| Author |
Message |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 168
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 1:20 pm: |     |
If Jesus is our Savior from our sins and Jesus ate lamb at holidays, and fish other days, then meat is certainly good enough for me!
If it's good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for me! : ) (just thought I'd say it again!) |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 699
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 1:43 pm: | |
I'm always fascinated by the "original diet" argument. For whatever reason, GOD gave animals as food. Maybe it was after the flood, or maybe it wasn't and it isn't recorded. But GOD's word says he gave animals IN THE SAME WAY...no variation, no difference, not begrudgingly, not as a tolerance, but IN THE SAME WAY as he gave the green plants. Regardless of the original diet dogma, it's still GOD's idea that people eat meat...not man's. It's not something people started doing and then God endorsed. It is NOT that God was capable of keeping Noah et al afloat on the ark, but then ran out of food options once they landed ... again, if you read the texts of scripture, Noah was making a sacrifice and GOD himself enjoyed the aroma. I think he just decided he was going to share the barbeque. We also see in scripture the risen Christ not only eating, but preparing fish of his own freewill...not being forced or somehow proded. I do not know what is consumed in heaven, but my Bible is pretty blatant not to judge people in regards to food ... and I think we should be guidled by that thought.
Similar to what Colleen mentioned, I've read a book put out by a former SDA MD who said two things I was struck by....1...if people followed EGW's diet, they would die of malnutrition. Fortunately for SDAs, most don't have that kind of willpower. 2. As Colleen said, life expectancy studies are not adjusted to exclude smoking and excessive alcohol consumption, which significantly skew the research data in favor of vegetarians. If you adjust those studies for smoking and drinking risk factors, there is no difference in vegetarians and those who eat meat. I remember in graduate school I had a class on research (specifically medical studies). One of the key flaws with most studies is that the very questions can lead to skewed data just by how they are worded or the criteria used to select or randomize a sample. It sounds as though SDAs use some ethically challenged techniques to get the data results they want. As Chris has said, until a peer review has examined the study techniques and the sample, I don't tend to trust too many study data. It is very easy to skew your data depending upon your objective by merely refining your sample creatively. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 305
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 2:28 pm: | |
Great post, Melissa! Also, regarding the original diet, we don't even HAVE that perfect food available to us to eat even if we WANTED to eat that diet!!! So we CAN'T. That food in the Garden of Eden is gone. Now we have a sinful, fallen world and our bodies need more nutrition than grains and fruits! Vegetables were not included in the diet until after the Fall. And an interesting thing about that is that SDAs say that meat is a curse. But the Bible says that vegetables were part of the Curse--meat was part of a blessing according to Genesis 9!!! And if you want an Edenic original diet, you could NOT even eat vegetables, only fruits and grains, BUT you CAN'T EVEN DO THAT as those perfect grains and fruits are NO LONGER even available to us, as I said above.
And God said that meat "WILL be food for you" not even "may be food for you"!
Jeremy |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1432
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 3:37 pm: | |
Melissa, I have a record and coloring book by the Heritge Singers. One of the two songs on it is, There's Gonna Be a Picnic In Heaven. The Hertiage Singers in this sing mention all sorts of wonderful things to eat. |
Packer_eric
Registered user
Username: Packer_eric
Post Number: 12
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 4:11 pm: | |
Ok gang...I truly have nothing against those that do not follow a vegetarian diet...let me just say, I have been to many a SDA potlucks (as have you) and I was, well, "relieved" to see the assortment of desserts and "french fies" for example...all I am saying is this: Biblically, yes, there are passages that attest to meat-eating AFTER THE FLOOD...and yes, times they have a changed...(pesticides on fruits and veggies, i.e.) BUT, one of my first questions to our Saviour will be, how come I get so doggone "freaked-out" when I think about how God's beautiful creatures are so blatantly disregarded by much of mankind (see a slaughterhouse and tell me you're not affected - mentally!) I cannot for the life of me imagine going out on a hunting trip much less a fishing trip with the Disciples or even JC Himself and pulling the trigger or gutting a living being.
