| Author | Message | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hi guys, I've been reading CARM for some time but I finally couldn't handle it anymore so I had to sign up and reply. Here's the post that made me do it: --------------------------------------------- "Two sets of laws?" --------------------------------------------- I was doing a bit of studying this morning and came across this old testament scripture: "De 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, De 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,De 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee." This clearly states that the book of the law was not stored in the ark with the decalogue. It also states that the book of the law was "there for a witness AGAINST thee." I am not aware of scripture that says the commandments of God are a witness against us...unless someone can find it for me. Now....to the new testament and this scripture: " Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances THAT WAS AGAINST US, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross..." Paul is writing to the church in Colosse.....speaking of the handwriting of ordinances "THAT WAS AGAINST US".....God wrote the ten commandments with His finger, on stone. The law of Moses was done in handwriting, in a book......The scripture in Deuteronomy confirms that it is the book of the law of Moses that was a witness against the people, not the commandments of God....Paul affirms that the ordinances were a witness against us as well, without making mention in this verse of the commandments of God. Paul can only be speaking of the book of the law that Moses wrote, as it is the only other law that the bible speaks of being "against us." Colossians and Deuteronomy testify that the book of the law placed in the side of the ark was against us.. My questions: 1.Where does it say specifically,in the bible, that the ten commandments are against us? 2.What is specifically contained in the ten commandments that would be against or contrary to the follower of Christ today? SDA --------------------------------------------- AND HERE'S MY REPLY: Ok, this is the silliest argument I have ever read. It actually got me to sign up with CARM so I could reply. First of all, let's define the law. The Law = The Pentateuch. The Jews were never commanded to keep the Ten Commandments. They were commanded to keep the law. The law includes the Ten Commandments, both in Deuteronomy and Exodus, but is much more than just the Ten Commandments. You could safely say that the Ten Commandments are a summary of the law but you cannot say that keeping the ten commandments (not that it's possible) is keeping the law. Remember that Moses specifically tells us that the WHOLE law, including the Ten Commandments, was given to him by God. If you are under the law, you are under the whole law. You cannot pick and choose which part of the law you want to be under. I have yet to see any SDA advocate the true keeping of the law as given, and commanded, by God. SDAs pick the Ten Commandments and then disregard the rest of the law, as given by God to Moses, because it does not suit their purposes. Now on to my second point. Let's say that Canada has a law against murder (which of course it does). Now, if I am an American living in New York, and I kill someone in New York, does this mean that I broke the Canadian law against murder? NO, IT DOESN'T. I didn't break a Canadian law because Canada has no jurisdiction over me. This doesn't mean that I should go around killing people. Now this isn't a perfect analogy because I didn't take into account the US law against murder but here's how it translates to a discussion of the two covenants: If I kill someone, I have not broken the law of Moses because I am not under its jurisdiction. There is nothing wrong with the law of Moses, its just that Christians are not under its jurisdiction. This is the concept that Paul tells us over and over in the New Testament. I really don't understand why SDAs don't get it because the NT is very persistent, and very clear, in this regard. Now some of you will ask how I can know that murder is wrong if not for the law of Moses. There are two answers to this question. 1. The first, and most important, answer is that Christ gave us the commandment to love. So if we are to love God and our fellow man, it is obvious that murder is wrong. 2. There is a second, less important, reason that is nonetheless very interesting and philosophically intriguing. Paul tells us, in Romans, that before there was a law, there was sin. He specifically says that between Adam and Moses there was no law and yet sin still existed. He also tells us that the law was added to make sin more evident. So obviously there is a way to know what is sinful apart from the law of Moses. Ok, glad I got that off my chest. Before I post thisÖ one last request for all SDAs. Please do not post asking me which commandment I should not keep. I have already answered your question. Paul tells us that there is nothing inherently wrong with the law. It served its purpose and it continues to exist; hence Paulís admonition that we should not place ourselves back under the law. So there is nothing wrong with the law, its just that it does not apply to us as Christians. The New Testament tells us this over and over incessantly. In fact, if it werenít for the fact that many people still donít get it, I would be left to wander why Paul couldnít talk about anything else. -Adrian --------------------------------------------- I decided to post this here because this is a subject that constantly comes up with my SDA family and friends. I'm sure all of you deal with the same thing so I'm hoping to get a broad range of responses to this issue. It would be interesting to see how you all deal with this subject. -Adrian | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 121 Registered: 7-2004 |
