| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1409 Registered: 11-2002 |
In Communist Russia were many people who never even heard the name, Jesus. I susspect this is also true in Communist China, Communist North Korea and some remote areas. Yet, the peoples have in their hearts a desire to live "a way that seemeth right". Please explain. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2004 |
Ok, here's my perspective on this. First of all I do believe that Christianity is the one, and only, true religion. Jews and Christians most certainly believe in the same God but Muslims do not. Mohammed forced all Middle Easterners to believe in one God, but that God was one of the many pagan Middle Eastern gods; it was not, and is not, the true God, the one and only, the I AM. Mohammed essetialy created the concept of Allah by taking his pagan god and giving that pagan god some of the attributes of the true God. Just found this site, so I can't vouch for it, but it seems to have some good info: http://www.bibleprobe.com/mohammed.htm Here's another good place for information on Islam: http://www.carm.org/islam.htm --------------------------------------- Now, that having been said, I must also say that I do not believe that the bible says "ONLY CHRISTIANS WILL BE SAVED!" What the bible does, is tell us about the true God and what God wants for His childern. The bible also gives Christians the promise that, if they accept Christ as their Savior, they will be saved. To some of us, it seems fair that no one else should be saved. To others of us, it seems fair that everyone else should also be saved. The truth is that the Bible does not tell us what God will do with people that did not hear His message. (Maybe this means that it's none of our business). We have no idea what God will do. We are not God's sense of fairness. We are not God's instrument of judgement. We have no claim over God. As Christians, we should hold on to God's promise and know that we are saved. We should also tell others about the true God and His promise of salvation. God's promise allows us, as Christians, to be completely assured of our salvation; but there is no contrasting promise that dooms all the rest of humanity. What God wants to do with the vast majority of the world's population that never heard of Him, is God's business, not ours. Anyway, that's my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. -Adrian | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 299 Registered: 10-2004 |
I disagree with the belief that the Jews have the same God. They deny Jesus, so how can they have the same God if they deny the Lord God Jesus Christ? The Bible clearly states: "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father" (1 John 2:23a KJV) Jesus Himself even directly addressed the Jews and what god they had: "Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of [your] father the devil," (John 8:41-44a KJV) Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1411 Registered: 11-2002 |
Adrian, you wrote i a more undrstandable way just what I was trying to convey. Jeremy, I agree. The Jews do ot have the same God as the Christians. Jesus said, "My father and I are one". Therefore, it is not the same. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2004 |
I'm sorry. I hate to argue on this forum. I did that when I first started posting here, but now I do to CARM for that purpose. I must say, however, that Jews do indeed have the same God as Christians. Jesus is another revelation of the same God. In fact, it is possible that, even in the Old Testament, it was Jesus that interacted with humans. Paul says that Moses was given the Law through a Mediator and seems to imply that Jesus was that Mediator. There is also the question of who appeared to Abraham, who appeared to Adam and Eve in the garden, etc. In my OPINION, Jesus is the part of God that interacts with humans in the physical world, while the HS is the part of God that interacts with humans spiritually. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS IS JUST MY OPINION. Now back to the Jews: Their problem is not that they have the wrong God, it's just that they refuse to acknowledge the full reality of God. They only acknowledge God in the way God presented Himself to them during OT times. It's really funny because the entire time God was telling them that he was planning to come to earth and die for humanity, yet when it happened, they were too blind to recognize Jesus. So again, the problem isn't which God the Jews pray to. The problem is that, although Jews pray to the right God, they refuse to acknowledge the fullness of God (Jesus, HS) and His plan of salvation. Despite this, I have to conclude that God still loves the Jews and listens to their prayers just as he did in the Old Testament times. If you want to say that Jews do not fully understand who God is, then I will completely agree with you. But if you say that Jews pray to a false God, than I cannot agree with you because you are denying the Bible. Anyway, this is probably just a misunderstanding of words, not of actual beliefs, but lets see what you all thinkÖ -Adrian | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2004 |
One other thing: We, as Christians, know God in a much fuller way than the Jews know God. However, God is infinite. He is much more than any of us can ever understand so we should not become boastful because we understand that Jesus and the HS are God. We still only know what God has chosen to reveal to us; and that, in itself, is truly amazing. The fact that God sacrificed part of Himself (the Son) in order to redeem His disobedient children, still astounds me. We truly are not worthy! Praise be to Jesus! | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 272 Registered: 5-2002 |
