| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 181 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, I think you are so right about the path relative to Biblical inspiration. Before I became SDA, I never thought about it. When I heard about "thought" inspiration it made sense, so I accepted that. Gradually I came to the conclusion that this was inadequate, that it allowed people to re-write passages to fit their needs without regard to the original language. Esther, Your description is just so true to my experience that it is beyond description. The bigger picture opening up and the blank looks when we try so desperately to help some people see it. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris, my experience has been similar to yours. Since leaving Adventism, I have come to hold a much higher view of Scripture as infallible and inerrant. If the original "words" of Scripture can't be relied upon to be Divinely inspired, we make the Bible over into a meaningless and contradictory book. When we discuss Scripture with SDAs, their low view of the inspired Word gives them a way to minimize or contradict its claims. This is another of the fruits of Ellen White's teaching - undermining total confidence in Scripture. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2000 |
A few years ago, an SDA college Bible teacher who has a high reputation in the denomination acknowledged to me that Ellen White (or her editors) sometimes later inserted "I was shown" or "the angel said" into her comments to give them more authority. Then he went on to assert that he believed Moses had done the same thing in the Pentateuch in places where it is stated, "The Lord said to Moses. . ." They will do anything to defend EGW, even if they have to pull Scripture down to her level! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1267 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, Bob, Ric, Esther, Loneviking--my experience is the same as yours. While Adventists SAY they live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (and those in the Bible), the reality is that they don't. It's double-speak...again. They do not say the Bible is inerrant; they cannot, because they also say Ellen was inspired the same way the Bible writers were inspired. They all know they've had to edit Ellen, and they also proceed to edit and re-interpret the Bible to suit their beliefs. As I have left the church and studied the Bible alone, it has become a living book. I now find that I cannot slide over any passage--and when I begin comparing difficult words or passages with the same ideas other places in Scripture, a big picture begins to emerge that fits together and makes sense and seems to expose reality. It's a seamless whole; I don't have to explain things away or ignore passages anymore. The words by themselves are just words. When we are commimtted to Jesus, however, the Holy Spirit helps us recognize the Spirit behind the words of Scripture, and the big picture of God's continuos sovereign touch in all creation becomes visible. When JEsus told the Samaritan woman that the time was coming and was now here that people would worship God in spirit and in truth, He was saying something really profound. The words of the Bible apart from a commitment to knowing Jesus and being regenerated by the Holy Spirit are just words. Truth is there, but people will not see it. (1 Corinthians 2). That, I believe, is the problem with Adventists and the Bible. Conversely, when people search for a spiritual experience or understanding without being grounded in Scripture, they open themselves up for deception. Only in the Bible will we find Truth as God has revealed it. And only when we are surrendered to Him will that truth become visible. If we attempt to worship or understand God without equal commitments to spirit [elivened by the Holy Spirit] and to truth [as revealed in Scripture], we will end up with heresy. The Bible is an amazing book. It no longer seems contradictory or confusing. It is alive, and it astonishes me with its relevance and its provocative glimpses into a reality much bigger than the three dimensions I'm stuck in right now! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 271 Registered: 10-2004 |
I and my family believed in the verbal inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible before we gave up EGW, but that strong belief in the Bible certainly helped us to give up EGW! And we now are free to just take the Bible as it reads and believe what it says. It's great to see how the Bible all fits together.  Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1361 Registered: 11-2002 |
