Post Number: 109
|Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 7:11 pm: || |
In Studying the new Testament, especially the writings of the Apostle Paul, one verse in Galations really stands out for me. It is Galations 5:19-21 which says, ì When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these EVIL results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasures, idolatry, particiapation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, THE FEELING THAT EVERYONE IS WRONG EXCEPT THOSE IN YOUR OWN LITTLE GROUP, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD...î Please note, Paul said ...THE FEELING THAT EVERYONE IS WRONG EXCEPT THOSE IN YOUR OWN LITTLE GROUP! Wow. This really should hit the sdaís where it hurts. IS the Apostle Paul be talking about the sdaís, jwís, ldsís, etc. In reading the new testament, it seems that the sda stack up more and more of an "achilles heel". Has anyone shown this scripture to an sda before? What is their answer or reaction to this??
Post Number: 179
|Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 7:40 pm: || |
I think the version you are quoting may go a little far with "explaining" the text, rather than just translating.
Youngs Literal Translation (a very word for word translation)--
19And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, 21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.
NASB (less "literal" than Young's, but still a more strict translation from the Greek)
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
When I read "disputes, dissensions, and factions" that could just as easily cut both directions. I am sure most SDAs would see us as doing just that.
"Sects" or "factions" could be understood similar to the statement you have highlighted, but could realistically be applied to a much broader range of Christians (including most, if not all, of us).
Sometimes it may be best to tread carefully with "Scripture clearly says" until we check at least a couple of translations (for those of us with limited skills in the original languages). I suggest BibleGateway.com as a great place to quickly and easily check multiple translations. When different translations all tell us the same thing, we should feel fairly confident about the information. If we need to rely on only one translation, we should proceed with caution.
Of course if most people used this method of Bible study when examining SDA Bible studies, I can't imagine many would become SDA. SDA doctrine is so dependent on the KJV.
Post Number: 110
|Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 12:58 pm: || |
Ric_b, I understand what you're saying. My scripture quote was from the New Living Bible. I guess the point I am trying to make is, growing up sda, I was always taught that the sda church was the "true" church, and ergo, it was the only religion that had the truth. When I was reading this text in Galations 5, it just struck a cord in me. As far as some sda's comparing this forum with the text that I underlined, I don't think that we as a group on this forum think that we are the ONLY ones that have the truth because since leaving adventism, many of us are associated with various religious groups, churches, organizations and association which proves that we don't think that just OUR forum has the ONLY truth. Also, I don't think most of us think that that EVERY SINGLE DOCTRINE taught by the sda church is wrong. Just their more "quirkie" ones that have no biblical basis. But, on the other hand, the sda's think ALL other religions are Wrong. Even those religions that adhere to the "Sabbath" such as Seventh-Day Baptist, Seventh-day Pentecostel, Orthodox Judiasm, etc. It does'nt matter. As long as these groups don't adhere to the writings of EGW, their doctrines are wrong (according to sda's).
Post Number: 182
|Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 3:53 pm: || |
You are right. Few people outside of SDAism really understand how they view everyone else. Plenty of denominations have a little arrogance that their views are "better" than others. And, if they didn't have it, why would they even exist.
But SDAism takes this to a whole other level. It isn't just a case of being better or right, but of teaching that anyone who knowingly disagrees with them is not a Christian.
It is hard for an SDA to understand that people can have unity in Christ without having to agree on every single point of doctrine.
Post Number: 271
|Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 6:28 am: || |
Ric...that is so true. When I was an SDA member, I used to look at the "Sunday keepers" in a negative way. Especially if I saw them at a mall or a restaurant after a Sunday service, like they were "sinning" for doing something they shouldn't be doing on their so-called sabbath day. Oh man, talk about a secret pride.
Post Number: 179
|Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 6:48 am: || |
That attitude starts at a very young age. I remember being around 6-8 years of age and I went with my mom to the pharmacy on Sabbath, because she had to get medicine for my dad. This pharmacy was in a shopping plaza with several other stores. I remember just staring at all the people who dared to go shopping on the Sabbath for non-emergency reasons, and telling myself, "so that's what heathens look like." It never entered my head (I was guess I was too young for it to) that it's a good thing there were heathens willing to operate the stores on Sabbath or we couldn't have got our medicine!
