| Author | Message | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 169 Registered: 7-2004 |
The February 2005 Signs of the Times issue just came. One of the articles was "Freedom from Addiction" written by Doug Batchelor. For anyone who thinks a person can be an SDA and mostly escape any EGW thinking, itís all right there in everything that Doug writes or saysóand I know many SDAís, who would otherwise be considered non-traditional or more modern-thinking, who eat up every word that comes from Doug. This article really floored me, because he shows no mercy in how he judges those who are struggling with addictions. Here are a couple excerpts:
Doug, like EGW, is putting everything in black and white terms, and shows no mercy to those who havenít yet overcome. He does have a couple sentences saying that sometimes it takes years to overcome and not to give up. But he sure makes it clear that if you havenít overcome, itís a sin that still must be overcome, and itís your fault you still have that problem. I happen to personally know of a situation where an SDA member died of lung cancer, and that person had struggled for many years to quit smoking and was never successful. That person had every desire to quit, had prayed intensely about it, and had even been anointed a couple times, all to no avail. I truly believe an addiction can be a healing issue. Sometimes God grants healing requests, and sometimes He does not. According to SDA theology, that person still had not overcome sin, and I guess that means heís lost. Maybe since he was still trying he gets a break, but Iím not sure. Or maybe because of how he died, he had no way of sinning by having a cigarette just before death and he had already asked forgiveness for the last cigarette. No wonder SDAís have no assurance of salvation. What bothers me most about this article is that it treats addiction the same way EGW says any sin is treatedóperfection (or complete overcoming) is required. Addiction is such an external thing, that it would be real easy to judge whoís sinning because theyíre not exercising enough will power, or not aligning their will with Godís will, or whatever they call it. I hope some SDA out there will realize, because of understanding how things are with their own life or someone they love, that Doug is not teaching grace and is not teaching according to Scripture. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 560 Registered: 7-2003 |
It's also rather shocking that DB appears to think that "the new birth" is simply the ability to obey the Law rather than the regeneration of our spirit with a resulting communion between our spirit and God's. Chris | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 254 Registered: 10-2004 |
What really bothers me from those excerpts is when he says that "the power to obey His laws" "IS" "conversion" and "the new birth." According to Doug, conversion has nothing to do with salvation, justification, eternal life, being forgiven, or anything--it's just "the power to obey" the LAW!!! And he doesn't think the new birth or being born again has anything at all to do with a birth or the Holy Spirit's regeneration of our spirits bringing our spirits to eternal life!!! And Doug says that his definition of of conversion is what "Christians" say!!! Maybe SDAs, but not Christians--is he really that ignorant of what Christians believe? Or I guess by "Christians" he means SDAs--the only true "Christians"! Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 255 Registered: 10-2004 |
I posted before seeing Chris' post, but it looks like we're in agreement on this. Jeremy | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 96 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hmm. "Regeneration", anyone have a good definition for that? I guess I always thought it was metaphorical or something, but it just jumped out at me from Chris's post. Seems maybe it means something closer to 'resurrection' or 'rebirth'? Hope this question doesn't sound dumb! helovesme2 | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 562 Registered: 7-2003 |
Basically, when the term "regeneration" is used, it's an acknowledgement that we are spiritually dead prior to experiencing the new birth. We are seperated from God and incapable of truly relating to him or being in communion with Him. For this to change, God, through the Holy Spirit must do something in us. When we experiece the new birth, by grace through faith, our spirit is made alive through the power of the Holy Spirit. We now have a revived, regenerated, or born again spirit that can relate to God and be in communion with God's Spirit. The new birth is really all about a new spirit through the power of the Spirit. Does that help? Chris | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 97 Registered: 8-2004 |
Sure does! Thanks! It's neat to realize there's an actual 'bringing to life'! helovesme2 | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 256 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yes, it is really neat, isn't it? When the Bible speaks of being born again, born of the Spirit, regenerated, a new creation...it's all quite literal--it's talking about our spirit being brought to eternal life by the Holy Spirit!  Jesus makes this absolutely clear: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3:6-7 KJV.)
Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1244 Registered: 12-2003 |
Helovesme2, I always thought of "new birth" as a metaphor, too, when I was an Adventist. They CAN'T believe in true regeneration because they don't believe we have real spirits that can know God. When I realized that being born again meant that the Holy Spirit indwelled me and brought my spirit to life, literally connecting me to God, my whole worldview changed. That's what it means to be "born of God", as John says. We really and truly are completely new creatures--not just metaphorically, but in reality. We have regenerated spirits which are united to Jesus and the Father through the Holy Spirit, and we really are seated with Christ at the right hand of the Father as Paul says. When DB and the Adventists talk about being born again, they are using awesome words to describe a counterfeit. It really makes me quite upset. The only way they can understand being "born again" is to think of the Holy Spirit as somehow making His power more available to our mortal flesh (devoid of any spiritual life or reality) to accomplish the keeping of the law. It's really not a new life or reality. It's just some sort of "divine magic" that's SUPPOSED to help us OVERCOME. They keep bumping into that brick wall of not being able to eliminate that sin. And they can't eliminate it, because, unless they have truly surrendered to Jesus, they still have spirits (they aren't aware of) that are dead in sin. Overcoming isn't even possible, because sin still owns them. Only when we are regenerated does sin not own us. The thing I see regeneration doing is finally giving us the ability to actually make choices to surrender our "stuff" to God. When we're dead in sin, we're fighting sins instead of surrendering them. Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 304 Registered: 7-2004 |
If I remember right...it was "pooh-hood" to say I was "a born again Christian". I do not remember the reasoning behind it...maybe something to do with EGW saying it is arrogant to say we are saved...?? None the less, I was always embarressed by the term even more so when a non-SDA would ask when I had been saved. Any one else? Why exactly was that? | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 170 Registered: 7-2004 |
I think "born again" had a Baptist sound to it, and it seemed connected to "once saved always saved", which is certainly anti-SDA belief. If you've been "born again", then that would sound like it's a one time experience (first birth physical, second birth spiritual--there are no additional births). That would go against the SDA teaching of losing and regaining your "salvation-potential" constantly based on whether or not all sins had been fully confessed. I don't think EGW taught salvation was actually bestowed until the close of probation. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 257 Registered: 10-2004 |
Actually, EGW teaches that salvation is not bestowed until Satan bears our sins, Jesus comes back, and we get to heaven! There is even a quote like that somewhere. Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1341 Registered: 11-2002 |
Is that the same issue that I snailmailed Colleen the two articles I tore out of it-one article about the state of the dead and on the reverse side of the page the SDA explanation of the verses in the NT about we are no longer bound to the festvials, new moons, sabbath days, etc.? I wonder if it is the same issue. However, the Signs is a total rag of a magazine. The authors seem to "talk down" to the readers, I hope you know what I mean. I have told this story before on this forum but there are a lot of people fairly new on here so I will share this story once again. It is totally true. Several years ago I was tossing and turning all night long and I just knew it was useless to even try to sleep. So, I got up and drove to Denny's, the only restruant in the commnunity that stays open all night. There was Jerry sitting at the counter. Jerry is probably in his late 60's. He's a frumpy little man. He does not pronounce his words very well and he is built very different than most people. Some people in the community say he's "develomentaly delayed" but I figure at his age the word "delayed" wouldn't apply anymore. He is a very nice man. He is a Christian and he likes to share his faith and his love for Jesus. Jerry asked me to sit with him so we could visit. The first thing he asked me was if I'm a Christian. Then he invited me to attend the church he attends. We got to talking and he told me for three years he had gone to the local SDA church every Saturday except for the few Saturdays that he was sick. This is a major outing for jerry because his only transportation is either walking, his bicycle or the bus. After three years he honestly considered himself SDA. So he asked the SDA pastor to baptize him and officially make him a SDA member. The pastor refused because Jerry smoked cigerettes. The SDA pastor told Jerry he had to stop smoking BEFORE he could join the SDA. Jerry had told the SDA minister he had it backwards. You first give your heart and your life to Jesus and then you ask the Lord to take away your addictions. The SDA pastor wouldn't see it Jerry's way. Poor Jerry. He went home and cried and felt bad for several days. Then after several days he realized he needed to find a church that put Jesus first. He found a small Penticostal church within walking distance to his apartment and went there the next Sunday. He has never again set foot in the SDA church. The first Sunday at this Penticostal church he shared his story with them. They bapiized him right then and there and asked the power of the Holy Spirit to remove his cigerette addiction. Within several months Jerry had stopped smoking. He'd been smoking around 40 years. He told me he does not even want a cigerette anymore. Now, I have decided Jerry had an insight into the truth of Jesus that very few SDA's will ever get, especially the minister who refused Jerry SDA membership. Jerry was, I believe led by God to ther right body of Christians for him. Several weeks after hearing this story at Denny's from Jerry my kin had a huge family reunion, which included numerous SDA's, some enen ministers and/or conference workers or in other really acclaimed positions with the church. I shared this story. The relatives took sides. It got into a heated debate. It was really interesting to hear my kin defend the SDA minister who refused to admit Jerry into the SDA church. I finily told my kin Jerry was better off not being admitted into the SDA church because he was now admitted into the Body of Christ. It truned into quite a debate. DB totes one hard line. My friend jerry has it right. DB needs to learn from Jerry. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1249 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Susan. I remember having positively creepy, disgusted feelings around people talking about being "born again". I don't remember having specific reasons why it bothered me, but I remember thinking they sounded so ignorant and arrogant. I remember thinking that they had such a simplistic view of salvation, that to them being "born again" was part of a formula, and as long as they had the formula, they were A-OK! I remember feeling very annoyed and quit superior. I understood that there was "much more" to salvation than some primitive claim to being "born again". I truly had no idea what they were talking about except as an abstract concept. I did not understand the spiritual awakening, the new realtionship with Jesus, the security and confidence of His very real presence. I assumed that they used the term as abstractly as I understood it, and I KNEW no one could be saved by just claiming to accept Jesus and be born again the way I understood (or didn't understand!) those terms! I think that much of my disdain for people claiming to be born again was a spiritual reaction to a very powerful reality against which I was innoculated with a blinding dose of heresy that made me believe I had superior "knowledge". Praise God for breaking through my resistance and showing me He is everything! | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 256 Registered: 6-2004 |
I think that pastor in susan's story needs to re-read what Jesus said..."he who comes to me, I will not cast out". What gives this SDA pastor the right to decide who should come to Jesus or who can't...because of a bad habit? I guess this pastor is completely free from any habits and wants everyone to follow his "role model" lifestyle. Please....it's people like that who make me cringe. I'm glad this old man found a real church that welcomed him instead of condemning him. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 677 Registered: 7-2003 |
What I was noticed in Raven's initial post (and it may have just been an analogy) is that smoking can somehow call into question one's salvation. (and I also had the exact same thoughts as Chris and Jeremy that this guy is all about law). My grandfather smoked for 60 years. Then one day, he decided he was tired of it, and quit...without ever picking up another cigarette. I don't think my grandfather was ever less Christian because he smoked. And in God's time, he let the habit go. Now, he's 88 and certainly reaping the benefits of his habit. He has emphysema and is on breathing treatments several times a day. But 88 years is a lot of years. He's never had cancer and he smoked in the day before filters. Back when I was a kid, you'd see the men standing outside of the church smoking their cigarettes because it was disrespectful to smoke in church, but it wasn't considered a 'sin' as it later has been identified. To be sure, there is nothing good about smoking that I can tell. It is a disgusting habit that I cannot understand why people are attracted to it. But I have a cousin who will tell you he knows the health risks, but he enjoys smoking and will continue to smoke. Go figure! Another thing that struck me in the article was the line "That's the way it is with you and me and Jesus." That puts Jesus on the same level as us and God is over him. At least, that's how I read the remark. And again, I echo Chris and Jeremy's remarks about his focus on keeping God's laws. I know I want to have a relationship with God and want to do things that nurture that relationship. Very strange. Is he considered like a "Billy Graham" of adventism or is he considered more on the fringe? Woodroll Kroll talked about the covenants in yesterday's broadcast...and I thought it was very good talking how Jesus new covenant was better than the Moses old covenant. I didn't hear the whole thing, but what I did was good. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 565 Registered: 7-2003 |
Melissa, I think it would be VERY hard indeed for any SDA to argue that DB is on the fringe. DB represents the face of modern Adventism in print, on TV, on radio, on the interent and around the world in various "evagelism" efforts such as the prophecy seminars. DB fronts the Amazing Facts organiztion which is one of the primary evangelistic tools of Adventim. He is a celebrity of sorts within the SDA culture. I would say he is as mainstream SDA and representative as they could possibly come. Chris | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 221 Registered: 2-2002 |
Having been involved in a very liberal, evangelical style, large SDA church, I can tell you that many adventists do not like DB or listen to him....think he's a quack. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 306 Registered: 7-2004 |
And DB is a diamond in the SDA crown...he was a caveman living in the hills above Palm Springs. He stumbled upon a Bible in one of the caves and began reading for himself. He decided to try church. I don't remember the whole story but it has to do with him looking for a church, it was Saturday, he was in his smelly, dirty, tattered clothes and arrived Sabbath morning and was quickly embraced. Does anyone else know his story that could fill in the blanks? | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 115 Registered: 2-2003 |
I've had to listen to his testimony ad nauseum, because my husband listens to him all the time. Believe me, I'm in another room!! Anyway, from what I recall he initially attended a Batpist church and that's where he was baptized. But he says he read about the Sabbath in the Bible and asked several ministers why the Sabbath wasn't kept. He says he got several different answers. Somehow he discovered the SDA church and lived happily ever after |
