Archive through January 27, 2005 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 3 » Cult-like Features » Archive through January 27, 2005 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Goldenbear
Registered user
Username: Goldenbear

Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 5:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wham - a rubbery substance that is supposed to be like ham.
Wine - fermented grape juice (used only in a negative context)
Wine - Grape juice, unfermented (this context used only when the mention in the bible is positive, ie Jesus changed the water to wine, er, grape juice)
call - this is a term used to tell others that you have a job offer in another area.
Union - an church organizational structure usually consisting of several smaller groups, called conferneces that usually follow state lines.
Pathfinder - a youth organization that mimics the scouts. (This is not a vehicle)
Cradle Roll - the earliest organized class offered on Sabbath to young people, usually inhabited by mothers as well. This is NOT cruel treatment of babies.
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 191
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 6:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your post caused me to think. SDAs use the same principle of Biblical interpretation (if we can call it that) when it comes to both the law and wine (and even meat). If it is spoken of in a good way then it has one meaning (the 10 Commandments, grape juice, and generic food), if it is spoken of negatively then it has another (legalism or "ceremonial law, fermented wine, and all animal products). Since the words have such fluid definitions, the word can always mean what they want it to mean!
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 588
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 7:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SDAs aren't the only ones guilty of this. I heard Adrian Rodgers on his radio show last week strongly hammering the point home that Jesus never ever drank wine or made wine. Whenever the Bible talks about wine in connection with Jesus it means grape juice. Then he turned to other texts that use the word wine in a negative sense, but in those texts the word suddenly really meant wine.

Also most reformed theologians do the same thing with the Law. Whenever the NT talks about the Law in a positive sense it means the morale aspects of the Law, especially the Decalogue, but whenever the same word is used in a negative sense it refers to ceremonial aspects of the Law.

Never mind that there is no linguistic, contextual, historical, or theological reason to make these sort of arbitrary distinctions.

Chris
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa

Post Number: 693
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 7:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard a pastor this weekend on tv saying that 'archaeologists" have "proven" that the wine in Jesus day was what we would call grape juice. This seems to be an argument across lines...but my question is .... why would drunkenness be mentioned if it were not that there were intoxicating drinks? I'm not any expert on alcohol, but I would tend to think that wine may have been one of the earlier drinks to be alcoholic (didn't Noah get drunk off his vineyard? Obviously wine was alcoholic in his time....). I've also been told that the reason Jesus' miracle got such attention for being "good" wine was that they usually served the best wine first and saved the cheap stuff for later when more people had left or were already too drunk to notice. I don't know how reliable an argument that is either, but it does explain the comment about saving the best wine for last. Anyway, it seems a silly argument to me... the Bible is CLEAR we are not to be drunk, or under the influence of some other substance (which B enjoys using to refer to caffeine in coffee...). Seems to me, we ought to encourage people to seek God's direction on this one, remembering the clear mandate not to be drunk... And though I personally do not drink, that has more to do with growing up with an alcoholic uncle than my thoughts it is somehow "sinful". It is also an issue of how closely can we skirt to the line of sin before we go over it. Is it one drink or two? Can you go to a bar and get that drink or only in a resturant. So many issues to process.... It's just not worth my time to worry about it (besides, it's expensive in my budget....)
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1293
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great point, Chris, about the Reformed tendency to do with "law" what many do with "wine". That problem is the basis of so much or our trouble helping Christians understand that Adventism isn't just a particularly legalistic form of Christianity. It's also the reason Adventists are so successful evangelizing other Christians.

As long as Christians tout the law as a standard for Christians, Adventists will have the better argument.

Whatever happened to Jesus alone?

Colleen
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 590
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen said: "As long as Christians tout the law as a standard for Christians, Adventists will have the better argument."

EXACTLY!!!