4drian, the phrase you used "part of God" caused me some concern. The modalistic view of God is that there is one God who appears in differing "modes" depending on the circumstance. God appears as the Father, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit - but it is a single personification entity. This is a heresy and I pray that is not what you are suggesting. God the father is distinctly God. Jesus the Son is distinctly God. God the Holy Spirit is distinctly God. Three persons who are each distinctly God, and the three together are one God. I believe that Scripture teaches salvation comes through the triune God I described above. While the Jews pray to the same God the Father who sent His only Son to die for the sins of the world, they do not reach Him because the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ, His Son. 4drian, keep up the good work on CARM! Sometimes it is a train wreck over there. I pray I have not offended anyone by this post. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 107 Registered: 8-2004 |
Thank you 4drian especially for the second part of your post #51. What you say there is what I wanted to bring up as well. The jews definitely worship the same God as we do, just refusing to recognise what he has revealed of himself after the time of the old testament. If they worshiped another God how could Jesus have come to them? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 300 Registered: 10-2004 |
4drian and Helovesme2, could you please address the texts I posted above, and explain how your view fits with those texts? Thanks. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1324 Registered: 12-2003 |
Here's the way I see it--I may not be seeing it exactly accurately, but this is how it seems: Originally, the Jews definitely worshiped the One True God. They were His chosen people, and HE revealed Himself to them. After Jesus came, they rejected God's revelation of Himself through Jesus. This rejection solidified their already-in-progress apostacy which led to their not recognizing Him. Because they rejected Jesus (and simultaneously God's Word about Himself), they came down on the side of idolatry: worshiping a god they created in their own minds instead of worshiping God as He revealed Himself. While they still can turn to God and repent for their arrogance (as we all can), for the moment they are in idolatry/apostacy unless they surrender to Jesus. When I think of their being in idolatry or apostacy, it helps me understand their condition a bit better than if I just say "they worship another god". Actually, the two are probaby equal--but they actually have knowledge of the true God available. They are just refusing to honor Him and are honoring their own rationale instead. In effect, they are worshiping "another god". Colleen | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 163 Registered: 9-2004 |
In my opinion, they recognize and believe in the God of Israel (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) because they do not (in general) represent themselves as being the people of any other "god". I am not going to go as far as to say that they "KNOW" the "God of Israel", as we do-- most do not.. The bible says that they mocked the Lord by putting a sign over Him saying "King of the Jews" because He said he came for Israel not for the nations. But their rejection of God in the flesh says that they don't know God, as in a personal relationship with Him -- which can only come through Jesus Christ. They do, however, PRAY to the one and only living God. But like someone said, "Does He hear those that rejected His son in the flesh?" Probably not. They must come to the Father in the name of the Son, whom God knows by looking into the hearts of men, who has really accepted and received the one in whom He is well pleased! Which I know plenty of Jewish believers and I tell you -- they are some sort of miracle. Think about it... I can't be positive to say that I would've accepted Jesus (if I were Jewish) saying He was the Son of God (except by faith) knowing that I had had my entire generational history recorded in the Torah and the Talmud (OT), the Books of the Prophets to teach me of the God of "my own people Israel". And raised to know who our God is. I bet I would probably have thought Jesus was someone crazy or something. {But then I imagine that's why He came with miracles and healings to prove to unbelievers) Yeah, it would've taken ALL that for me to believe that the Redeemer prophesied in Isaiah (among others) had really come (if I were Jewish). Glad they (for the most part) rejected Him because it was in the plan for us Gentiles! Tracey | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 108 Registered: 8-2004 |
Jeremy, My thought was that the verse (paraphrased) "in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men" probably applies to the jews, in the sense that false perceptions of God lead to false worship of God, rather than the 'proper' worship of a false god. To say that the jews are now worshiping a false god, would seem to me a bit like the SDA reasoning that, when Jesus moved to the most holy place in heaven, those praying to him not understanding the move were actually now praying to Satan. helovesme2 | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 165 Registered: 9-2004 |
I shouldn't have included the Talmud, sorry! the Talmud is an expounded teaching on the 613 laws God commanded. (which became so legalistic in practice that everyone missed the point when Jesus came) | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2004 |
