| Author | Message | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 99 Registered: 4-2004 |
When we first left, we had problems with some SDA relatives. There were ongoing arguments for several years. Then we all seemed to declare an unspoken truce. This has helped but there is still the underlying tension after 22 years. Occasionally there is still an obvious attempt at "missionary work" on their part. Dane | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1303 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, I agree completely with your post above. I have the same reactions and conclusions. Richard, I'm not Bob--I'll be intersted in his response as well--but I'll go out on a limb and give my opinion on why I believe Adventists are uncomfortable with the comment that people have accepted Jesus. In general--and there are some exceptions, especially in some of the more free-styled SDA churches such as celebration churches or those patterning themselves after evangelical community churches--Adventists are not about Jesus. They are about Adventism. While they profess Jesus, the Jesus they claim is not truly Lord of All. Yes, they would affirm that title, but they would not talk about Him that way. Most Adventists find Jesus embarrassing or uncomfortable in some way. For some, the whole idea of the cross and His blood is disquieting. They feel a sort-of cringing response at accepting something so dreadful as "theirs". It's too much to accept, and subconsiously they know it demands too much from them. For others, He is too limiting. Only one way to the Father? Please! So Jesus becomes a watered-down component in the package of salvation. For some, that "package" will simply include "sincere" belief in whatever religion they're in. Jesus will cover for what they don't know. Adventists don't like to think that "sincere" people of any persuasion might be lost. (I heard a sermon a few years ago in LLU Church that all who are saved, even those who "never heard of JEsus" and are sincere Buddhists, Hindus, etc., will be in heaven because Jesus' death secured salvation for them.) I believe many people will be saved who are not "Christians", but they will have enough revelation of God to choose to honor Him or not (Romans 1). For some Adventists (and I know this attitude has been prevalent in some of the celebration-type churches in So. Cal.), Jesus is the universal ticket to salvation. This idea is related to the idea above, except more inclusive. Jesus died for the whole world, so EVERYONE will be saved. God wouldn't allow such an important decision to hang on a person's OWN CHOICE! For traditional Adventists, Jesus is uncomfortable because he's one more "thing" to accept. His bloody cross, His overpowering love, all seem opposed to the perfection they know they must reach. Any way you look at it, a traditional Adventist has no clue what to do with Jesus except "accept" Him--whatever that means! He is "messy", and he's required. They can make him sad; they can make him turn his face away; yet they have to "love" Him. The bottom line, I'm convinced, is that most Adventists are not born again. Even those that are, I believe, tend not to equate Jesus with the eternal justice and righteousness of God the Father. The Father is about justice--(don't make Him mad!)--and Jesus will love me. Jesus is somehow weaker, softer, maybe just a tiny bit more effeminate that the Father. The idea of Jesus being one with the Father in all His attributes is an intellectual assent, but it is not usually an emotional and spiritual reality for Adventists. For Adventists, Jesus just is not the center of everything, for the most part. For many "celebration-type" Adventists, the Holy Spirit is the focus--although the job of the Spirit is to reveal Jesus. For liberal Adventists, spiritual "ideas" are central. A relationship with Jesus isn't even on the playing field. For historic Adventists, the 'distinctives' are central. Without "the rest of the gospel", a person is just an apostate Protestant who "just has Jesus". For evangelical Adventists, the gospel is moving into a central position, but even then, it takes a while for Jesus to emerge as THE POINT of everything. For evangelical Adventists, though, the journey is just beginning. When an Adventist really discovers Jesus, he/she is on his way out--even if it takes years. I rearely heard Jesus mentioned in Adventism, and I remember how uncomfortable I was saying His name for reasons I could not define. "God" felt fine; "Jesus" just had a "cringe-factor". People who talked about accepting Jesus or being born again seemed to me to be ignorant, simple, and fundamentalist. They just didn't see the "bigger picture". I remember my amazement when I heard our pastor refer to Jesus in an informal setting as "the Lord Jesus" during a spontaneous conversation. Wow! He really embraced Him as Lord--not just as part of the salvation package! I agree with Bob--for the most part, Adventists have trouble with Jesus because Adventism is founded on unbiblical teachings which subtract from Jesus' all-sufficiency. Those untruths can only come from one place--Satan. That spirit of deception has a hold on ADventism and Adventists. That hold, of course, does not mean that God is not at work among Adventists and within individual Adventists. But the system is corrupt, and it cannot teach adn endorse the true Biblical reality of the all-sufficient Jesus. Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 105 Registered: 8-2004 |
