| Author | Message | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hello, All: I must reconnect with you...I have not posted since March of 2004 (Richard had to "remind" me of my username and password.) I am, even as we speak, "attending" a Sabbath School on-line...the website is RemnantofGod.org and a fellow who used to be RC (30 years) is now a "remannt church individual" with MANY SDA principles...he quotes EGW continuously. BUT, interesting point here - I need your help: Could it be that EGW did indeed receive MUCH LIGHT in her early days, just to have the SDA church, the GC "alter" or change her writings in order to fit "their" preferences... One example: I heard that Kellogg back in the late 1890s basically told Ellen, her friend in CHrist, to head off to Australia as "he's got things covered in the US." Well, Kellogg may have been trying to "furhter his corporation" in order to gain financial windfalls...with EGW out of the picture on this soil, he could pursue his dream of power and money. Anyways, I have some good friends, who, just last week, had their names taken off the books of the local SDA church due to the SDA church resembling the Whore of Rome, (Babylon) due to the many things and ideas that have crept into the church. In other words, they still hold true to the 7th day Sabbath as a sign of allegiance to Christ, still hold true to EGW writings, but are no longer SDA's but "remnant" people. Whew...let me hear from you guys!! Especially you, Colleen...a "former" yourself - I entrust much in your repsonse. PLEASE be sincere and open as I am indeed on "grey" ground as we speak. Eric | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2004 |
You bring up an interesting point. However, I believe that most of her "errors" were made early in her experience. If we place the same test on EGW as current Adventist do regarding others who claim prophetic status, we would have to come to the conclusion that she was not a prophet (false prophet). The fact that many in the SDA church have deifed her and elevated her to equal status with the scripture, doesn't change the major mistakes made early in her ministy. For me I look at the entire work, particularly early materials, and that seems to be where the greatest problems are. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 946 Registered: 3-2004 |
Eric, Read and study the Bible only. See if EGW passes the test of being a prophet. Study the covenants, the Sabbath, tithing and the IJ. Do this while asking God to send his Holy Spirit to teach you. Use a Bible concordance to study these subjects. I also use 3 different translations of the Bible and they all agree with each other. I will pray that God will teach you. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks for some quick replies...studying scriptures to test a prophet is indeed where I will be heading. HOWEVER, regardless of what SHE says with regard to Sabbath, it comes down to what are we still asked to do by God. He does not say don't remember the sabbath day and not keep it holy. The New Covenant Christian feels they are under "new" "law and order" and I have read many of the NT scriptures which "seem" to lead us "out" of the OT "bondage". Still, and I know many of you have been there and done that - but with this "new" website that I found, the RemnanofGod.org...give it a whirl...he seems to lay many positive claims out on the table...I just can't believe he is not an SDA...but he is ALL OVER EGW...now, from his perspective, EGW was the founder of "THE" remnant church back in her early days (1850s)...it is the SDA church/organization/corporation that has misquoted her trying to elevate themselves not only above EGW but above God! Not a good thing...To be continued... | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2004 |
RemnantofGod.org - sorry! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 188 Registered: 7-2004 |
This statement along is enough to keep me from looking further on the website
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| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1377 Registered: 11-2002 |
EGW continousely uplifted herself. In one place she says all her words are to be headed and followed. She frequently reminds her readers and during her lifetime she remindd her folowers verbally that it is her counsil that is to be followed. Contrast that to Martin Luther who just admonishes everyone to read the Bible for themselves, follow the Bible and look to Jesus. This is the same counsil given by Billy Graham. I would be leary of anyone who says that himself or herself is the one to follow. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 284 Registered: 10-2004 |
"He does not say don't remember the sabbath day and not keep it holy." Eric, Slow down, take a break from SDA/EGW/"Remnant folk" propaganda, and study the Bible for yourself and see what it has to say. Paul was afraid that he had labored in vain for the Galatians because they were keeping the Sabbath (and other holy times)! "You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain." (Galatians 4:10-11 NASB.) Jeremy P.S. Regarding EGW's writings being changed--many of her writings are still available in handwritten manuscript, and as has been said, her old writings contain just as bad heresy as anything ever. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2004 |
Back in the 80's a person I knew very well, joined in a group who stated that the SDA's were all apostate and were lost. I was an SDA at the time, and she announced to me on a sunny afternoon how all SDA's are now lost. I felt the blood drain from me and fear took hold. I was not living the most "perfect" SDA life, so I was paralyzed with fear. (Fear is the most prevalent feeling that I took from the SDA faith). She went on to "reassure" me that the SDA church as a "whole" was lost, not individuals themselves. In other words, her group was now "above" the apostate SDA church, relying soley on EGW and I guess the Bible. She then went with her group to Israel and there stayed for about 5 years waiting for the Lord to come...they said he would return there. She lived in caves, etc. She wears a head covering due to the text in Corinthians about women covering their heads. I hear she is now back in the states. She used to send me all kinds of propaganda literature, that made me queasy inside just to see it in the mailbox. She would call me and say "I want to share a bible verse with you"....and then proceed to say "The Lord is about to pour out his bowl of wrath" or