Adrian, Nevermind that site. When Paul says those that are bound to one letter of the law are bound to it in its entirety. And if they are bound to the law then they have no purpose for Jesus Christ (paraphrased) I have been reading Romans. Romans 10: 1-4 (NIV) "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that theay are zealous for God but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not SUBMIT to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." Above, In Paul's prayer he is stating that Isaelites are not saved because they have not submitted. You must submit to Christ in order to be saved. You can say that you believe but when your actions say something different, then you really didn't believe in the first place. The book of James says that Faith without works is dead. Don't say you have faith in Christ and you hold on for dear life to the very thing that he came to die for. The SDA are very much like Israelites. In fact they may be worse. I hold Romans 10 to be true. Until they submit completely, then they too will perish like the Israelites. Some Israelites chose Christ, that is why we have the book of Hebrews, and according to Romans 11:4-6, there is a REMANANT of Israel that exists, but is those that are amongst them that are chosen by grace. | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-2004 |
Adrian, I am continually amazed at how adventists, and I was one for 50 years, try to prove things out of the bible like you would skip a stone across a pond. Each scripture is read, not in context, but to explain the next unrelated scripture. I believe that the basic lesson I have learned over the last year, basically from my wife, is the simplicity of the bible. If it says it, I believe it. When I was teaching, I used to tease my English teachers, I taught science, that there was no way you could understand what a poet meant by their poem. One of the things that seems to give adventist their feelings of authority in scripture is that they, through their "prophet" have an understanding of what the authors of the bible were thinking and the background. In fact it is so pervasive that when I am in a Bible study now, I have to check to make sure that what I am saying is in the bible. (Recently, talking about the good samaritan, I said that the people who were involved in the story, were present in the crowd. Someone called me on it) I am always amazed at how a person can get so far from the gospel,when it seems so clear. I believe that it is rooted in where your anchor is. If your anchor is the bible, it can be clear, if it is other sources, your study of the bible is clouded. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 691 Registered: 7-2003 |
Adrian, I thought your reply good, but as I'm sure you're aware, I've never met an SDA who would be swayed by scriptures such as those sited. First, they go running to Matthew where it says to pray their flight didn't need to happen on the Sabbath.....and that's all they need to prove the Sabbath was ongoing. Then, for good measure, consider Isaiah where they are supposedly going to be keeping the Sabbath in heaven, where there is no night.... These scriptures seem to be all the evidence needed to "prove" they are right about what they say. It's quite sad actually. | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 231 Registered: 2-2002 |
You did a great job Adrian....and I agree with Melissa, the close-minded SDAs you are dealing with will not be swayed, but it still is an awesome thing you, Pheeki, Ric, Carol, and others are doing on CARM. Think of the many, many lurkers who are considering Adventism that read that site. Surely God is using you. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 114 Registered: 5-2004 |
I came into work this afternoon with a heavy heart as I just spent the last couple hours "discussing" this very topic with my SDA parents. It makes me sick to think of the pain I'm causing them, and how they try their hardest to refute what I'm saying. And when I choose to just keep silent, they think i really don't know what I believe. None of my SDA friends or relatives can accept that we are following God's call on our lives and hearts...and that the Bible can really be read and interpretted very straight forwardly. Not, by picking and choosing what applies and what does not. Anyway, after 3 hours of spliting hairs over whether or not this term Law means the same as that term law, and the Law is of course in Heaven, and Paul can't be talking literally even when he has whole passages that the food laws weren't necessary anymore...and that Sabbath, in colossians is not "the sabbath", and that Abraham even kept God's law...finding this as the first thread this morning feels like God's little hug to me. Thanks for all the above posts  | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 232 Registered: 2-2002 |
Esther, As Diana says "God is awesome!!!" Amazing how he always picks us up and kisses away the pain when we need it most. I've seen Him do that over and over again in my life. God bless you. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1291 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, Esther--I'm so sorry. Your experience confirms somesthing I've been thinking lately; it seems that sometimes the "fallout" with those who are closest to us isn't really at its worst when we first leave. It sort-of grows in intensity as time passes. I'm convinced that those who don't want to know the truth become increasingly resistant and hostile. Sometimes, I suspect, their emotion about it is because the Holy Spirit is really calling them, and they're in an ongoing spiritual battle they can't even identify. I'm so sorry about your parents. I'm praying as I write this that God will comfort your heart, give you reassurance of His presence in and with you, and show you how to love your parents for God, not just for their or your benefit. God is faithful; He is more real and consistent than any human can be to us. Adrian, your answer was really good. As Meslissa said, though, don't be surprised if it does nothing to sway them. It's the lurkers who may most benefit from your post! Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 469 Registered: 1-2003 |
