| Author | Message | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 267 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ric_B made replied to Esther in the thread titled "Two Sets of Laws..." and I wanted to begin a new thread on the topic... I am conflicted about how to deal with my historic SDA parents and maintain a relationship in spite of their absolute refusal to even consider any other truth besides their own. The problem is this: I can handle the fact that they believe SDAism and Ellen White are everything they claim they are. I have come to accept that they are deceived and the only thing I can do is pray that the Holy Spirit will brign them to a place where they can consider other truths. What I cannot handle is being in their presence and hearing this offensive dogma over and Over and OVER again. When I reply with a Scriptural answer, one of two things happens. Either they explain away my explanation with some canned SDA reply and we start going in circles over their explanation, or one of them gets angry and the conversation deteriorates into accusations of rebellion against God and my parents. I simply don't know what to do anymore. I want a relationship with my parents, but it appears that the relationship comes with the condition that they can spout all the dogma they wish, but I am to remain silently respectful of their religious freedom and not object on the grounds that it is disrespectful to both my parents and their religious liberty. I feel that I have come to the point where I have to choose between accepting the relationship on these terms or letting the relationship go down the drain for as long as it takes the Holy Spirit to remove their blinders. I worry, of course, that it will never happen and they will die in their deception. I also feel that I am not able to accept a relationship where I cannot speak freely about their dogmatic assertions. Am I being unreasonable in my expectation of equal time, so to speak? Is there any middle ground, or are these two extreme options the only ones I have? I really would appreciate any thoughts that the formers here have on this delicate topic. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 595 Registered: 7-2003 |
Wow, Freeatlast, I can identify. If you find any middle ground please let me know. As far as I can tell in my situation with SDA loved ones in my life, I have the right to remain silent and they have the right (nay, the DUTY) to expose me and my children to the TRUTH as often and as much as possible. If we refuse to allow them to send our kids "The Little Friend" or "Primary Treasure" we're "treating [them] like the enemy". If we refuse to attend church with them everytime a relative or friend comes to town or there's some special event, we're "turning our backs on our family and on the people in THE CHURCH". If we refuse to allow them to take our kids to Sabbath School, we're "keeping [their] grandkids away from their grandparents". It's just a source of continual deep pain. Somehow it's hard to imagine the pain ever ending this side of Heaven. Chris | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 120 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ditto, Freeatlast and Chris!! That's what it's like dealing with my husband. If I say I'm staying home on Saturday morning, then I'm not getting my Sabbath blessing. This Saturday we were snowbound, which was a blessing, so I didn't have to decide whether to insist I was going to stay home, or feel compelled to go along, because my kids want me to go to church and they want to see their friend. So then, we have to have 3ABN on all day. I get so sick of hearing all those stories (but they're the same story) of how someone was in a Baptist church or Lutheran church or whatever, but just sense that something is missing and then they just happen to be flipping through channels and find 3ABN or just happen to drive by an SDA church and be drawn to it. Enough of my venting.. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 116 Registered: 5-2004 |
Not having kids yet, I am eternally grateful that we did this before there are. I can see how that would greatly increase the tension level. I am reminded that Jesus said following Him would bring persecution including that from our own families. I am so grateful for this site where we can come and commiserate together. I will keep your families, Chris and Freeatlast, in my prayers! | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 117 Registered: 5-2004 |
Oh, and Madelia...you just slipped in there during my posting. I will pray for you too! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1295 Registered: 12-2003 |