That's just me, guys...it is so bad with me that I actually lose sleep when I see one of the little critters on the side of the road - living in CO - I see plenty of deer and elk and it just saddens me...I am not alone in this, I am just a bit OUT THERE> (Note: It was to the point that a few years ago I wrote a letter to the editor of Signs of the Times and explained my "OUT THERE" feelings on this subject...they wanted to "hear more..." but never got back to me.
Great to converse!!
Eric |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 306
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 4:45 pm: | |
Oh, on the meat issue, there's one more Bible passage I would like to quote:
"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer." (1 Timothy 4:1-5 NASB.)
It's ok to eat a vegetarian diet, but it's not ok for it to be a teaching. Just make sure you don't fall prey to any doctrines of demons Eric!
Jeremy |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1433
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 4:47 pm: | |
I have been to church potlucks (SDA) where meat is served. I think it's a cultural thing within Adventism this meat thing. When I was living in Hawaii I attended the local SDA church. After the service the potluck consisted of a lot of fish and a lot of local fruit. Several years ago I attended a SDA church that was all of an immagrant culture. They had chicken at the potluck. Again, it's a cultural thing. EGW does say that anyone who is still using meat, eggs and dair can't be "translated" but I just don't think most SDA's know that statement by her and if they do they just brush it off as something loony she once said and dismss it. I had an uncle who would not eat in a restruant because restruants serve pork, thus the utinsils and tableware were contaminated before the Lord. I have observed it in my own kin-it in easy to go from basic Bibical law keeping to fullblown fanatic. I personally know people who say that even the Hindu's, etc. are more in Gods favor than are pork eating Christians, who hoestly believe ALL pork eating people everywhere and forever will be eternally lost. It can get very extreme. My kids like to deepfat fry potato bugs and tell their friends they are chicken nuggets. It's a hoot! |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 109
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 5:06 pm: | |
Jeremy: The SDA arguement I've heard on that one is 'the foods God created' - what did God create for food? Not the animals!
helovesme2 |
Lindylou
Registered user
Username: Lindylou
Post Number: 6
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 7:54 pm: | |
This line of discussion has been quite entertaining - from the Jews to Pork and Potato Bugs! 
I was intrigued by the discussion about the Jewish people. What do you all make of chapters 10-11 of Romans? The following verses make me wonder:
"For I do not desire, brethren that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion that hardening in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.......Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
It seems to me that the rejection of Christ by the Jews is all part of a big plan - that serves God purpose for reaching the entire world AND that somehow "Israel" is still special to God - despite their rejection of Christ.
What do you think? Linda |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 99
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 7:55 pm: | |
Here is a funny song i thought of, to be sung to the tune of "dry bones",
"The Genesis verse is connected to the ... Exodus verse. The Exodus verse is connected to the ... Deuteronomy verse. The Deuteronomy verse is connected to the ... Daniel verse," and so on.
The funeral wasn't actually as depressing as it could have been, I suppose. She had selected the butterfly as her "symbol" saying she is the caterpiller, then when she dies she will go into her chrysllis, then she will be a butterfly at her resurrection.
The pastor did read an extensive passage from "that great Christian book, the Great Controversy." Something about how Jesus will come back in a black cloud, and all the saved will see the cloud and know its Him. I guess all the saved that read that book anyways.
The pastor preached a tremendously long sermon. David, his sister, Bethany and I were in the cry room the whole time b/c Bethany's nap schedule was beyond repair. Adventist preachers around here seem to have a similar delivery style. A sentence followed by a long pause, then a repeating of the same sentence with slightly different wording. I must prefer the more conversational-style of sermon. David's mom said she was glad i was there, so I guess it was worth it.