I wonder if part of the issue for Adventists is that they like to be able to interact with the 'law' as an impersonal 'thing' that is out there that we are going to be judged against. It's a means of 'keeping God at arm's length'. To accept the reality of Jesus as the Omnipotent God, who is looking straight at them, not just comparing their books with his law, would likely be overwhelming and scary. Just my two cents worth! helovesme2 | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 319 Registered: 7-2004 |
Your thought above, Colleen, of Jesus frowning and why SDAs see Jesus the way they do reminded me of something my friend gave me to read that she had copied out of an old book ìChristian Experience and Teachings of Ellen G. Whiteî. The whole thing is pretty amazing but I will try and limit the direct quotes I will share. What I quote is found on pages 78 and 79: *********************************** ìIt was a great cross for me to relate to the erring what had been shown me concerning them [people that opposed what she said]. It caused me great distress to see others troubled or grieved. And when obliged to declare the messages, I would often soften them down, and make them appear as favorable for the individual as I could, and then would go by myself and weep in agony of spiritÖIt was hard to relate the plain, cutting testimonies given me of God. I anxiously watched the result and if the persons reproved rose up against the reproof and afterward opposed the truth, these queries would arise in my mind: Did I deliver the message just as I should? Could there not have been some way to save them? And then such distress pressed upon my soul that I often felt that death would be a welcome messenger, and the grave a sweet resting-place." "I did not realize that I was unfaithful in thus questioning and doubting, and did not see the danger and sin of such a course, until in vision I was taken into the presence of Jesus. He looked upon me with a frown, and turned His face from me. It is not possible to describe the terror and agony I then felt. I fell upon my face before Him, but had no power to utter a word. Oh, how I longed to be covered and hid from that dreadful frown!î ************************************* Is that blasphemy or what!!! The very thought of our loving LORD and Savior frowning at someone, whom He loved so very much that He suffered and died for, is complete apostasy. It absolutely sickens me. It is no wonder that I did not fully comprehend the grace and love of Jesus Christ. Praise God for my new picture of Jesus! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1393 Registered: 11-2002 |
Chris, the conversation I had with my friend, M. was started by me. I was the one who had first said in our encounter that I had been hoping to find a local Lutheran church in that area and there was none. So, I went to the little Baptist church at the end of the street. In all fairness, I think it was me that was hinting at denominalationalism (Is that the right spelling?) and not her. About Jesus being talked about by SDA's. I have paid very close attention to this. Cradel Roll through Primary the kids get lot of Jesus stories and taught to believe in and to trust Jesus. Then in Juniors the Jesus teaching gets less and less until by the time those same kids are now all grown up and in the adult SS class Jesus is for the most part non-existant in Bible study. This follows the same pattern in the SDA day schools. Kindergarten through third. In forth grade the denomination starts weaning the kids off of Jesus and then in 5th grade the SDA schools really start pounding the distinctive doctrines into the kids. Since the SDA is such a closed society, with it's members almost only socializing with other SDA's, their kids go to SDA schools, their children have Pathfinders again with the same children and the same adults, the SS that the ids attnd and the SDA day schools are both weaning the kids off Jesus at around age 10-11. Being such a closed society the kids are unaware of what's happening because it is a group thing. The are all experiencing the same things at the same time. Think about it. When was the last time "Jesus Loves Me" was sung in the adult worship service in an SDA church, and I don't mean by the little kids putting on a show from the front. I mean by the aduts. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 291 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yes, what blasphemy! "Oh, how I longed to be covered and hid from that dreadful frown!" That proves that she was not a Christian! And she had the WRONG Jesus! Also, she's admitting that her "testimonies" were not "inspired"? That she related the "reproofs" wrongly?? Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 290 Registered: 4-2000 |
HEARTACHE TURNED TO JOY When Judy and Jim Robertson felt a spiritual void in their lives, they found "the finest people in the world" to embrace them and a beautifully packaged religion to entice them. Once drawn into Mormonism, they quickly climbed to leadership positions and became worthy temple Mormons, only to become disillusioned with the teaching and demands of the LDS church. Judy's book, "Out of Mormonism: A Woman's True Story" is a 215-page addition to my library. Judy takes the reader through the secretive, sealing ceremonies in a Mormon temple. Step by step and room to room she relates their five-hour-long ordeal in the temple. From stark nakedness to full celestial attire, she reveals the scary inside story of Mormonism. As I read this book, I found constant similarities between Adventism and Mormonism. Here is a brief sampling of their commonalities: *Health message *Extrabiblical authority *Prophetic gift *Tithing enforced *Persecution complex *Sleek evangelism *Shunning *Refusal to acknowledge that one can study and prayer their way out *The only true church *Both "angel" guides