EGW morning, noon and night. Ramone, the term is a good one. I appreciated your prayer. As a former cultural Adventist (from historic to evangelical to cultural - it is an evolution), it is only prayers that we have to combat the enemy amongst this group of SDA. It is not until the Holy Spirit's whisperings are listened to, that any of these different sub-groups of SDA will begin to change their thinking/beliefs. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1250 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, cultural Adventism is a well-known phenomenon. And as Dd said, it is not limited to the 20-30-somethings. The resistance of the younger cultural Adventists to looking at the core problems of Adventism is, I believe, related to two things--and neither of those things is the changes in Adventism that have occurred over the past twenty years. The first thing is their generation in general. Adventism's conservative backlash has succeeded in hiding some of the more obvious problems from plain view, but in fact, they were hidden from view BEFORE Des Ford and Walter Rea revealed so much. The "worldview" that has shaped the past twenty years--at least in first world countries--has been postmodernism which is marked by deconstructionism and relativism. These ideas have permeated academia as well as religion. They have even challenged the tradidtional objectivity of pure science. In short, these ideas have created a general filter for understanding life that says, "Truth is determined by ME." For example, it's no longer assumed in a literature class, for instance, that the writer actually had a specific "message" or "agenda" for his writing. Instead, literature is analyzed according to what it means to the reader. One is encouraged NOT to interpret literature according to the author's intent; rather one is encouraged to critique it according to one's OWN experience. It's value is personal, relative to one's own experience. It's not intrinsically valuable because it reflects someone's observations and analysis of the world or life. Value is personal. Similarly, in ethics and morality, there is no absolute truth. "Truth" is measured according to one's own experience. Therefore, "truth" for one person may be, "I am pregnant, and a child right now would mess up my life. I will therefore preserve my life and terminate the pregnanacy." Or it might be, "I have no right to assume my neighbor needs to know Jesus. He is a sincere Buddhist, and he honors life and liberty and is tolerant of my beliefs. How can I ctiricize his belief system and call it less 'true' than my own?" Or again, today's relativism might say, "My life is very busy right now. I know I am 29 years old and have been dating my boy/girlfriend for 5 years, but marriage would just get in my way. We are both happy just to keep seeing each other without the encumberance of marriage. We aren't actually having intercourse, so what we're doing can't be sex. I'm not ready to settle down and be responsible for living an adult life yet." The rationalizations of relativism can explain away all the principles of maturity, responsibility, and ultimate reality. This is what is going on in many of the younger Adventists who say, "I have no idea of all that messy historical stuff about the church. I don't read Ellen White--I don't need her. I just love Jesus, and I want other peole to love Jesus. The church really can be different if people just quite worrying about that old history and start focussing on Christ." But if you ask these people to explain why they keep the Sabbath, they have no answer except the glib: "It's a sign that I love Jesus." If you ask them why they can't love Jesus without the Sabbath, they get stuck. Further, if you ask them to explain what makes them sinners, they will have trouble answering. If you ask them what the new birth is (without which we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven), many will not be able to explain it. If you ask them what happens when they die, they will say they sleep in the ground. If you ask them if the Bible is inerrant, they will likely hedge their answers. In short, their Adventism is shallow because they have been taught that reality is personal. Your reality is yours; my reality is mine. You can't negate or criticize my reality because YOU"RE NOT ME. But they are wrong--as much of the spiritual and academic world is wrong. There IS objective truth, and there IS objective reality. As long as the historical detials don't matter, as long as the words of Scripture are "for that time", as long as we ultimately have no truth or reality outside our own experience to which we must answer and according to which we must measure our experience, they can live in their "cultural Adventism" quite happily. Their entire lives are "cultural", in a sense. Culture today gives us permission to create our own truth. Other people's claims of truth don't have to impact us--we are not they! The second reason today's cultural Adventists (of all ages--and there are as many among the "older" generations as there are among the young) is that Adventism literally has a spiritual hold on Adventists. When something is founded in deception and built on lies, it cannot become truthful just because we've lost sight of the beginning. Deception and lies come from one place--and it's not God's goodness. They come from Satan, the father of lies. There is no other option. Either Adventism was established by God, or it was not. If it was not, it was born in evil. There are only two forces in the universe, and there are only two "places" any of us can be: There is God and Satan. We are either surrendered to knowing God, or we are defaulting if not outright choosing to be manipiulated by Satan. There is no "neutral" in the universe. All those who are Adventists, whether they "believe" or not, have some spiritual claim on them from their Adventism. That, I believe, if why it is so HARD for them even to be willing to look at the facts. What began as a lie cannot become "good" without corporate repentance. And an Adventist, regardless of how historic or cultural or evangelical, will never be able to really accomplish reform from the inside without surrendering everything they think the believe, everything they are, everything they do inside--even their worldview to Jesus. Only in surrender to Him with a desire to know what is real can there begin to be hope of "reform". And when God begins to reveal Himself, the truth becomes obvious, little by little. I sometime ask, Would you pray for the Mormon church to reform, or would you pray for its reality to become clearly known in contrast with truth? I agree, Ramone--we cannot convince these younger (or older) cultural Adventists to face the truth. Only God can do that. But there is an absolute Truth and Reality. There is external Truth against which we must see our lives. And so I pray that God will break and expose the spirit of Adventism--shine the light of truth on its true deceptive nature--so all those inside who are blinded and struggling to reform it will see clearly that Jesus alone is all we need. Jesus IS truth, light, life, reality. He will teach us things we cannot imagine. He is greater than everything--and He alone can bring wholeness to those broken by modernism as well as postmodernism. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 174 Registered: 7-2004 |
It is no wonder that SDAs will hedge when asked if Scriptures are inerrant. From the EGW estate describing the contributions of EGW to the SDA church.