--Hannah |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 701
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 9:19 pm: | |
Eric, man made clothes of leaves, God skinned the animals and make clothes of skins. Your argument is not with man, it's with God, it would seem. God is the one who initiated a law with animal sacrifices. No matter how you process what you see today, it was still God leading the charge. Think about Abraham laying out the carcasses and chasing away the birds until God came down. That picture sounds gross to me, but he did what GOD told him to do. And all those sacrifices and the blood.... yick! Wasn't my idea, it was Gods. His laws and demands. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1335
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 11:06 pm: | |
Linda, I agree with you. Romans 11 also talks about God grafting Israel back into the olive tree as He has grafted in the Gentiles. In the OT, the olive tree was the symbol of Israel. I'm thinking the olive tree is God's people, and while Israel has been hardened until the full number of Gentiles has come in, Israel will experience an awakening during which many will come to know the Lord and be re-grafted into the tree from which they were excised.
So, ultimately Israel will be Jew and Gentile, and ALL Israel will be grafted in by faith-- no more "genentic" Israel.
Hannah, glad you survived. That little black cloud was one of the things Richard was sure was in the Bible. I remember telling him, several years ago, that it was an Ellenism, and he decided to prove to me it was in the Bible. He finally conceded that it was, indeed, and ellenism!
Colleen
Colleen |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 311
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 11:28 pm: | |
IMO, one of the reasons for those bloody sacrifices was to remind folks just how awful and final sin is. It was also a test, to see if men would obey God at all costs. Cain, as an example of this, didn't and it cost Abel his life.
No, killing animals isn't easy as I've done it. Just make sure it's quick and clean........... |
Bartdanr
Registered user
Username: Bartdanr
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 5:39 am: | |
Hi Eric,
First, let me say that I do not judge you for being a vegetarian. If you believe that God calls you to that, I cannot judge--or if you're just doing it to be healthy. We have freedom in Christ on these matters.
However, I want to address something you wrote:
"I cannot for the life of me imagine going out on a hunting trip much less a fishing trip with the Disciples or even JC Himself and pulling the trigger or gutting a living being."
But Jesus and the Disciples DID go out on a fishing trip, on more than one occasion, even after the Resurrection (John 21).
It may be hard to imagine killing living animals and then eating them, but Jesus and the Disciples did.
In Christ,
Daniel |
Packer_eric
Registered user
Username: Packer_eric
Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 6:29 am: | |
Right, and if you really read what I said, I said that I CANNOT imagine doing these things...just as YOU (and others) cannot imagine living day to day on this earth and eating veggie. My entire intention is one of "mystery", for I can't comprehend doing those things...I just hope that if JC does invite me fishing that He has wiped out my impending thoughts of sadness and bummed-out awkwardness...
We've all got our shortcomings - and this be mine! |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 702
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 8:20 am: | |
I have a "funny" story, in my opinion. My daughter is retarded as some know. I have neighbors and uncles who enjoy hunting and mount their catches on the walls of their home. When Rachel goes to a house where a deer is hanging there, she always talks to it like it's just looking in the window. One year, I really chuckled as she kept saying "Come on in, Rudolph. It's nice inside." It was only then I realized she thought the creature was looking in from the outside. I'm not really fond of those types of art, but I tell you, I still laugh when I think of that. I'm not sure she yet understands and we've taken it off the wall so she can see it's not alive. Just a little humor from the lighter side of my daughter.... |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1436
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 8:26 am: | |
Hannah, it is good to know that you had a safe trip. The sermon sounded kind-of weird but I did like the analogy to the butterfly. Eric, no one is trying to convince you to start eating meat. If you feel healthy and you are getting all the necessary nutrients then good for you. I hope you are getting adequet B-12 and some of the other amino acids. In my family we eat both-meat and the vegemeats. We are so easy, we like everything and are thankful for anthing. My elderly SDA aunt passed away several years ago. She had never in her life even tasted meat. I know several people who have never eaten meat. At our family gatherings we have both, the Tofurkey and the gobble-gbobble turkey. It's all cool. |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 121
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 11:25 am: | |
Eric,
I too happen to be a mostly vegetarian (never ate meat in my life until recently)...when I realized it wasn't such a big deal. Many of us feel strongly as our backgrounds slotted vegetarianism to perfection. Now, it's just a choice we all have to make. Being that my husband is not vege...I've relished the freedom to not have to be so terrified as to what's in my food. But I too am an extreme animal lover...who also cries over the animals by the roadside. I am thankful that when Christ returns He will set all this to rest. But for now, I am also so happy that this "issue" isn't really one |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 100
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 2:50 pm: | |
I grew up in an SDA family that ate "clean meats", including beef, venison, and poultry. When I was young we were on a farm in northern Michigan, so we often killed and butchered animals, especially deer. Growing up this way, meat eating is normal to me (although I've greatly expanded my list of meats).