Post Number: 1369
|Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 7:37 am: || |
And, the SDA leaders are desperately trying their best to keep this mindset going within their members. I guess it was around a year ago in the Review was a small article, about 1/3 of a page, about a church which had a lot of the youth on a particular ball team at the local public high school. The school would not budge and insisted that the kids on the team be at the school on Sunday mornings for practice. The youth as well as their parents were unhappy that the youth would then have to miss Sunday School and worship. So, the pastor brought it before the congreation for a vote and overwhelmingly the congreation voted to hold their weekly services on Satutrday during the sport season so everyone could still attend services. Then the author of the article in the SDA rag continued to say that would never happen in a SDA church because SDA's are sure of their beliefs, SDA's don't waver, SDA's take their conviction to the Sabbath seriousely, unlike the Sunday-keepers who are not even firm in their belief of being loyal to keeping Sunday. I read that article and just gagged all through it. The author of the article, and I would immagine most the people reading it agreed that that church just proved that those Sunday-keepers did not have a firm faith. I, however read the article and just kept thinking what a lovely Christian move it was for an entire congreation to change their weekly schedules so the high school kids could still have their Bible class and attend the worship service. Articles like that just reinforce the SDA mind of their superiority. And, if I've said it once I've said it a hundred times, it's the attitude that qualifies the SDA as a cult way more so than the doctrines. One more thing, after reading that article I was told by a SDA person that going to church on Sabbath does not make that person a Sabbath-keeper. I agreed. However, the statement was said to show the superiority of SDA's and again, it was the attitude.
Post Number: 272
|Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 7:59 am: || |
I know, it's awful. It's one thing to say you prefer not to participate in something due to your convictions, but to be so rigid about it is another thing. The SDA's want the world to revolve around their time agenda.
This brings a flashback where one SDA visitor spoke to the SDA church about his expedition in Turkey while searching for Noah's Ark. Because they chose not to venture up on a mountain during the sabbath while others in his group went ahead and later encountered some problems. He felt that they were "spared" because they were sabbath keepers and the others got what they deserved.
Ugh. Hate to reflect back on how arrogant that type of thinking was ..and still is.
Post Number: 1273
|Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 8:55 am: || |
Susan, I read the Signs of the Times articles you sent. You're right--they're really sort-of horrifying.
The two articles in question are from the January, 2005 Signs. One is on the state of the dead and features two women discussing what happens after death. The one who believes in soul sleep shamelessly declares that it's not what she believes that counts, it's what the Bible says that counts. She then proceeds to create an argument in favor of soul sleep by rationalizing that IF a person "went to heaven" after they died, they obviously WOULD be able to see what was going on in Earth and they WOULD be unable to disengage from the emotional attachment to what's going on. They WOULD NOT be able to enjoy heaven, because they WOULD be worrying year after year about their loved ones.
Of course, no Bible texts to support this view were mentioned.
Near the end the author says, "It's comforting to know that should I die before Jesus comes, I'll have a chance to catch up on my rest while God works out the final details concerning our planet."
Catch up on my rest??!!
So much for "what the Bible says".
I was particularly annoyed with this article, I suppose, because yesterday I read a three-page treatise explaining to me why the Proclamation article on Spirit: Breath or Core Identity was an argument based on philosophy, not the Bible. Further, this treatise explained to me that my premise was simply an emotional reaction to a desire to avoid death and further, the Proclamation article was espousing the Platonic view that the spirit desires to be free from the bonds of the body and roam free, away from physical restirctions.
So, when I read the Signs article that used no scripture to support it's rather overt emotional argument about what a spirit in heaven WOULD, of course, be doing, I just had to shake my head.
By the way, Paul, in 2 Corinthians, is clear that when we leave this mortal tent we are unclothed, that we do not want to be unclothed but long for our heavenly bodies. But, he says, when we are away from this body, we are with Christ. Somehow He clothes us until the resurrection.
Whatever happens, Paul still says it is preferable to be away from the body and present with the Lord. None of Paul's statements suggest our spirits are roaming freely, enjoyng their release from the bondage of a physical body. Nowhere does it suggest the spirits of the dead suffer for their loved ones or participate in any way with them. Our lives are hidden with Christ in God, and even in death, He holds us securely IN HIM.