Freeatlast, we have come to the place where we really don't talk much about spiritual things with our SDA relatives. We have had to face the fact that we will not, in the foreseeable future, have anything except a superficial relationship with them. The hard part, of course, is that we want our parents' blessing, even when we're adults. Richard and I have just had to accept the fact that their blessing is not forthcoming. In fact, not only is there no "blessing", but there is really an assumption that we are the enemy, and while they KNOW we would never hurt them or undercut them, they choose not to trust us in various personal ways that jab deeply. We have finally had to come to the place of limiting contact with them. We have had to set some boundaries and tell them that under certain circumstances they may no longer be with us. Instead, we have set up regular "visitation" times that are limited, and we just don't talk about anything meaningful. We have even had to make limits on holiday times. None of this feels "natural", but at least our times together now are relatively peaceful if not meaningful. They can feel that we haven't cut them off completely, and they also can feel somewhat "smug" (I know, that's a pretty cynical word!) that they are doing the "right" thing by staying in contact with their disrespectful, disappointing, betraying progeny. After all, this will probably be the only love and happiness we will ever know because we will not be saved. (That's their belief.) Altogether, there's no truly satisfying solution. You do, however, owe it to your kids (if you have them) not to allow them to hear SDA dogma from them regularly. You also cannot be embroiled in continuous fighting. Yes, you do have to surrender to Jesus your right to have equal time and speak the truth. Remember what Jesus said about not casting pearls before swine? I know that metaphor sounds really harsh when you're talking about your own flesh and blood, but you cannot keep arguing about the truth that introduced you to the One who loves you and guards your heart. It's too precious; it deserves to be treasured and protected and shared with those who will likewise treasure and protect it. Those who reject it?...we have to surrender them and our deep feelings of hurt and betrayal to Jesus. We have to surrender to Him the desire to have our parents' approval and support. We have to let God father us in the deepest places of our hearts. We have to let them go and trust God to keep us peaceful and respectful even when they are angry and cruel. We have to allow the Holy Spirit to hold our tongues when we want to respond. We are taking the arrows for Christ--they are not our arrows. So, how do Richard and I do with this surrender business? Not perfectly. But over the years, both of us have been able to increasingly surrender to God our hurt and desires for real relationships with our Adventist loved ones. It's not seamless. We have moments of anger and unguarded retorts, but more and more I'm seeing that Jesus can hold my heart, and I can let my loved ones go into His care alone. With prayers for you, Freeatlast, Chris, Madelia, and Esther--and all of us struggling with Adventist family, Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1388 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well, if you all read my postings you have noticed by now that this very topic is a constant issue with me and those most in my life. If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times and I will say it again. It's not so much the corney doctrines of the SDA church in my opinion that qualifies SDA'ism as a cult but it is the total control the organization has over its devotees. I live next door to my elderly SDA mother. She had been noticing my car was gone on Sunday mornings. She came right out and confroted me with the question, "Are you going to church on Sunday mornings?" I answered that I was. I say no more than I'm directly asked. She asked where and I told her. She asked if I was a church member and I said, "no". Everything seemed to be pretty cool as she would ask me monthly or so if I was a church member. As long as I answered "no" the situtation was tense but cordial. After around two years of this I got the question, "Are you a member of the Lutheran church you've been attending?" and this time I answered, "yes". Now, I do not know how to say what I want to say next without coming off as a complete lunitic. So, I will just say it. It was like as if a different spirit took her over. Her voice even sounded different than it generally does and she in an acusing way actually yelled at me a question/statement combination. The exact words were, "So are you taking classes in persucating the commandment keepers in the last days?" I was appalled, disguested, hurt, and numerous other emtions loaded through me all at the same time. I weakly said something about the only people that even know in the last days that Christians will be persucating SDA's are the SDA's and I went home and cried. This has been now around three years ago. It hasn't mellowed out at all. The SDA's get to spout all the SDA talk, SDA t.v. programs, SDA books and magazines at me they darn well please and if I even come back with so much as one Bible text in my defense I'm made to know that I am being decieved. I was told that after all the money spent on me to get an SDA education I owed it to my parents to be SDA. It was an investment as I understand it. With SDA's freedom of religion only goes one way. Their way or none at all. I was even told the two greatest commandments are Remember the seventh day to keep it holy and Honor your father and mother. Those are the two main ones God is going to judge us on. My SDA cousin has a ploy of asking me to go with her somewhere. Then after I get into her car she gives me the SDA babble, knowing fullwell I can't escape. Without bringing you down further I will just say one more thing. This group therapy discussion forum and friends and prayer is what gets me through it. Unless your family is open to a miracle being worked in their hearts I hope you can just reconsile that SDA's have hardened their hearts to further understanding, and this includes even the people who love them most. My prayers will be with each of us on here concernng this issue. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1389 Registered: 11-2002 |
Which reminds me. I have another difinition for Colleens dictionary of SDA words and terms. "Freedom of religion; SDA's being able to not only have the freedom to practice their religion but also having all others in society, including all employeers accommadate their idea of how they want to practice their religion; while at the same time if an employer is SDA and the employee is not SDA, the SDA employer does not have to acknowledge the employees religion since it is a false religion anyway." And you can give the example of th bill that is before the House that would require employers to give off days and times that the employee understands to be holy time, the SDA church is really pushing its members to write to their Representives to get this passed. Yet, I recently asked he local SDA pastor if my employer is SDA and I'm not then should he be required to give me off Good Friday so I can attend services. The SDA pastor told me no, it is not the same because to a SDA the Sabbath is HOLY TIME but to Sunday-keepers Good Friday is not holy time but attending church on Good Friday is a tradition, therefore a SDA employer should not have to give his non-SDA employee off to attend church on Good Friday. To SDA's the concept of freedom of religion only applies to their religion and no one elses! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 955 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have been very blessed because all my relatives, who were raised SDA, do not condemn me or say anything to me about my changes. So I will remember each of you in my prayers and your families also. The unfortunate thing with my family is that even though they no longer practice adventism, they cannot let go of it completely. There is something there they keep hanging on to and I have no idea what it is. So, Feeatlast, Madelia, Esther and Chris I have written your names in my prayer book. Give them over to God and let God handle them. After all he is so awesome and knows exactly what to do. Diana | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 46 Registered: 12-2004 |
I have been pondering this topic for awhile now, and I believe that the best analogy might be of a traditional New York Crime Family as portrayed by Hollywood. Sort of an Odd Fellas. There is a very strict code by which the family operates. There are behaviours that are not approved of, but are not addressed because there is the uncertainty that their own problems might be discovered. When the member goes outside the "family" there is a very strong attempt to coerce the member back into line, but if that is not accomplished, then the individual is considered to be not of the family and is shunned and(ok here is where it kinda falls apart) done away with. Personally I am not going to tell my family, I live a long way away from them, but I know that it would create a great deal of angst. There are several former teachers on this forum, and I know that they can testify that when in a parent teacher conference, parents tend to take concerns raised by teachers about behaviour of their children as being direct criticism of their parenting techniques. I believe that for many SDA parents one reason that they are soooo, dare I say antagonistic, is that they see any move away from the church as a strike against the spiritual training that they provided their children. (Lets not even bring EGW into this one) Also just think of the money they have sunk into schooling, etc. But most of all they see any deviation away from what they perceive as truth as one step away from God, NO MATTER WHAT WE TELL THEM. Part of it may be the ideology that all who don't worship as an adventist, aren't going to be in heaven. I do believe that this topic would make a wonderful thesis for someones psychology program. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2004 |
I have always been very open about my beliefs, but then again, my parents are much more open than average; for SDAs that it. They came to visit for Christmas and I sent them home with Pastor Greg's book on the New Covenant and a book on EGW. I also recently ordered 3 copies of Sabbath in Christ. As soon as they arrive, I will be sending one copy to my parents and one to my brother. My brother is one of those fringe SDAs. He does pretty much whatever he wants, on Sabbath or any other day, but he still defends SDA theology concerning the Sabbath. He completely agrees with me on EGW and the IJ but he can't get over the fact that, as Christians, we are not under the decalogue. Hopefuly this book will help him. I have a lot less hope for my parents, but I'm happy that at least I can be open with them without getting yelled at and persecuted like many of you. Please know that I will keep all of you in my prayers... and please do the same for me. The most dogmatic person in my family is my wife. This is very unfortunate but I keep woking on her, and I'm sure the Holy Spirit is doing the same, so there's always hope. -Adrian | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1390 Registered: 11-2002 |