Chris
Dennisrainwater
Registered user
Username: Dennisrainwater

Post Number: 109
Registered: 8-2000
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am quick to agree that we must not be drunkards -- but to allege that the Bible forbids the consumption of any form of alcohol is an absurdity which it's sad to see is not confined to Adventism. (That's part of the 5% that makes me out of step with some of my Baptist brethren...)

What does any of these groups make of Deuteronomy 14:22-26? Uh-oh -- come to think of it, I've never heard Adventists (or teetotalling Baptists) address this passage... ;-)

Here is the passage from the King James Version:


quote:

22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. 23And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. 24And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee. 25Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose. 26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth; and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,




\heavy sarcasm {Without even touching the point of TITHE taking the form of food that you are to eat yourself in celebration, I can imagine it would drive the average SDA pastor apoplectic to be forced to explain why God *mistakenly* allowed the children of Israel to use their tithe to purchase "strong drink" to consume with their family -- while He later more accurately instructed us by means of Mrs. White to forswear all forms of alcohol...}

Strong's Lexicon renders the Hebrew word translated as "strong drink" thus:


quote:

7941 ˜‹‰Î»¯ [shekar /shay…kawr/] n m. From 7937; TWOT 2388a; GK 8911; 23 occurrences; AV translates as ìstrong drinkî 21 times, ìstrong wineî once, and ìdrunkardî once. 1 strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating LIQUOR.




Kind of cuts the legs out from under the "wine only means grape juice" crowd...

Grateful for freedom,
Den <><
Goldenbear
Registered user
Username: Goldenbear

Post Number: 48
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Den,
I was just reading your post to my wife and when it got to the part about wine and strong drink, she added "Vinegar".


http://ellenwhite.org/contra9.htm
Dennisrainwater
Registered user
Username: Dennisrainwater

Post Number: 110
Registered: 8-2000
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL!!! Can someone hand me a towel? I need to clean the coffee off my computer! ;-)
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven

Post Number: 182
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While I completely agree that the Bible does not forbid alcohol, but only forbids drunkeness, I am very glad there are non-SDA churches who serve grape juice instead of wine at communion. I've never tasted alcohol, have no desire to, and the smell is nauseating to me. If all non-SDA churches only served wine at communion, I probably wouldn't be participating.
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1401
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Provbers 31:4-0, "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or else they will drink and and forget what has been decreed, and will pervert the rights of all afflicated. Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to those to those in bitter distess, and remember their misery no more. Speak out for those who cannot speak, for the rights of the destitute. Speak out, judge righteousley, defend the rights of the poor and the needy." This is one of my favorite passages, at least in the OT. And, believing that God is the Supreme author of the Bible, all the Bible, I take these words for just what they say. I am courious sometimes though how a SDA would interpert this passage. As far as communion goes, in the churches I frequent the individual has the option of grape juice or wine.
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 959
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When it comes to the commandsments Jesus gave us to love God and to love our neighbors as ourselves, that tells me that if I drink and drive and hurt some one, that is not some thing God wants me to do. If I am at home and am not going anywhere, I can have a drink occasionally. I am not getting drunk and I am not driving after I have had a drink. That is how I apply what the Bible says about alcohol to myself. In Jesus day they did not have cars and probably walked everywhere. Of course a drunk person could fall down and get hurt and probably, if so disposed, could pick a fight.
Diana
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 295
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, yes, I know, I can't figure out what people do with that passage either, especially those who believe in tithing and even more especially SDAs! If they think tithing is for them, why don't they do it the way the Bible says to??? And also notice what the passage says about meat. :-) That is one of my favorite passages in the OT, hehe. :-)

BTW, did you all know that EGW actually said the EXACT WORDS that the Bible says that false prophets say?

Colossians 2:16-23 (NASB) says:


quote:

"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
18Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
[KJV: "Touch not; taste not; handle not;"]
22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence."