Post Number: 465
|Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 11:41 am: || |
Imagine my surprise when I drive up to my mom's house this morning and find the Jehovah Witness' in her living room. Apparently, she has been having bible studies with them and is amazed at how similar their beliefs are, especially that the dead sleep and know nothing.
I said, "I am not sure the dead sleep." She got really upset with me. She said, "You don't think their up in heaven already???!!!" I told her that I didn't exactly know but I did know that our Spirit's are now eternal and Jesus said we have already passed from death to life when we believe...and he also said we will never die...
It shook me up a little that she was so offended that I believed differently about the state of the dead than her and the JW's. I have found that arguing the state of the dead makes people even more angry than the Sabbath. It is a very touchy subject.
Post Number: 111
|Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 12:00 pm: || |
When I was a pre-teen growing up in the sda church, there was one thing that made me particularly very, very sad. I have a grandmother that is still living (she is now 86 years old). My grandmother grew up in the Baptist church and is still a member of the Baptist church to this day and attends church on Sundays. My mom and dad, who grew up Baptist, but are sda converts(staunch sda converts), tried for years to get my grandmother to convert to the sda religion, but she never would. They had numerous sda "bible workers" come and talk to her, and she has taken numerous Bible Studies, but to no avail. She never converted. Once she was even scheduled for baptism in the sda religion, but changed her mind that morning within hours of getting into the "baptismal" pool. My grandmother would always tell me privately that she always thought that there was something "wierd" about the sda religion. She even told me that "those people" meaning sda, "thought they were better than everyone else". My grandmother is a great christian woman who is outstanding, upright, and was a great influence on my life, as well as the lives of numerous family members, friends, relatives, etc. The thing that used to greatly upset me and cause me great pain (un-necessary pain) was when members of the sda church would tell me that no matter how much of a christian my grandmother is, she could not be saved because she knows the truth about the "sabbath", but rejects it, so therefore she is LOST. Oh my God. I used to think about this soooo much when I was younger and un-informed. I used to cry about this, and loose sleep, and wonder what kind of a God would do this to such a beautiful, wonderful, christian woman that tried to serve God in everything that she did all of her life. You just don't know what a relief its been to know that my dear grandmother is saved, despite not being sda. Thank you God I can't begin to tell all of you how resentful I am of the sda church that they put this falsehood in my head for all those years. But praise God, I know the truth now. God is soooo good
Post Number: 287
|Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 1:09 pm: || |
Truly, for us formers, there is no greater blessing than having been called out of Seventh-day Adventism. Amazingly, it was on a Saturday afternoon (the legal Sabbath) that I discovered the True Sabbath Rest. I was surfing the Internet and downloaded a study titled, "Sabbath in Christ," by Dr. Richard Fredericks. The Holy Spirit touched my heart the very first time that I read it. I knew immediately that Jesus is the True Sabbath Rest. Praise God, I have never doubted or wavered on this biblical truth since that Saturday afternoon in the mid-1990s.
Seventh-day Adventists are kept very busy with tithing, tuition payments, ad infinitum. Therefore, they only have Saturday afternoons to search for truth in many cases--especially on the Internet. Indeed, this is prime time for reaching inquiring Adventists. Let us remember to pray for our SDA friends and relatives at sunset on Fridays. Many are sincerely longing to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the True Sabbath Rest.
Dennis J. Fischer
Post Number: 112
|Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 3:52 pm: || |
Dennis, yes we do need to truly pray for the sda's. Unfortunatly there are some sda's that even look down on "surfing the web" on the "sabbath". This is true with my staunch sda parents. I was visiting them on a saturday a few months ago and wanted to check out something over the internet. My mom kept coming into the room to see what I was doing. You know. I can tell by the expression on her face and her comments that she was afraid that I might be tempted to check out "Ebay" on the "sabbath".
Post Number: 1275
|Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 7:53 pm: || |
Dennis, how interesting that you found Sabbath Rest on Sabbath. Dale's two books, Sabbath in Christ and Cultic Doctrine, arrived without warning in our mail on Sabbath early in June, 1996. He had sent them to us after we attended his lecture at the San Diego Adventist Forum meeting a couple of weeks before. We began reading that afternoon, and life was never the same again.
God has such an impeccable sense of timing, for One outside of time Himself!