The church I am attending now (on Sunday) is so awesome. My husband (entire family) went with me. I was afraid my husband wouldn't like it but he loved it. Anyway...the pastor was talking about worry and he plain said it is a SIN to worry. It is basically saying you don't trust and believe God. A light came on for me. I had wondered if SDA (namely Ellen White) were saved...and then he said worry is SIN and I thought, no one worries more than SDA's. They worry about probation closing, diet, time of trouble...the pastor said pagans worry about what they will eat, drink and wear, etc. The children of Isreal worried and God was sorely vexed with their dis-belief...and the bible clearly says dis-belief is sin. Make sense? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 192 Registered: 7-2004 |
Esther, You point out a serious issue that each of us face with loved ones. We know they are hurt by our decisions (because of the cultic deceipt they suffer). We know that we will never "argue" them into understanding. But at the same time, how do we let them know that yes we really have studied considerably to come to our decisions. How much do we say? How strongly do we say it? What will be the longest lasting witness? | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 115 Registered: 5-2004 |
I know Ric, it is so painfully hard to see that pain...watch my parents struggle and cry with this. To juggle what we say to them. In my instance my dad is a pastor (my husbands too). Quite frankly I have never argued with my parents about anything even remotely like this before. So it's very uncomfortable for all of us for me to suddenly not believe in adventism. And it's not like it's a small disagreement. My entire spiritual reality has changed. It seems we're at odds about 90% of the NT and 70% of the OT. Of course, we're at odds over the law, the sabbath, the state of the dead, the "spirit of prophecy"...everything. It's not like we can declare a truse over one topic. And, adventists think EVERYTHING is salvific. They drew back in horror when I said I believed in verbal inspiration. Like, "oh, that's where the problem is". I hate how all of these discussion with any adventist results in discrediting the Bible. I watch a bit on CARM and it's the same. Discredit Paul have him thrown out of the Bible; discredit the Jews understanding of the law; discredit the meaning behind the words; discredit the Bible itself...IT's ALL THE SAME DECEPTION!!! And yet, I get the lines of guilt directed my way for how wrong this is, and I will be accountable for everyone I lead away from the "truth". Not to mention my own guilt for causing the pain. BTW: not that we were there, but a good friend of our was and in PMC this weekend Dwight preached from Romans and "rocked" the audience by opening with "If you think you're saved cause your Adventist, you're wrong. If you think you're saved by keeping the Sabbath, you're wrong" he proceeded to list all the SDA "truths" and stated that though good, they're not able to save. Apparently, he then preached a sermon on Romans 4 and Abram/Sara faith. Unfortunately, he didn't wrap it up all together. But it did seem on the edge from anything I ever though to dream of hearing from an SDA pulpit. I couldn't help but think, Colleen, that you're impressions to pray for him are very appropriate. Also, we turned our letter in last week!!! Praise God it's done. I think, thanks to everyone's excellent suggestions, and the Holy Spirits guidance...that it was very appropriate for the situation (though it was shorter than my original). Here's what we wrote: **** After almost a year of prayerful study of the Gospel and the New Covenant, and then subsequently the Fundamentals of Adventism, we find that doctrinally and practically we can no longer consider ourselves to be Seventh-day Adventist. Therefore, for solely theological considerations, we hereby request that our names be immediately removed from your membership records. Thank you for your prompt confirmation, by mail, that our request was fully honored. We extend our heartfelt gratitude for the warmth and fellowship we experienced while attending for the past four years. May Christís rich love fill you and continue to bless all who diligently seek Him. **** I do have my longer more detailed version ready should anyone request it Though I don't consider it likely. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 593 Registered: 7-2003 |
Ric, I too struggle with questions you've posed. My in-laws practically roll their eyes when I say anything about studying the Bible. They continue to say things like, "Well you can't just study on your own. Who have you talked with? You just need to talk to someone because you obviously don't understand". It doesn't matter that I talked to many knowlegable people during my journey. I obviously didn't talk to the right ones. If I try to talk about what I believe and why, they say they don't want to even hear it and reiterate that I obviously need to talk to someone. They're convinced that if I just sat down with the right learned person (some pastor or professor) that all my so-called "questions" would be adequately explained to me. I have to admit this gets my goat a little because this comes from people that have never in their life read a single book of the Bible all the way through........and yet, I'm the one that is obviously wrong. As an aside, I should say that I truly love my in-laws and they are very dear people. It just continues to amaze me though how much discord the SDA belief system creates between us. I pray all the time for God to find a way to reconcile us so that we can return to the loving close relationship we once had. The whole thing is just so frustrating and painful some days that I just don't even know what to do with it. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 594 Registered: 7-2003 |