I now will share a coversation I had after church last Sunday with my friend, M. She recently got back from spending several weeks i Hawaii, the same general area where I used to live so we were talking about the area. I told her in my small town there was no Lutheran church so I'd attend the little Baptist that was in town on Sundays and then again usually for the mid-week service. Her response was that she was so happy there was a Christian church in the area that I could attend to hear the Word of our Lord, after all we are all Gods children. I was so blessed by her words. They are words we do not hear from SDA's, from the top leaders of the denomination down to the pew sitters. And, we know this because just last week someone put a post on here of someone in the SDA heigharachy giving out the call to try to convince Chistians to become SDA. I have heard most SDA wittnessing is to already Christians. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1299 Registered: 12-2003 |
Goldenbear, you are absolutely right about our Adventist parents feeling they've failed. Richard's mother has repeatedly said that if she had taught Adventism to him correctly, he would not have left. He has, of course, tried to put her mind at rest regarding his leaving having anything remotely to do with her teaching, but she doesn't believe it (of course!). Praying now for you wife, Adrian! Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 597 Registered: 7-2003 |
Susan, I read the account of your conversation with some mixed emotions. On the one hand it's great that your friend was able to be open and accepting with you. I wish more SDAs would respond in a kinds accepting way. On the other, on the rare occasion I get such a response it still seems to be tinged with a certain superior smugness. I come away feeling as if I have been condescended to. Think about it......If one of your Christian friends (read non-Adventist) said, "Man I'm really enjoying the Baptist church we've been attending!" You wouldn't look at him and say, "Well, we're all God's children". The very fact that someone says that to another Christian means there's some quetion as to if it's really true. Therefore they feel the need to state what ought to be obvious. A Christian of one denomination would never ever say this to a Christian of another denomination. Only someone in a group or sect that teaches that it is the only true remnant church would feel the need to say this to someone. The other SDA response I get sometimes when I say something about my current church or my journey is, "Well, I think there will probably be some non-Adventist in Heaven". (or some variation thereof) Gee, thanks for allowing that it might be possible for some of us so-called "nominal Christians" to slip in........ In my mind, I walk away from these conversations even more convinced that Adventism is an unhealthy environment that should not be accepted as part of evangelicalism. Am I being too tough here? Chris | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2004 |
No! | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 44 Registered: 7-2000 |
I had a phone conversation with an SDA friend the other day. The conversation flowed freely and spontaneously until I told my friend about somecome at church last Sunday who gave his heart to Jesus. My SDA friend fell into noticeable silence, and from that point on, the conversation was restrained and,thankfully, brief! The majority of SDAs whom I personally know are uncomfortable when told about someone surrendering his life to Jesus, whether he did it in a church or somewhere else. This fact alone identifies clearly for me the source of the spirit that controls them. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 45 Registered: 7-2000 |
pardon my typo above! I meant "someone" | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 102 Registered: 8-2004 |
I didn't even notice the typo till you pointed it out! No problem for me here! helovesme2 | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 104 Registered: 8-2004 |
About dealing with SDA relatives, I really appriciated what Melissa had to say on another thread, in her Post Number: 673 (I hope she doesn't mind me quoting her), reguarding the SDA in her life, "He would not make the compromises he expects of me, so I decided not to allow him to disregard my beliefs in that fashion as well." That really hit home for me, and has affected the way I look at things in my own situation. There is a time to remain quiet, but also a time to act, and to speak. I pray that God will make clear what should happen in each case. I'm glad we have access to Him on a 24/7 basis! helovesme2 | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 37 Registered: 1-2003 |
Bob - "The majority of SDAs whom I personally know are uncomfortable when told about someone surrendering his life to Jesus, whether he did it in a church or somewhere else. This fact alone identifies clearly for me the source of the spirit that controls them." Why are they uncomfortable with that comment? Richard |