One of EGW's contributions to the SDA church, as stated by the SDA church, is the promotion of errancy of prophetic writings, which certainly encompasses Scripture. The real irony about this is that an SDA posted this list and link on CARM to defend EGW. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 261 Registered: 10-2004 |
It seems that some younger SDAs (and other SDAs) don't understand that it's not "historical stuff" but that it's the church's current doctrines. They have never changed those doctrines! It's even still required (per the current official "Church Manual") to believe all of the "historical" SDA doctrines in order to be a member. And their teachings about the Sabbath, the Law, the human spirit/death, etc. are some of the worst doctrines--and almost ALL SDAs at least believe in "Sabbath-keeping" and/or the doctrine about spirit/soul/death. Jeremy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 567 Registered: 7-2003 |
Wow, Colleen! You sound like Francis Schaffer (that's a compliment). Chris | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1345 Registered: 11-2002 |
This is an extremely interesting subject for me. I am already (only) 18 units into my Master's Degree in sociology. Someday I just might (or more likly I might not) pursue the degree. If I do pursue the degree I've been thinking about things to do a thesis on and the one thing I keep coming back to is doing a thesis on the development of cult societies. I, of course, would want the focus to be on Adventism. Obiviousely, I will not be doing this at a SDA university. (Ha!ha!, that was a stab at humor.) I came up with this idea while taking a sociology class at the university that focused on sub-cultures within the United States. Cultural Mormonism was listed in our textbook as a culture. Not just a religion but a sub-society within the larger society. As I was reading the textbook I was struck at the similarities to SDA'ism. And, yes, Ramone I know just what you are refering to. I have a young relative who pastors a SDA church in the same area you speek of and this young fanmily seems to not have any problem with the inconsistances within Adventism. The paster and the wife wear wedding rings. They occassionally eat meat. Their young child takes dancing lessons. I just can't figure out how they can be SDA ministers and do those things. They not only seem unaware but they seem unconcerned about the relavence of any of these issues. Again, I just can't make heads or tails out of it. Very interesting subject. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1255 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, Jeremy and Ric. The problem is that the Adventists who don't understand that they are obligated to the church's doctrines (which have never changed) are in bondage to them nonetheless. By being Adventist, they are in bondage to the entire spiritual baggage. Ramone is right that only God can open their eyes, but I do believe we must still speak the truth about the denomination. After all, our worship of God must be both in spirit and in truth. That means our spirits worship Him, and our heads must be willing to know truth and reality. If we leave out one or the other, we aren't embracing the genuine article! (Sorry, everyone--I'm afraid I've sounded "soap-boxy" again. I guess you can tell when something makes me feel passionate!) Colleen Colleen | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2004 |
I had not realized how far the post modern thought process had gone in the academy I was at not long ago until I helped out my Biology teacher in an advanced Biology class. I was teaching a unit on Bioethics. I asked the students if they thought euthanasia was acceptible as a Christian. I was somewhat suprised when 12 of the 14 students said that they personally thought it was wrong, but didn't think they should push their views on anyone else. Cultural Adventism, really resonates with human nature. If you have been told all your life (or gave up family and community to believe) that you have the truth, why study. That is why, I believe, pastors are telling people who start to question the validity of EGW that you can be an adventist and not accept EGW as a prophet.To much studying would expose the truth. When looking for the source of the adage If you tell a lie often enough, it will become the truth ...Adolf Hitler writes in Mein Kampf (James Murphy translation, page 134): "All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes." Unfortunately, the number of adventist continue to grow, also influincing peoples willingness to question. If 11 million people have made this decision it must be right. When I was at SMC in college, Elder Robert Francis, a bible teacher, used to stand in front of the class and tell us, repeatedly, "Just because 10 million people are doing it, doesn't make it right" He was referring to smoking, and other vices, but it sures applies to the belief system as it is. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wow, thanks everybody, and thanks Colleen for your many insights. By the way, the postmodern influence is particularly strong in the liberal areas of Adventism, such as around LaSierra University in California. I don't know much of the other areas anymore. Among certain faculty members, the traditions of the religion are more important than whether or not it is true ... truth is relative. However, among the majority of Cultural Adventists I've known, the postmodern influence hasn't been as strong (though it is certainly there). The most common way of escaping hard doctrinal questions is, "Well, this is what this doctrine means to me..." I suppose that could be called postmodernism, but really I think it's rationalization to avoid looking at something that might disturb your universe. The surprising thing has been hearing *pastors* use the "what it means to me" explanation when confronted with difficult questions about errant doctrines or statements. In the extreme parts of Adventism, the primary selling point of their claim is that it's "the truth". I.e., that's how they advertise it (and how they believe it -- usually honestly believe it, too). The concern is for truth and they stake themselves on being right or wrong. That is, "this is right", so we must believe it and obey it. While we've been set free from the doctrines of Adventism, at the same time, I have observed many in the mainstream Christian body who are also trapped by a love of truth instead of Truth. Truth is a Person, not a list of facts. Just because something is "right" does not mean that it will grab hearts. Ancient Israel knew "truth" better than any other nation, knew what was best for each other and for their neighbors, and knew what pleased & displeased God; yet they became more depraved in God's sight than any of the pagan nations that surrounded them. Knowing truths and knowing Christ as Truth are often very different things (although certainly truths do exist and we mustn't be shy about them!). There are many Christians of all denominations who need prayer because they follow Christ*ianity* simply because it's "right" without knowing Jesus. (By the way, say "Truth is a Person" and "I know Him" to a non-Christian postmodernist and see what kind of reaction you get!) Having said all that, yes, the real shocker is that when CA's say the old doctrines don't matter, really it exposes a lack of fear of God. But I think that's the nature of 'religion' (versus living relationship with Christ). Religion can be debated and its ultimate reality isn't so much of the focus; the joy is in the traditions, unique beliefs and community. Interesting, I just defined Cultural Adventism again, didn't I? What I really appreciate about the discussion this thread generated is the passion of peoples' hearts. While most of us too have been "CA's" at one time or another, we're now equally mystified at the contradictions in it, and we're equally concerned. Our hearts break in the same places for the ones we love, and I believe we're beginning to understand God's heart for the children He loved so much that He gave His Son for. Once, on my journey out of Adventism, I wrote an article for the LSU newspaper about some of the problems in Adventism and its coverups. It was nearly finished but something was not at rest in me. Then, I can't remember how it happened, but it was as if God let me know, "Ramone, write it as if you were writing it to D--." D-- is an honest friend of mine who really believes in his super-traditional Adventism. As I let this re-define my whole way of looking at what I was going to write, it was like a warmth of concern and care for my friend flooded through me, and I re-wrote the entire article, keeping some of the points, but patiently dropping others. I suppose in closing, I'd suggest that we try posting some letters to our loved ones in Adventism, writing as if to them, but from a place of deep love, concern and care for them. Often we focus on the theological points (which are quite amazing & valuable), but when we write as if to a dear loved one -- whom we respect and know has stubborn streaks like we ourselves have -- maybe then we'll find a way to let out our crying passion (and Father's) for His infinitely beloved kids in Adventism. What do you think? Thanks again for all your replies. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1349 Registered: 11-2002 |
I went to several meetings about how to witness Christianity to Mormons. The study guide and the movie were done by former Mormons who now are Christian. For the movie numerous Mormons were intervied with the main question being, "Why are you a Mormon?" Time after time the response was, "Because it feels right". And, once again I thought of SDA'ism. Especially to those raised SDA not keeping Sabbath as we have been raised to do and not doing this or not doing that can FEEL WRONG. We hasve to remember though that emotional feelings have been taught to us since infancy and therefore can be errant. Sometimes people need to retrain their feelings. How many people are SDA just because "it feels right"? I sometimes wonder that. |