something along that line. I finally told her that I did not need this at this time. I was struggling to find grace and love in Jesus not condemnation. She left me alone (probably washed her hands of me) and continues to do her thing I am sure. Regarding Kellogg and EGW's writings, one of the most eye opening things to me was on ellenwhite.org and click on pioneer letters. There are letters from Kellogg and others where the refute what she condemned them for. They seem to be sincere, earnest letters, explaining that not only did they do the things she accused them of, but that they never even thought of doing them, and that one day God would show this. All those letters she wrote condemning people and then they became "testimonies" are horrible! The Bible says to settle differences among each other first, not publish their dirty laundry!!! Frankly, I am very leary of anyone who calls themselves "THE remnant". The remnant I think will be those who choose Jesus and Him alone. About the Sabbath, I don't know. I don't know why it couldn't have been addressed specifically in the NT, but I do know that Jesus' death on the cross did cover my sin, and that I can have the assurance of salvation. The SDA version is such a stretch of the imagination, and not based on biblical facts. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 285 Registered: 10-2004 |
The NT does address the Sabbath specifically: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17 NIV.) It says that the Sabbath was only a shadow which pointed to Christ (Messiah) who is the Substance/Reality. Christ (Messiah) has come and we now have the Reality (Substance), the REAL Sabbath--Jesus Christ! Jeremy | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2004 |
What "fun" it is to post on FAF, go about our business, come back and see all the wonderful replies - I mean this sincerely. I cherish each and every one for the "variance" that is brought to this forum. Again, we have 'former SDA's", current SDA's, one-foot-out-the-door SDA's (me)...others to boot. I will indeed revisit the ellenwhite.org site and the others. Is it true that nowadays, if one were to visit the EGW Estate in Battle Creek, it would be difficult to get in there...under lock and key...this still leads me to wonder, why? I can understand how not just anyone can stroll on into the White House library or even the Dist. of Columbia for example. BUT, what is there to hide??? I hear some of you saying how her "early stuff" is just as bad...show me some concrete examples, please. It does make sense to me (as of last nite!!) that the SDA organization is very afraid of what they are even finding out themselves...WOW - I had never understood what Apostate could mean in these times with regard to the SDA church...that website, RemnantofGod.org...SO MANY LINKS...the gentleman "running" this quoted EGW constantly today...NOT for what she stood for in present-day SDA theology...but what she said in those EARLY days...how the SDA faith has "strayed" and "teamed-up" with The Catholic church in so many ways...ironic considering my early exposure to SDA (1970s) - all I ever heard about was Sabbath vs. Sunday, Great Controversy (which now I am wondering if it isn't indeed about the struggle between being IN the SDA church and wanting to leave it for another)...is that not the Controversy she is talking about? Anyway, i will check back shortly - carry on brothers and sisters! Eric | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2000 |
Bb, regarding your statement above: "About the Sabbath, I don't know. I don't know why it couldn't have been addressed specifically in the NT. . ." The fact is that the Sabbath IS addressed in the NT! It is addressed by Jesus in the Gospels, and in Colossians, by Paul. The problem is that what the NT has to say about the Sabbath is not what the Sabbatarians want to hear! | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jeremy, I am just responding in love and want to play "devil's advocate." When THEY say, the 4th Commandment of Exodus has not been changed, never has and never will, and I bring up "Sabbath Rest in CHrist" which made great sense and I took comfort in that as early as last week...What is the response. granted, I can't find where Christ said anything about the 7th day of Creation being done away with. Yes, "2 new laws I give you", et al...but what is our response to the 4th commandment has NEVER been nailed to the cross... Eric | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bob and Jeremy, You are right, Colossians does address that. I guess I have had it drilled into my head for so many years that there is nothing in the NT that says it was changed, blah, blah. I agree that is a perfect text! It is as if we are to understand that it is not the main thing any more, Jesus is! The foods, the days, the legalism was done away with when Jesus fulfilled His mission. Eric, I think that the SDA's are the only ones who break up the law between the moral law and the ceremonial laws. It is interesting how many times the Bible says "commandment" and it is translated to "teachings" not the "10". This was new to me as I thought that the KJV words were the most original. I think others on this forum have more knowledge than I about what to say when faced with these Sabbath questions. But I do know that when God created each day, 1-6 it says "the evening and the morning" etc. Then on the 7th, it was "rest" and understood as a perpetual rest in God until sin came. Then when Christ died for us, we now may rest in Him as Adam and Eve did at creation. Does that make sense? | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oops, on my earlier post about Kellogg, they said they did NOT do the things she accused them of. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 93 Registered: 6-2001 |