It says that people who have visions say "Touch not; taste not; handle not;" (KJV) Now look at what Ellen G. White says:


quote:

"Many things that are often made articles of diet are unfit for food; the taste for them is not natural, but has been cultivated. Stimulating food creates a desire for still stronger stimulants. Indigestible food throws the entire system out of order, and unnatural cravings and appetites are the result. 'Touch not, taste not, handle not,' is a motto that should be carried further than the mere use of spirituous liquors. True temperance teaches us to abstain entirely from that which is injurious, and to use healthful and nutritious articles judiciously." (Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 09-23-1884, paragraph 5.)

"The only safe course is to touch not, taste not, handle not, tea, coffee, wines, tobacco, opium, and alcoholic drinks." (Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 428, paragraph 1.)

"With the awful results of indulgence in intoxicating drink before us, how is it that any man or woman who claims to believe in the word of God, can venture to touch, taste, or handle wine or strong drink? Such a practice is certainly out of harmony with their professed faith. . . ." (Temperance, page 43, paragraph 3.)

"The Christian standard says, 'Touch not; taste not; handle not;' and the laws of our physical being repeat the solemn injunction with emphasis. It is the duty of every Christian minister to lay this truth plainly before his people, teaching it both by precept and example. . . ." (Temperance, page 164, paragraph 4.)




There you have it. Absolute proof that EGW is a false prophet. She says to "touch not, taste not, handle not" all alcohol, tea, coffee, and anything else she deems not "healthy"! Also notice that Colossians 2:23 says that these things "are of no value against fleshly indulgence." EGW says that things like not eating meat and spices is of MUCH value against fleshly indulgence!!! Once again completely opposite of what the Bible says!!!

Jeremy
Bartdanr
Registered user
Username: Bartdanr

Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 5:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jeremy,

Thanks so much for your post. I think that this is such a clear example of EGW's falsehood.

Really, when I think about it, I cringe that I did not investigate the SDA church more before becoming a member. I seriously doubt that anyone who is well-informed and has studied the Bible at any length could possibly convert to such a patently false cult. I think it gains converts only from those ignorant of the Bible, or ignorant of the true teachings of the SDA church. (I was the later).

I was coming off of a long period of doubt and unbelief when I encountered the SDA church, and I was looking for something to plug into. Well, I plugged into something--but it was not the Church that Jesus Christ founded; it was one that EGW, a false prophetess, founded.

It also upsets me that the SDA "Seminars" are deceptive to the highest degree. They deliberately hide their affiliation with the SDA church and try to suck people in with some orthodox Christianity for the first few weeks; then, after gaining your trust, they start giving their twisted gospel. My association with one of these seminars really started opening my eyes to the cultic nature of the SDA church.

In Christ,
Daniel
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd

Post Number: 321
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,
I live in a large SDA-mecca, Walla Walla, WA. It is well known in this community that SDAs go to church on Saturday and are vegetarians. Through my non-denominational Bible study (BSF), I have meet some wonderful, Christian friends. At first they are unbelieving of the SDA beliefs. They do not understand, of course, how anyone can believe such dribble that is not in the Bible. I have printed off several of the more blantant blasphemy that you share with us on the forum and have them in my Bible. I firmly believe God puts people in my life to share the truth of SDA "truths". All of your time and effort in sharing direct quotes with the stated references is very deeply appreciated.

THANK YOU! :-)
Carol_2
Registered user
Username: Carol_2

Post Number: 236
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Jeremy...I echo Dd.....your sharing of these quotes is very appreciated.
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 600
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, would you mind if I shared the quotes and your comments above with a few formers on my e-mail list (most of them don't read this board)?

Chris
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 297
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't mind at all Chris, go right ahead!

Jeremy
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1316
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, too--thank you, Jeremy! That last quote where Ellen specifically states the opposite of Colossians is amazing. Thanks for putting it up!

Colleen
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1410
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana, we a country people. One of my closest friends when she was a teenager got thrown into juvenle hall for drunk driving her horse through town. She appaently had that horse going every-witchway. The cop stopped her, took her to juvenile hall and had her dad come get the horse. She still gets ribbed about if from the oldtimers in town as well as friends and family.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration