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Packer_eric
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Username: Packer_eric

Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windmotion...good stuff! Let me reiterate...I am and have been in a major 'searching' mode for several years..my wife wants me to "make up my mind" and thank goodness she has been patient as have been my two young kids. I hear ya, too, on the old "where is the grace" and there is too much RULES RULES RULES....BUT...The Scriptures do speak of tribualtion, end times being brutal, etc.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 286
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric,

Here is something from the EARLY days, and it is related to the horrible "shut door" doctrine that Dane talked about:


quote:

"Then I saw that Jesus prayed for his enemies; but that should not cause us or lead us to pray for the wicked world, whom God had rejected -- when he prayed for his enemies, there was hope for them, and they could be benefitted and saved by his prayers, and also after he was a mediator in the outer apartment for the whole world; but now his spirit and sympathy were withdrawn from the world; and our sympathy must be with Jesus, and must be withdrawn from the ungodly.... I saw that the wicked could not be benefitted by our prayers now... Then I saw that scripture did not mean the wicked whom God had rejected that we must love, but he meant our neighbors in the household, and did not extend beyond the household; yet I saw that we should not do the wicked around us any injustice; -- But, our neighbors whom we were to love, were those who loved God and were serving him.

(Signed) E. G. White." (The Camden Vision, Camden, N. Y. June 29, 1851.)




Regarding the 4th Commandment--we are commanded to cast out the Old Covenant from Sinai in Galatians 4. What is this covenant? Deuterononmy 4:13 tells that it is, specifically, the Ten Commandments: "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone."

The Bible never says that the Sabbath existed from Creation. In fact, in Nehemiah 9 and Ezekiel 20 (as well as Exodus 16 and Deuteronomy 5), it says that it was given to Israel only, after they crossed the Red Sea and when they were in the wilderness.

Jeremy
Windmotion
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Post Number: 96
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Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric, yes, but it is not the focus of Scripture, and it should not be the focus of our relationship with God. I didn't get saved so I could go to heaven, I got saved b/c I was so sick of my life without God. Because of that, I know that God will take care of me whatever happens. I don't have to worry about conspiracy theories of 30,000 guillotines being stored in Georgia for a future time.
The best example I have of this is in the biography of Corrie ten Boom called the Hiding Place. In case you never read it, she was sent to the Nazi concentration camps for hiding Jews. She was released after a few years, but her sister died in the camp. Before she was taken to the camps, she admitted to her father to being terrified that she might fail her Lord if she were arrested and sent to the camps. He told her "When you were a little child, and you were going on a train journey, when did I give you the ticket? Was it two weeks in advance? No, I gave you the ticket when you got on the train. If God is going to put you through that kind of test in a concentration camp, God will be there." And according to her book, God was there, every single day.
--Hannah
Chris
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Post Number: 585
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Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After perusing the website listed above, I am greatly saddened. Cultic offshoots such as this one are the natural result of following Adventism and EGW to their logical conclusions.

Many SDAs live in constant cognitive dissonance. A few attempt to escape the dissonance by plunging headlong into such radical groups as the Branch Dividians or the group on this website.

I can almost respect the desire to not do anything by halves. In some sick way, the urge to go all the way in your devotion to EGW seems almost more nobel then picking and choosing which of her writings you will follow. But in the end, it is a downward spiral deeper into the doctrine of demons. And that is sad beyond words.

Dear Father, I pray for the people involved with "Remnant of God" and with other like groups. May your Holy Spirit change their hearts. May the Love of Jesus break through. May Jesus Christ become the very center of their lives and worship. May Jesus be elevated to His rightful place. In praying this, I believe that I am praying in agreement with Your will according to your Word. I come before Your throne boldly because of the blood of Jesus Christ our savior, and I ask for your intervention in His Holy Name. Amen

Chris
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 951
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric, When you read Ex. 20 in v. 1 it reads I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
In Deut 5:2-4, The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was not with our fathers that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.
Who did God make that covenant with? With the Children of Israel, as they were the ones He took our of Egypt, out of slavery. And Moses writes, the covenant was made with us who are alive here today meaning at the time he was talking.
I was not in Egypt as a slave and I was not alive when God gave him the covenant, so that covenant does not mean me. It was between Moses and the children of Israel. They were the ones who were told to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
I like what John 17:3 says-"and this is eternal life, to know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent.
John 15:12 "This is my command, that you love one another as I have loved you. v. 17 "This is My command to you: Love one another."
No where have I read we are to continue to keep the 7th day sabbath. Jesus was very clear in many places about what his commands are and they are that we love the Lord with all our heart, all our soul, all our mind and to love our neighbors as ourselves. I cannot find all of the texts, but when you read the book of John you will see them.
So, I rest every day in Jesus, which is so much nicer than just keeping one day and worrying if I am keeping it holy enough.
God is awesome and will teach you.
Diana
Hrobinsonw
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Post Number: 120
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric,

You mentioned that you have read in the NT about "freeing from bondage of the OT Law," or something to that effect. By making that statement it seems as if you are saying one of 3 things.

A. I have read through the NT and I flat out don't understand it.

B. I have read through the NT and I flat out don't want to understand it.

C. I have read through the NT and understand it. But I BELIEVE EGW HOLDS PRECEDENT OVER IT.

Once you understand the NT, the only question should be, "where do I go from here?"

I hope that I didn't offend you. If so, I sincerely apologize.
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1381
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 10:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bb, Your story about your friend reminds me of a friend of mine. I will share it with you all mow. My friend, P. lives in Hawaii. In fact, she is a pureblood, the term the Hawaiians use to let people know they are ethnic Hawaiian. The SDA missioaries convinced her that Adventism is the truth. She LOVES reading EGW books. She keeps her well worn Great Controversery book in her car and reads it alot. She got to the part that says the true followers of the truth are to flee the cities and scurry away to the wilderness. So she moved from her native island of Oahu to a remote location on The Big Island. Got her an acre of land out in the wilderness. She has a house. It has no electrisity, plumbling or other modern convinences, it's just a building actually. But, the really funny part is her logic which I totally love. She told me since EGW says to be away from the cities and in the wilderness anyway she figured she might as well live where she can at least go surfing every day ad eat a lot of fruit, etc. BTW, I don't think she's ever read EGW's Counsils on Diet and Health because even though she's a true-blue baptized and dedicated SDA one of her favorite things to eat is white rice with wild boars blood poured over it. I guess there is room for individualism in SDA'ism. Which makes me wonder something. When the SDA missionaries go to these remote areas where the "natives" live, where the people do not have access to modern convinences or the Westeran things, do the SDA's accommadate the culture? Like, with my friend who eats her rice with the boars blood poured over it? I attended the local SDA church with her. This was just last year. Nearly everyone at that church had ALOT of jewlery on. Most everyone had on a lot of necklaces made with shark teeth, other bones from assorted creatures, flowers, etc., jewlery that reflects their culture. After the service at the potluck was a lot of fish dishes. I am just wondering how accommadating the SDA's are to blend SDA'ism with the native ways. Does anyone know?
Bb
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Post Number: 61
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Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 7:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, you have a lot of great stories! I love reading them. I also remember as a child a family in our church who moved out into the "wilderness" and were always preoccupied with "preparing for the end times". We traveled up there a few years ago....all those folks are dead and gone, one of their children is insane, etc. It seems to be such a waste of the precious time we have here on earth!

About the culture thing, I think I read somewhere that they are changing some of their fundamentals to accommodate the differences in other countries, maybe someone else knows something about that. I can't imagine being immersed in the Great Controversy all the time and ignoring Councils on Diets & Foods!!! My mother was more into the health thing than any of the other books.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 288
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 8:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't it crazy that SDAs think leis are fine to wear, but other necklaces are sin??!! Once again, it just doesn't make sense. I've even seen an SDA conference president wear a necklace (lei) to church (at campmeeting)!

Jeremy
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 952
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan,
I really like all your stories and they are true!!
It is amazing what SDAs accomodate, I am learning.
But even more amazing to me is how much God loves us, in our sin, and is not willing that any should perish. He makes it very simple to come to Him.
That, to me, is awesome.
Diana
Susan_2
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Post Number: 1382
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Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bb, When my prents first married, around 60 years ago well before I was ever thought of there was an ad in the Recorder (That's the Western US conference magazine.) from a doctor who had bought a parcel of land way out in the wlderness. The ad said that he was wanting someone to live there for him and be his caretaker. In the meantime he'll use the place as a vacation home and when the time of trouble (There's another term for your dictionary, Colleen.) came he'd live there permanatly. My mom knew my dad liked nature and wanted to know if my dad wanted to apply for the job. Fortnately he had no interest in it. However, that area that was such wilderness back then is all a huge city now. San Diego ate that wilderness up. And, a # of years ago we saw that mans obiturary in the magazine. So much for all this escaping into the wilderness. It just doesn't stay wilderness. I have heard the SDA church many years ago picked the location for LLU because of its wilderness and isolated location.
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1384
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"TIME OF TROUBLE: When Christians persucate SDA's for keeping Sabbath." Colleen, how's that for your dictionary of SDA terms?
Susan_2
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Post Number: 1385
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Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Around a year ago on the front cover of the Review was a photo of a very handsome man who had been recently converted to SDA'ism. I'm not 100% certain of his country but for some reason Etheopia keeps coming into my mind. Anyway, this fellow had what I refer to as a Barbie Doll neck, you know, a long neck. He had the perfect neck for a lot of necklaces, which he certainly did have on, lots of beautiful necklaces. Well, not exactially laces because they didn't hang down. They were more like beautiful colorful bands around his neck. A lot of them. He was SDA. I wrote the SDA conference a postcard and quoted the fundamental that says not to wear jewlery and asked when the church changed its posiion on jewlery. I also asked if by looking at that picture we could assume jewlery was o.k. for SDA's to wear in the Western nations now. I had my return address on the card. As usual, I got no reply from the conference.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1288
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good term, Susan!

Eric, as for Ellen's early falsehoods, the one that most vividly exposed her as a false prophet to me was her statement in Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 137, where she commented about the change of the date of the Lord's expected return from 1843 to 1844:

"I saw the people of God, joyful in expectation, looking for their Lord. But God designed to prove them. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods. those who were looking for their Lord did not discover itÖGod designed that his people should meet with a disappointment."

Eric, God would NEVER DECEIVE PEOPLE.. Only a false prophet would deceive peopleóand have the unmitigated gall to accuse God of the same sin. The Bible says God cannot lie. He would never hold His hand over a mistake that people made (in their careless misuse of Scripture) in order to accomplish an ulterior motive. God does not play those kinds of games.

In order to cover up her own earlier endorsement of 1843, Ellen had to blame God for her misinformation--which she had attributed to God. She had to make God a trickster in order to save face. It's an unbelieveable blasphemy.

No, her early years were not pure. She was never God's messenger. The church used her, to be sure, but not without her complete permission. She participated in the power plays as much as did the "brethren". She has never spoken the truth about God.

As for the Sabbath, when the Pharisees took Jesus to task for his disciples' picking and eating grain on the Sabbath, part of His response was to say, "One greater than the temple is here."

I always wondered why He didn't just say, One greater than the Sabbath is here. One day I sat with the Bible and read the passage carefully and realized that the Jews considered the temple to be the center of their nation. It housed the presence of God (historically, before the shekinah glory left), the mercy seat, the law, and it was the place where the sacrifices took place. By saying He was greater than the temple, Jesus was saying that all the things the temple housed were in Him: the sacrifice, the literal reality of God, the law. In HIM is Sabbath rest. The Sabbath had been a shadow of Him as surely as the sacrifices had been. (Col. 2:16-17)

Jesus is EVERYTHING the temple represented. Jesus IS the Sabbath rest we receive when we surrender to Him. His work is finished; we can rest as did Adam and Eve when God's work was finished.

Further, (I owe this insight to Verle Striefling whose upcoming book I'm editing), the occurrance of the 10 commandments in Deuteronomy 5 is, according to Moses, the version of the 10 which was transcribed onto the stone tablets. In verse 22 Moses says, "These are the commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me."

This, according to verse 22, was the original version of the 10 Commandments. Moses said God added nothing to these words that He wrote on the tablets of stone.