Belva, I really liked the story/joke about heaven. I have the desire to share it with numerous SDA kin of mine. I have gone to a lot of Hare Krishna gatherings. I have known a lot of Deadheads. When you tell those people they are in a cult they crack up laughing and say they don't care, they're having a good time so what does it matter if their group is considered a cult or not. I do think though that the SDA church deviates too much from basic Bibical truths to be considered pure Christian. I would refer to the SDA more as psuedo-Christian. I think it was Jeremy or Ric-b who mentioned the Luther movie a few days ago. Well, I watched it last night. I had read the book and I have his large and his small catachisms at home as well as numerous other of his writings. I want to loudly and boldly say right here right now, don't ever let a SDA get by with telling you that EGW is like any other Christian writer, like ML or any of the others. SHE IS NOT! ML only put Jesus first. He urged reading the NT and letting God guide the believer. EGW says her writings are to be put first and should never be wavered from. ML says God should be put first and should not be wavered from. There is a big difference. I am currently doing a study of the basic Christian teachings as the paster has asked me to teach the children in the upcoming catachism class. Oh, that outta go over great with my SDA kin if they find out I'm now teaching the catachism to the children. Please, keep this in your prayers. I try to keep my private/church life unknown from my kin. Just because I have a much easier life that way. | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2005 |
Susan_2, I can relate to your thoughts about keeping your private/church life from others. I've been thinking about this a lot recently, due to the changes in my life and also due to the recent Christmas holiday with friends and family. When I believed I was an Adventist, I hid my "sins" from other Adventists. Now that I know which side I'm really on (Christ's, and Christ alone!), but not "outed", I remain in the position of not completely sharing my life with others. I still have family and very close friends in the Adventist church. I'm still an office holder in the church, but I'm trying to gently extract myself -- I'm wondering whether the next several sermons I'm scheduled to preach over the coming months will help, if I choose my topics carefully :-) Is it cult-like to be emotionally & socially pulled and seemingly have to hide so much from people? I am grateful to be free of the Adventist bonds on thoughts and actions, but in some situations I'm still stuck until the time comes that I feel I can be transparent to everyone. I continue to pray for the Lord's guidance especially with respect to this quandary. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1365 Registered: 11-2002 |
Cy, I take it you are a pastor, is that correct? I am pleased to make your acquaintance. I am looking forward to learning from you. Susan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 938 Registered: 3-2004 |
Cy, I have put your name in my prayer book and will remember you in prayer every day. I have always believed the Bible is infallible. As for EGW, I thought she was a prophet, but as the years went by, and I was not studying the Bible or her and was not claiming any religion, I learned to dislike hearing about her and hearing her quoted. I see now that was God, gently pulling me away from adventism. When I gave up the filter of EGW a year ago, and started reading the NT I began learning so much I had not seen before. It was a YEAR AGO I TOOK OFF THE EGW FILTERS. It has been an adventurous year and God has had His hands on me throughout it. Thank you God, You are AWESOME. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1367 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tracey, I will remember to keep your difficult time in my prayers. I know it can be hard as well as a bit overwhelming. Cy, you mentioned as SDA you felt a need to hide your sins from the other SDA's. I guess that goes back to the SDA teaching of people having to become perfect before they can impose on God for His mercy. I am a member of the Lutheran church. In the Lutheran we have a wonderful teaching that goes like this. We are as Christians saints and sinners. Simoteaneousely (sp?) we are saints and sinners. It is like a paradox. We are before God saints in our faith in Jesus as Christians. At the same time we are sinners. We are born into fallan humanity and that is just that. The Pslamist says to live with a prayerful heart at all times. Therefore, we are in a constant state of forgiveness. We don't have to remember to ask God in our prayers for forgiveness of every little sin, it is impossible to even remember all our sins, especially when we start figuring up our sins of omission as are mentioned in the book of Timothy (I think it's Timothy). It's called GRACE. Now, one more comment. As many of you know, I was greatly blessed in that the SDA religion never made any sense to me. In the 5th grade at age 11 I decided when I grew up I would go to a church that made sense to me. A great part of this non-understanding of the SDA religion is their three angel's message teaching. I have never been able to figure it out. The only thing I have figured out is that somehow SDA's believe angel #3 says that in the last days just before the return og Jesus everyone will either have to become SDA or they'll get schorched to eternal death. I have never been told what SDA's believe about angels 1 and 2. I read the book of Revelations. It doesn't say what the SDA's say it says. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 37 Registered: 7-2000 |