used Old English only *Both prefer the KJV to articulate their beliefs *Denomination-wide Bible class guides for all ages *Formers are considered as enemies *Arrogant apologists *Striking similarities between the writings of Joseph Smith and Ellen White *Hierarchical church government *Similar historical context *Initial claims of not being a prophet I am sure there are many other similarities between these two nineteenth-century cults. I heartily recommend this book for your library. For further information, you can visit: www.concernedchristians.org. I remember the time when Seventh-day Adventists advertised their Bible Story books by Arthur S. Maxwell in the official Mormon magazine, THE IMPROVEMENT ERA. There was a prepaid, business reply card to tear out as a lead card for colporteurs to follow up. However, I don't think the Mormons really knew that they were SDA books--at least not initially. It was a case of one cult trying to deceive another one. The blind leading the blind. I still remember visiting a Mormon family due to THE IMRPOVEMENT ERA lead cards. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1304 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Dennis, I've also noticed the similarity between Mormonism and Adventism. They both also keep changing (at least publicly) their doctrinal interpretations. They're moving targets, evading whatever the current Christian criticisms are. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 694 Registered: 7-2003 |
I can't even describe the shock the first time B told me that knowing the name of Jesus was irrelevant. You just had to know there was God, all of which he claims came from Romans 1-3, where it talks about seeing evidence of God in creation...so you don't really have to know Jesus name to know God is out there.... I looked in my Strongs concordance and found a lot of references about the name of Jesus.... Of course, who bothers with scripture when you have your "correct" church to get you through. I still think of that when I contemplate whether B is even saved at all. He sure knows some of the right things to say when asked pointed questions, but I just don't see the fruit of the spirit in his life or his actions. Other times, I don' t think he has a clue what salvation is and that is equally confusing. How can you quote the gospel on one hand and yet quote SDA dogma as fact on the other hand? Sometimes I think it's his 'progressive revelation' views that create the conflict for me. I don't think there's anything else coming beyond scripture, he does. So weird, and so incredibly sad.... | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1396 Registered: 11-2002 |
Melissa, My heart aches in you situtation with B. Please, remember you and B. are both in my prayers. I will call the Christian bookstore tomorrow, Dennis and ask about ordering the book you mentioned about the former Mormon lady. Another website I like going to is www.watchthetower.org, as is implied in the title it is a website similiar to this one only geared for former JW's. You can go to where it says, "Organization Steals Artwork". There you can plainly see that the Watchtower organization copied the pictres from the SDA Bible Story Books for the JW kids book.On their comment board I sent in a comment that it is no big deal that the SDA's ad their art stolen for another religions books because after all EGW is known to have stolen much of her writings. Mr. Blizzard, the owner/operator of the website responded back, "Birds of a feather...". How true. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1307 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, I think most Adventists have some version of B's attitude. I suspsect it stems from their refusal to understand the New Covenant. In the Old Testament, the reality of Jesus was veiled. Paul talks in Colossians about the mystery of God: Christ who is now revealed to us. If we take seriously the idea that "progressive revelation" does NOT mean new light will continue to come from extra-biblical sources, then "progressive revelation" must refer to the Bible. The New Testament reveals the reality behind the shadows of the Old. Adventism prefers to live in the shadows, and it refuses the glory of the new covenant in favor of making the old covenant normative. If the old covenant is our baseline, not the revelation of God through Christ Jesus, then the New Testament must be interpreted in the style of the Old Testament. The reality of Jesus cannot be greater than the shadows. In other words, the New Testament, to an Adventist, is, in a way, just presenting new metaphors and shadows. Jesus must be analyzed in light of the law instead of the other way around. With that attitude, knowing Him isn't necessary at all. The law remains the center of our existence, not Him. He just came to explain and clarify the law and make it accessible to us--rather that coming to fulfill and replace the law in our lives. Who really needs Jesus, after all, if one has the law? BTW, have you ever noticed how often Adventists tout the eternity of the law? You really never hear them discussing the sovereign majesty and eternal power of Jesus. You DO hear them saying God's law is eternal, Jesus came to die to uphold the law, etc. The law (the shadow) has replaced the reality (Jesus) in their theology. That replacement is idolatry. It's worshiping the created rather than the Creator. Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 268 Registered: 5-2002 |
Colleen, you said "Jesus is somehow weaker, softer, maybe just a tiny bit more effeminate that the Father". That reminds me of the old Sears commercials, "Come see the softer side of Sears". Jesus - come see the softer side of God... | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 292 Registered: 10-2004 |