Congratulations on turning your letter in Esther! If your experience is anything at like mine, it's like a great big huge weight being lifted off you or a dark cloud being blown away by a refreshing breeze. Chris | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 121 Registered: 2-2003 |
Esther, Congratulations!! I like the letter: concise, yet hits the key points you want to address. Do you mind if I copy it? I'm planning on writing my letter this spring | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 118 Registered: 5-2004 |
Go for it...I kind of took some things from ideas that others posted earlier. Good luck with the process of writing...I've been trying for many months. | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 156 Registered: 4-2002 |
Here's a suggestion, When your parents tell you that you should talk to 'SOMEONE", ask them who. Then tell them that you will talk to anyone they wish you to talk to, as long as the basis for the talk is the Bible and the Bible only. Bet "someone" never shows up for the talk. If he does, he will want to get back to you with answers to your questions and beliefs. That will probably be the last time you hear from him. I had a lengthy conversation with a family member some years ago. To all of his quotes, I kept handing him my Bible and telling him to "show me". When he realized that he was giving me EG instead of the Word, he finally just laid the Bible down and said, "Please don't take her away from me. She's all I've got." I really wanted to cry. I still get the one sided comments, because it really IS all they know. But they are no longer willing to attempt to go "one on one" with me. In the meantime, I pray for them and in every way I know, live and hold up the Gospel and that blessed cross! In His Service <>< Thomas | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1296 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thomas, good advice. Congratulations, Esther! Doesn't it feel good? Chris, your description of the relief was so apt! The issue of Adventists' scorn toward Biblical innerrancy is one that really disturbs me--increasingly so, I believe. I'll never forget the Adventist faculty of religion member who said presumptuously to Richard and me when we told him we were leaving, "You'll take many of your Adventist traditions with you. One will be the non-inerrancy of the Bible." I remember looking at him--there was nothing more we could say to him at that moment--and thinking, "You couldn't possibly say these things if you knew Jesus." Verle Streifling, whom some of you may recognize from his articles in Proclamation over the years, says this: The Living Word and the written word must be consistent because one represents the communication of the other. Therefore, if the written word has errors, the Living Word must have sin. I'd never thought of it like that before. It's such a succinct summary! Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 308 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thanks Colleen, Verle's quote will be perfect for my class tomorrow night which is about verbal, plenary inspiration. I find so many Christians really don't appreciate this doctrine and how it is a real shield against so many false teachings. And yes, I hear the 'well, that's just your interpretation, but it's not the only one'--all the time from SDA's. I sat down with the new SDA pastor for the local church my wife attends and showed him text after text refuting 'thought inspiration'. I haven't heard anything more from him now for about three weeks! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 956 Registered: 3-2004 |
Congratulations Esther on your letter of resignation from the SDA church. God is with you and will continue to be with you, even carrying you when you need it. He really cares about you and your loved one and is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2005 |
This discussion on Law made me reminisce! Do you remember back in the 80ís when there was a contemporary Christian song out? I think it was called ìI Have Decidedî. There were 2 distinct versions: ìI have decided that BEING GOOD IS JUST A FABLE / I canít ëcause Iím not able / Iím going to leave it to the Lordî vs. ìI have decided that BEING GOOD IS NOT A FABLE / I can ëcause He is able / Iím going to live what I believeî To me that illustrated nicely the great argument in Christianity, namely that of ìIíve accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. Now what?!?î When I was still an SDA, I had a very complicated answer to that question. Once I repudiated SDA, over time I developed a simplistic answer to that question, one that has been a boon to me, but may be ugly to others. Indeed, I now find the question of ìNow whatî to be very silly! Legalists point out that some Christians use Salvation as a license to sin more. These people will sin, and then simply confess. How can their ìfruitî be evidence of Godís grace? Those who believe in faith alone sometimes counter-argue with a ìso-whatî argument. Jesus died for both Mother Teresa AND Adolph Hitler. Both sides miss the point. We had a Conscience long before we were saved. God gave us our Conscience; how else would we come to accept Jesus as our personal Savior? Now donít get me wrong. We are born into sin, and are in desperate need of redemption. We contradict our Conscience, often on a daily basis. But this still doesnít alter the fact that we are instinctively humane by nature. Being saved no more turns us against our existing Conscience than it gives us sudden, instant perfection. Divine forgiveness gives us awesome power to fight our inner demons, but it wonít guarantee victory, let alone free us from the fight. Perfection is the goal, but by no means is it the standard. We are poor judges of character, especially when it comes to our own selves. We may view and judge in a general sense, based on the over-all picture one presents, but even then, we may well miss the mark. |