Tonight at my church, in a small group of people with whom I was not acquainted, I stated that I had come out of a cultic background, but I did not mention SDA, and no one asked me, "which cult?" After the service, a couple in the group asked me which cult I had been in. When I told them SDA, the man said his brother is SDA, and added, "Of course, the SDAs are not a cult." I told him I must beg to differ. We had an interesting discussion for the next few minutes. They were receptive to my explanation, and asked me if I would please bring them some material about SDAs next week, so they can study further. I believe the Holy Spirit arranged this encounter! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1272 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praise God, Bob! They needed to talk to you! Cy, your feelings are SO normal--and yes, they do reflect the cultic nature of Adventism. You don't find people hiding if they make a lateral move from, say, a Baptist church to a congregational church. As long as people are Christ-followers, Christians aren't generally concerned with which specific denomination one attends as long as it's Christian and teaching Biblical truth. I'll be praying for you as well. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 184 Registered: 7-2004 |
Cy, The story sounds sooo familiar. A year ago I still wasn't ready to make the step. While I had declined being an elder without much suspicion, I remained a deacon, shared in teaching an adult SS class, and had several upcoming sermons scheduled. Even though I never taught or preached something I didn't believe, I still felt a sense of isolation and "falseness." And I understand what you mean about "hiding your sins." Several years before I had been convicted about being "real" when I preached. So I spoke about struggling with doubts and finding hope; I spoke about feeling unworthy and clingiing to grace. Most people responded very positively. And it helped build my confidence in who I was as a Christian. I hope that you will find here the same sense of comfort and belonging that I have. So often I had felt that it must be something wrong with me and that I was alone in my experience. But I can't count the times here that someone describes and experience or emotional response that could have been taken directly from my life. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 113 Registered: 5-2004 |
I've been thinking alot about my previous view of the Bible as an SDA. From our conversation yesterday, it seems many of us were in the same or relative frame of mind. This morning, some things struck me though... Much of my feelings of disconnectedness from the Bible came from not only my views on inspiration, but from issues the church fosters itself. ie. I didn't "get" the book of Acts, because the significance of it was mantled by the fact that the church really didn't start then. Now, Acts is such a great book to me as the miracle (big picture) and smaller miracles written in it show God's work mightily. I couldn't really understand the writtings of Paul (which means that a chunk of the NT was veiled to me). After all, as I've been repeatidly told now that I do understand him, "Paul is so confusing...even Peter says so" I didn't like reading the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy because after all, I already knew the law and what applied and what didn't, and wasn't ever taught about the beautiful picture of God and redemption that is found there. And to be frank, probably half the gospels went over my head as well. Just my thoughts, maybe you all have more to add on that. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 203 Registered: 3-2004 |
While I am certainly not a pastor, I did hold offices in my local congregation and did a lot of teaching. Looking back, I can see how the Holy Spirit had been working on me to pull me out of Adventism even before I had any idea I would no longer be Adventist. One of the things I had come to despise is prooftexting and the way the SS lesson would conveniently leave out certain aspects of a subject. Consequently for a few years Iíd been teaching a special SS class that didnít follow the quarterly. The pastor and I would teach these classes (and other doctrinal classes) together supposedly, although he was seldom there for much of the class so really I taught most of the subjects. He well knew I was in transition because I refused to teach doctrine I could no longer believe in and he had to teach those particular afternoon classes for new believers. Like you, Ric and Cy, I dropped out gradually. I donít believe the pastor thought Iíd really do it until I refused ALL church offices. I was on the nominating committee at the time so it was easier to do that way. For awhile I did continue teaching, though. I was only going to teach what I really believed. We had just started a new series going through the book of John inductively verse by verse. The week before studying Jesusí first miracle of turning the water into wine, I had challenged them to look deeply into the story. Well, needless to say that when they came with their research next week they could not prove that it was grape juice. In fact, for some of them, the entire doctrinal belief in abstinence had come into question as they had started to see the Bible teaches moderation. That week the pastorís wife came to class, bringing along several friends from a former church where they had pastured. They all went home and started asking the pastor questions about the passage. It wasnít long before I had a very angry pastor on my hands wanting to know what in the world I was doing! He well knew I was teaching them to think and he well knew I wasnít promoting drinking, but Ö.whoaÖ.teaching people to think for themselves! Examining it now, I believe the real source of his anger was he couldnít answer their questions without admitting that the SDA position is without solid scriptural foundation. This is a long story to get around to saying that for you Cy, and for any other here who still have teaching and preaching responsibilities within Adventism, I firmly believe the Holy Spirit will encourage you to use that time to teach and preach the truth as you are coming to know it. I firmly believe that some pastors will be kept on the payroll to preach truth until they are fired. If there is a huge blowup within a conference, it just may be the opening that allows the Holy Spirit to place questions within the minds of others. It also identifies someone they can contact when they have no idea where to turn. For others, the Holy Spirit indicates a new direction before the Conference is hardly aware. Whichever way, itís quite the wild ride watching how the Holy Spirit moves in ways you never would have dreamed of. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2004 |
Even though we have stopped going to the SDA church (8 months now) and have been attending an Alliance church for the past 2.5, we still find ourselves hiding and not wanting to be outed. jI struggle with this. Making the break is a difficult thng. I am struck by the sense of corporate identity. When anyone hears about something in the news relating to SDA that is negative, it has a tendency to bring down the whole corporate body. When a person does something positive, we have a tendency to celebrate corporately because their success has somehow given additional status. When someone who is famous becomes an adventist, there is a tendency within the church to "show them off" as if they are saying that their acceptance of SDA doctrine continues to legitimize their belief. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1370 Registered: 11-2002 |
Goldenbear, your comment about corperate group mentality and group identifaction really stands out. My kin are so enamoured and are personally extremely proud of Dr. Ben Carson and of Admiral Berry Black. From listening to my kin you would come away thinking Dr. Carson and Admiral Black were immediate kin. It's really s ort-of weird. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 205 Registered: 3-2004 |
I do know that Dr Carson feels Wintley Phipps made a mistake in not severing his ties with the Adventist denomination for his other ministry interests. Not quite sure where Dr Carson stands, but it's not the usual Adventism. Praise God... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1274 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cy, the last thing Richard and I let go was our Sabbath School class. Like so many of us here, we left gradually. God quite literally allowed our church offices to dissolve in poltical maneuverings, and we were SO CLEAR that we could walk away from them. The class, though, continued. For maybe a year (or several months) we went to church only for our class--making sure we walked visibly though campus between services so people would "see we were there". (Wow, even though we knew we were leaving, the old fear clings on!) Like you, PraiseGod, we were going through the book of John in our class. I had begun to pray that we would know when to quit teaching it. Gradually the membership dwindled (there was just too much Bible and not enough "guru" intellectualizing!), but a few kept coming. We felt committed to them. One day in May, however, we walked to the small library where our class met on the LLU campus, and no one else came. It was really a pivotal moment for us. Richard said, "This is our answer. We're done." We got up, left the room, and Richard firmly and deliberately locked the door behind us. We cancelled the class in the bulletin, and we just stopped going. I also believe that as long as you are saying "yes" to Jesus and walking into the truth, He will use you to teach truth to those inside who need to hear it. If you come to a point, though, where you resist walking through the open door He puts in front of you, your witness is deeply compromised. Jesus makes it very clear to one when and how he is to leave the church. Our job is to say "yes" to whatever He's leading us to do. Ironically, leaving taught me that I was wrong in having though the only way I could influence those inside was by staying. As long as God hadn't yet asked us to walk out, He did use us inside. When we actually left and overcame our fear of people knowing, however, our influence INSIDE the church increased. It seems counter-intuitive, but it's true. Saying "Yes" to Jesus requires us to let go of all our security and identity and trust only Him. The thing you can't know before you try it, though, is that He is completely faithful, and he gives you His identity which feels 'WAY more secure that the one you had before! Cy, it will be traumatic, but it will also be surpassingly liberating, exhilarating, and deeply rewarding. Jesus is so much better than all we leave in order to cling to Him! Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 227 Registered: 2-2002 |
Susan - you are so right about Ben Carson and the chaplain guy.....I still get e-mails from well-meaning friends about these celebrities. Not too long ago I received an e-mail about Russell Crowe starring in some SDA short-film or something like that (don't remember details) before he made it into the big time. I don't know if it's even true, but who cares???!!! I get the feeling sometimes that my SDA friends and family are thinking this will somehow influence my view of the church. |