So in my particular family cultural background meat was the norm. In many SDA families it is not. It is always an individual choice and should not divide us, especially now that we are formers.
Dane |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1340
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 6:54 pm: | |
So true, Dane.
My mom's family raised black angus cattle in Saskatchewan, and she grew up with her dad butchering their own beef. They also raised the obligatory geese and chickens, so the whole fresh meat thing was fairly normal to my mom.
My dad, on the other hand, grew up in quite a poor family who rented small farms. They also raised cattle, etc, but they didn't do their own butchering. In fact, as time went on, my dad's family became increasingly vegetarian because of Ellen.
The result was that my mom adopted a mostly vegetarian (but definitely not vegan) mode of cooking (she had some Ellen guilt in there as well), and my sis and I grew up having meat as a rare "treat".
I can eat meat now, but I actually prefer mostly vegetarian food. It's a good thing, because Richard can't get meat past his lips!
One's upbringing certainly shapes us powerfully in these areas; even when our heads change their ideas, our tastes and emotions are still programmed.
You're right, Dane--it not an issue that should divide us now!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 980
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 7:44 pm: | |
I grew up eating mostly vegetarian, but occasionally Mom would fix beef, turkey or chicken. Our SDA aunt had a chicken farm so when we were there we used to wring the necks and pluck them so we could eat them. I raised my son vegetarian. I did not tell him we should not eat certain things. I just fed him a well balanced vegetarian diet. He is still vegetarian. But me, I still eat meat. A funny thing happened last week at work. I like to eat a protein and lots of vegetables. Well the only protein that day was, you guessed it, roast pork. Now, I know I said in another post on here I just could not eat pork unless it was bacon. Well, I was hungry, so I ate it and laughed at myself the whole time I was eating. No one at the table would have understood if I had burst out laughing.
And I agree, this should not be an issue that divides us. I thanked God for the food and ate it.
Diana |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1440
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 8:31 pm: | |
Diana, I would have thrown up. Everytime I have had pork that wasn't pepperoni or bacon and I found out about it later I got sick and threw up. Yes, I know it's a physical reaction to a mental thing but that is the reaction I get. I do the same thing with shell fish. Three of my four kids have no problem with eating most anything. The other one is vegetarian. You all wanna hear a funny (sort-of) story? My son was locked up in the state penatentury. My dad, bless his heart, would go to the prison every Friday afternoon to visit his grandson. This was no easy visit either as my dad was well into his 80's at this time. At each visit my dad would lean over to his much loved grandson and say something like this, "I know you dont get to choose what to eat while in here but are you remembering to not eat the pork? You know God forbids that and..." and, my son would say, "Grandpa, you know I would never want to do something that wrong". And, then all the way on the drive hime from the prison my dad would be so happy that his dear beloved grandson was staying so focused on following Gods law about pork. I was always amused at that conversation. Never did the reasons that got my on locked up got mentioned. But, the pork did. |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 277
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 8:22 am: | |
I never understood why we could not eat meat because Ellen White said that we could not go to heaven if we did, yet roast beef at Grandmom's was OK, turkey at Thanksgiving was OK, a "clean meat" hot dog was OK. These things were OK as long as someone else was preparing the food. Occasionally, we would even have it in our own house because one of my parents couldn't go without a good olde English roast of beef every so often. I didn't dare question on the risk of being "nothing but a stubborn, stiff-necked, rebellious child".