Hi Packer, I am quite familiar with the idea that the SDA church has perverted EGW's writings,aka "historical adventism" since my husband came to that conclusion early in our marriage (I have never been SDA but that is a long story) He became heavily involved in a ministry called "steps to life," which the author of your Website is apparently familiar with as well. The leader of Steps to Life, Grosboll, has his own little page on your site. Anyway it turned into this horrible and predictable cycle of him poring over EGW books and trying to keep every command she wrote. But then when he failed he would get so depressed he would give up trying to keep any of the commandments. Finally something would spark him (usually the arrival of the STL monthly magazine or newsletter) to try again. I have heard similar stories from other former historical adventists. Ellen White is worse then the Pharisees when it comes to having a list of rules to keep. And her punishment for breaking them is even more draconian. "Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people to walk no more with them." CDF 382 -- that is taken from your Web site. A disturbing conclusion that some of this historical adventists leaders jump to is this "Ellen White wrote down what God told her that is beyond the Bible. I am also close to God, so I can do that too." I couldn't tell if the author of the remnant Web site does this as well. I couldn't find a page where he was not merely commenting on others ideas. We still get the STL newsletter, partly b/c we are too lazy to cancel it and partly b/c it is almost funny some of the off-the-wall things they say. This is from the most recent newsletter (also online at www.stepstolife.org. "If God's people had continued keeping the Sabbath holy as God had asked them to do, the world would have been ready for Jesus to come the first time and we would never have been born. ... God and His sabbath day were quickly forgotten after the entrance of sin." Another problem with historical adventists (and to a degree adventists themselves) is the martyr complex they develop. Because their beliefs are revolutionary and RIGHT everyone is out to get them. My husband told me he believed I would turn him into the authorities during the Tribulation for keeping the Sabbath. I didn't not see anything on this remnant site about God's grace, God's love or God's forgiveness -- all of which are the principle focuses of the Bible. Instead I saw lots of condemnation of other religious groups, many more rules to obey and plenty about being persecuted in the end times. I think the awesome thing about modern Christianity is that because of technology, denominations are uniting under the powerful doctrines of salvation by grace and letting the other doctrines which may have previously divided them become less important. When all you have is a pastor preaching at you week after week your denomination's doctrines, that is what you tend to believe. But with the Internet, Christians are getting a better understanding of why other Christians believe the way they do, and they are finding out maybe we aren't all as different as we once thought. I think Adventists are even doing this to a small extent, which is why we have these guys stepping away from the denomination and saying "the whole world is conspiring against me." BTW about the Sabbath argument. I suspect it has been debated millions of times since Al Gore invented the Internet, and I will bet never has anyone been convinced either for or against it, so it is unlikely to happen here. The sabbath is so deeply ingrained that mere words aren't enough to shake it out. It takes the Holy Spirit and time for that to happen. --Hannah | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 94 Registered: 6-2001 |
Not wanting to contribute to the Sabbath argument, but to answer Bb's question ... I always interpreted Gen. 2:1 to mean God rested on the seventh day, but that doesnt mean he expected Adam to rest on that day, nor did he expect Adam to rest on the 14th day, the 21st day, etc. Somewhere in the Gospels Jesus blesses bread. Does that make all bread now sanctified? These are all just musings from my own head. --Hannah | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 949 Registered: 3-2004 |
Packer, read Galatians and Hebrews. Ask God to send the Holy Spirit to teach you. Those are 2 dynamic books. They will answer a lot of your questions. Trust God and know He will lead you to the truth, as He teaches it. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1378 Registered: 11-2002 |
The Janurary Signs of the Times has a question from a reader asking how the SDA church interperts Colossions 2:16-17. I sent the copy I had to Colleen so I no longer have it to quote from it. However, in essance the reply was that the SDA church basically interperts that passage the same as most every other Prostatent church does. That the day of formal worship is between the individual and God. However, SDA's understand it is the seventh day that is ment to be worshipped on so they just choose that day. But, for other Christians who don't understand it that way then that is fine with them. I was really taken aback whenI read that. It is not how I was taught growing up. In fact, it is my opinion that the SDA church and most SDA individuals still don't think of it the way the answer was given. The Signs is the SDA agazine that is encouraged for the SDA members to subscribe to as a gift for their non-SDA loved ones. So, the Signs really tends to come across as more accepting of others than SDA's really are. Bb, somewhere EGW says that only 1/3 of the SDA's will even be saved. Someone on here with EGW knowledge or resources to find the quote can look it up. She basically says that in the last days just prior to the return of Jesus everyone will have the opportunity to become SDA or to not become SDA. Those who don't become SDA will be lost eternall. Yet, only 1/3 of the SDA's will be saved. It's very bleek and depressg stuff that she wrote. Me and my very closest friend met in cradel roll 31 years ago when our oldest children were babies. She was 19 and had become SDA all on her own after a SDA neighbor hooked her up with the SDA Bible Worker who came to her home once per week. Soon after becomming SDA she sat through a sermon during witch the preacher said all non-SDA's would be lost and only 1/3 of the SDA's would be saved. Soon after becomming SDA she stopped attending. She still took the children to SS and that is where we met. | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 95 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi Eric, I would suggest that you could start by investigating two issues in early SDA that EGW supported through visions. The first is the "Closed Door" which was articulated in the 1845-46 time frame. The other is the Investigative Judgement. EGW had "visions" in support of both. The "closed door" turned out to be so ridiculous that the SDA church had quietly turned completely away from within a few years. The Investigative Judgement cannot be derived from the Bible and even some of the early SDA preachers realized this. An easy way of researching these is to log into some of the sites that expose Ellen as a fraud. Blessings, Dane |