Collen, I totally agree with you. Did you know that EGW even said something along those lines? She said that Jesus did NOT need to come to this earth, but that He came just to show us more clearly how to keep the LAW! Here is the quote:
And Ellen did say that there is only one way to heaven, but according to her that one way was NOT believing on the Lord Jesus Christ! She wrote:
She plainly declared that the only way to heaven is by "doing His works." She outright teaches salvation by works! Jeremy | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 155 Registered: 9-2004 |
My dear C recently said "Thank you Jesus!" to something that happened. I tried not to act shocked but I really was like "Lord, are you actually getting closer to him?" Is he letting you do that?" I didn't comment. But I sure felt happy. He also recently tooke a bite of my chicken sandwich. Who knows!! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1399 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tracey, I am happy to hear of the progress. Even those baby steps are a beginning. Jeremy, the quotes you gave above is just how I was raised. It was not implied that we could be perfect as Jesus was perfect, it was flat-out taught to me. I was taught that Jesus was fully human, every bit as human as you or me or anyone else. IF He could overcome temptation and not sin in His humanity then we SHOULD be able to do likewise. Since Jesus was able to live a perfect life than we are able to do the same. I was also taught that Jesus became our Savior by His having overcome sin. But, at his conception and birth He was totally human. Of course, this teaching is totally opposite to the Bible, in the prophicies of Isiah as well as in the Christmas story where the angel says His name is to be Immunual for he is come to be the Savior of His people. It also goes opposite to the many times when Jesus refers to himself as our Savior and when Jesus says, "the Father and I are one. He who has seen me has seen the Father" and of course, John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." The older I get the more I just don't even consider the SDA church even Christian. I am not referring to the individual SDA people who are Christian and are SDA but rather to the organization, it's teacings and the teachings of EGW. So muc of it s just blasphomaus. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1310 Registered: 12-2003 |
Perhaps we have another ADventist definition here: "Jesus is the only way to the Father" means "We must walk as Jesus walked to get to the Father." Thanks, Jeremy. It's amazing what she really said--if more people only knew! Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 98 Registered: 6-2001 |
Having a two-year-old makes me wonder how Jesus (if he had a sinful nature) survived being that age. I have not actually decided yet if Bethany is "sinning" yet when she is willfully disobedient, but I suspect she is. I have a prayer request. We will be attending a funeral Sunday of my husband's mom's favorite cousin who recently died of cancer. She has been fighting it for many years. It is already shaping up to be a very depressing event. From what David has told me, this woman was a very sweet (adventist) Christian while she was alive. Still his mom has already said "I hope I will see her in heaven." I'm not sure if she says this so she won't be as disappointed if she doesn't show up, or if she genuinely wonders if her cousin did enough to make it. Anyway, never having been to an Adventist funeral, pray I will not say too much or too little about this or any subject. --Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1312 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hannah, praying for you to be filled with wisdom and discernment and understanding. Adventist funerals are depressing events. Be prayed up--and ask God to guard your heart in Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1400 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hannah, What a joy it must be for you to have a two year old. And, you must be very tired also. If your child takes naps then the best advice I can give is that you rest while the little one is resting. As far as funeral go, the only thing I can say is the only funeral I've ever been to that was more of a downer than a SDA funeral was the one JW funeral I went to. Generally the preacher up in the front says things like she is sleeping in the grave now until the soon coming of Jesus and we can only hope when the books are opened to her name that she is worthy of the kingdom. Afterwards though you get to eat a lot of vegetarian food and chitchat with people you haven't heard from for years. Then on the way home you can stop at a real restruant and get some real food and drinks. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 294 Registered: 10-2004 |
Your post made me laugh, Susan. I think there is more joy at a Christian funeral than at an SDA wedding (that's because it's Christian, of course  ). SDA funerals are just indescribably gloomy. I'll pray for you, Hannah. The comment about "I'll hope I'll see her in heaven" could mean either way, but usually SDAs have a lot more confidence in the dead person's salvation than their own--a lot of them seem to think that if you die before the "close of probation" you don't have to become perfect! But, of course, according to the SDA doctrine, the dead person doesn't really actually have any chance of salvation since God has to re-create the non-existent person and it wouldn't even really be the same person!!! Jeremy |