Funny how when I point out an SDA's "rebellion" against clear teachings of their "prophet", I am the one labelled as a rebel.
Pass the cognitive dissonance please... |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1345
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 10:21 am: | |
Uh, here it is, Freeatlast--go ahead, take a double portion!
All these things underscore the cultic nature of the church--isn't it odd how it didn't look abnormal from the inside? The crazy-making was natural; it felt like "home"! We even knew how to do the rationalizing almost without having to think about it.
While I had trouble balancing all the conflicting "truths" and practices, still I felt Proud of the "Truth"...whatever it really was!
Colleen
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Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 48
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 5:17 pm: | |
For those of you from Southern California, or with connections to La Sierra University - todayís Riverside, CA newspaper contained a notice that Dr. Madelynn Jones-Haldeman, retired professor of New Testament for La Sierra University, passed away in Naples, Florida last Friday.
The memorial service is at 2 pm this Saturday at La Sierra University Church. I was in Madelyn's SS class for years, and my son took a college course from her. I plan to attend the memorial service.
Judging by the studies I heard her present over the years, Madelyn clearly understood the saving Gospel of Jesus. I always wondered why, knowing this, she chose to remain SDA.
Bob
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Bartdanr
Registered user
Username: Bartdanr
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 5:36 am: | |
Hi Eric,
You posted:
"Right, and if you really read what I said, I said that I CANNOT imagine doing these things...just as YOU (and others) cannot imagine living day to day on this earth and eating veggie. My entire intention is one of "mystery", for I can't comprehend doing those things...I just hope that if JC does invite me fishing that He has wiped out my impending thoughts of sadness and bummed-out awkwardness...
We've all got our shortcomings - and this be mine!"
My apologies for mis-reading what you wrote. I did not mean to cause offense. And brother, I've got some SERIOUS shortcomings myself. We all live by grace.
I'm sure that Jesus will never call us to something that he doesn't give us strength to do. If Paul told us not to offend a brother by eating certain foods around those who would be offended, then I can't imagine Jesus himself deliberately offending us, either. I doubt if he's going to say "Look Eric, before I'll let you into my Kingdom, you're going to have to kill and eat this deer." He is far more gentle than that with us.
In Christ,
Daniel |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 298
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 6:33 am: | |
Bob,
Did the newspaper article indicate Dr. Haldeman's age at death?
Dennis Fischer |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 49
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 7:44 pm: | |
Dennis, no it did not.
I plan to attend the memorial service on Saturday. I may be able to answer your question after that. If I find out, I will let you know.
|
Marcell
Registered user
Username: Marcell
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 10:46 am: | |
I know this thread is old, but I just couldn't resist posting. around here, my senior pastor and his wife as well as the pastor i work for have become vegetarians, and they do it for reasons against violence, animal cruelty and economic fairness for exploited peoples. I'm mostly vegetarian because I just don't like meat, now I'm suddenly 'the expert' around here. haha
so I decided to have a little fun and point out the difficulties with wearing leather, using honey,etc if you are trying not to exploit animals, not using beef or coffee grown where there should be rain forests, etc. not using makeup tested on animals -you name it.
For a real eye-opener, you might want to read "Dominion", which comes against the usual Judeo-Christian idea of having the right to do whatever we want to the earth and animals. The writer is Christian and calls other Christians to 'mercy' toward our fellow creatures, especially those who are raised in cruel conditions and treated like a mere 'product'.
I agree that it is a personal choice and only a moral issue if the Lord calls you to it. I doubt very seriously we will hear about it from the pulpit here.
Marcell |
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