The fourth commandment in this accounting (v. 12-15) says NOTHING about God creating the earth in six days. It does not tie the fourth commandment to creation in any way. Rather, it does say (v. 15-16) that they were to remember the Sabbath because they had been slaves in Egypt (where Pharaoh had refused to give them any rest), and the Lord brought them out by His mighty hand. In other words, they were now to observe (remember from then on) the Sabbath because God was now promising them rest which they were to embrace--and also give to the slaves/servants in their households, unlike Pharaoh's refusal to give rest.

The account in Exodus mentions God's creation. A commentator named Rhordorff shows that the mention of creation in Exodus 20:11 was "a later interpolation added by Jewish priests, after their return from Babylonian captivity. It was brought in from Exodus 31:17 and Genesis 2:3." (quote from Verle's book, "Bible Answers", chapter 4)

Ellen says that Abraham kept the Sabbath and that Moses was attempting to get the Israelites to observe the Sabbath while still in Egypt. These assertions are absolutely NOWHERE in the Bible. The very first time Sabbath is commanded for humans to observe was in Exodus 16 along with teh giving of the manna.

Further, Nehenmiah 9, Exodus 16 and 31, and Ezekiel 20:10-12; 18-20 state that God gave the Sabbath to Israel when they left Egypt. It did not predate the exodus. Sabbath had never been commanded before God gave it to Israel in the wilderness. It was a sign of His covenant with them, and it was in remembrance of His leading them out of Egypt.

Eric, the best thing for you to do is to study the Bible with no other commentary, praying for God to direct you to the truth He wishes you to know. As Diana (I think it was!) said, read Galatians. Read also Hebrews--it explains ind detail how Jesus is superior to everything and everyone and fulfills the Old Covenant.

Welcome back, by the way!

With prayers for you,
Colleen
4drian
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Post Number: 46
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Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Collen,

Thank you for the wonderful insights (yet another post worth saving).

-Adrian
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 692
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Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 6:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen (anyone really), I have used all those same verses with B and his only response was that God "revealed" the Sabbath to them because they had forgotten it while they were in slavery, not because it was new. And the discussion about Deuteronomy being what was written on the tablets also fell on deaf ears. Is that typical SDA response or unique to B?
Chris
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Post Number: 587
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Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 7:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a typical response and one that almost all of us once believed. If you start with a presupposition, backed by an authoritative messenger of God (EGW), then it's pretty easy to read what you want to see back into scripture. Even when the text of scripture is contradictory to your presupposition, you simply rationalize by saying, "I don't quite understand what that's saying, but I know what the Truth is so I'm not going to worry myself about it." In short, what you've been taught since the cradle takes precedent over what the apparent plain meaning of scripture seems to be. The plain meaning must be reinterpreted to accomodate your belief system. Anything else causes severe cognitive dissonance.

Chris
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1387
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Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melisssa, That what you say B. says about them having forgotten to keep Sabbath and then God had to remind them of it is the same line I get from my SDA kin. So I think it must be one of the SDA standard lines because I doubt very much if the could all be giving the same reply off the top of their heads, it had to be implanted into their heads. Am I related to B? He sounds like a relative of mine! In fact, so many of the loved ones of those who post on here sound like my kin. That's what gets under my fingernails-the total groupthink of SDA's. It's like they're clones on one another.
Windmotion
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Post Number: 97
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Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, your pen ... err typewriter is more inspired than Ellen White's ever was, and that's a compliment! As always you know exactly what to say.
--Hannah
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1292
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Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Melissa, I'm afraid B's response IS typical Adventism. Chris, you summed it up so well. ADventists have a presuuposition because of Ellen, and it just DOESN'T MATTER what the Bible does or doesn't say. They will read Scripture (or dismiss it) according to its support of their presupposition.

Ellen completely twisted the story of Israel in Egypt and the desert. The Bible doesn't even hint that God was RESTORING the Sabbath to them. He was GIVING it for the first time.

Cognitive dissonance, Chris--that's exactly right. If Adventists read the plain meaning of scripture, their cognitive dissonance would be so great that it would likely drive them crazy if it didn't pull them toward the Truth. It's amazing how much cognitive dissonance I lived with for many years before God lifted the veil in His own time. Why it took so long, I don't know--but praise the Lord He did lift it!

And, He is redeeming all those years the locusts ate. I praise Him for how He has led me.

Colleen

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