That's exaclty the way I see it helovesme2. Jeremy, The way I read the verses you posted above, is that Jesus was telling the Jews that they were rejecting God. Here's the disctintion: The Jews were not worshiping the wrong God but the problem was that they were worshiping God falsely. They rejected God and did not worship Him as He commanded them to. Anyway, that's my take on those verses. -Free | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2004 |
Oops, I messed up that last post. I meant to sign my name, Adrian, and then to address Freeatlast. Anyway, here's the answer to your question Free; I didn't exactly know what you meant by modalism so I looked it up: Definition: Think of a being that can "morphe", "shape shifter" from one form into another. There is only one being at any one time. Modalism views God as a being that has three different forms. Sometimes God exists in the "form" the "Father", sometimes the "Son", sometime the "Holy Spirit", BUT NEVER ALL THREE AT THE SAME TIME. The essential difference between Modalism and the Biblical trinity, is that in Modalism, the three members of the Godhood never exist at the same time and in Trinity, they always co-exist at the same time. I can definitely say that I DO NOT believe in modalism. I believe in a triune Godhead. However, I think that some people view of the trinity is really just a belief in three different Gods. I was simply trying (and perhaps not doing a good job of it) to describe God as three "parts" so that I can also say that God is one. This is always a difficult subject to discuss, and it is easy to go too far in either direction. Hope this helps, Adrian | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 274 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks, Adrian! Glad to hear that your belief is in line with Scripture in this regard. See ya over on CARM... | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2004 |
Gone on mini-trip - back now - thanks for the responses... First of all, Colleen (and others)...I am a H.S. Business/Marketing Teacher, DECA Advisor and Knowledge Bowl Coach...all are nice positions, but I am an Athletic Director wannabe...no more grading papers, class discipline problems, and I get paid more moola...we'll see...God is in control of that one. Chris, it is late (now) but I will attempt to "look up" some facts for you. Obviously, any LLU Health Professor could direct us to several websites (research) outlining the advantages of a non-animal non-flesh-eating diet. Riddle me this: I am familiar with the Leviticus and Deut. passages and even teh NT verses alluding to "meat being ok for consumption." But, the "original diet" for Adam and Eve (and pre-flood most agree) was void of eating animals. In fact, does it not seem logical that, in the New Jerusalem, we will (most likely) be eating (if we even need to eat at all!?!?) anything but animals?? Why would there be killing for consumption?? For that matter, why will there be golf, or video games, or the need to take a nice summer snooze??? Just throwin' some conversational tid-bits out there! Finally, those that have gone onto the other thread I began a few weeks back (Standing on Grey Ground) and responded to the RemnantofGod.org website - WOW - I really thought some would find it intriguing, at least in a positive way...do many of you really think this is "off the deep end??" (I say this in light of recent discussions pertaining to non-Christians, other denominations worshipping Our God - maybe The Father is up in Heaven right now just shakin' His head at all of our "worries"...who knows... Eric | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 604 Registered: 7-2003  |
Eric, you said: "It is a fact that abstaining from eating animals (especially, beef and pork) is so much better for you (healthwise)in the long run. This is not SDA research this is just plain the way it is." If this is a "fact", then as a health professional I would like to see ***peer reviewed*** research demonstrating that a vegetarian diet is superior to a well-balanced diet including a moderate amount of animal proteins. I have no doubt that you can find websites espousing the benefits of vegetarianism. I have no doubt that you can find studies showing that vegtarianism is healthier than an unbalanced diet based on excessive amounts of meat. What I am asking is: "Are there ***peer reviewed*** reserach articles that show that vegetarianism is superior to a well-balanced diet including a moderate amount of animal proteins?" If so I would certainly like to review the research. If not, then the hypothesis that abstaining from eating animals is much better for us in the long run does not rise to the level of "fact". It remains a hypothesis. Chris | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1431 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have never in my lfe done a scientific research project and I most likly never will. However, I do read the opituraries. It seems to me that allowed to live out a natural life span most people die in the same general age group. Cut out the obivious really bad things to put into ones body such as smoking, alcoholism, assorted various illegial substances, assorted legal substances misused, and get plenty of wholesome foods and drinks, sunshine and rest and exercise and most everyone wheather they eat meat or abstain from meat will pretty much die in the same general age groups with an assortment of non-life-threatening aches and pains. It's just part of life. So I eat what I want (in moderation) and I enjoy my rum (again in moderation) and when I leave this world I won't be any much older or younger than most others. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1332 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have to agree with Chris, Eric--I need to see peer reveiwed research before the vegetarian claim is believable. I remember (I know I've mentioned this before) that I was n a conversation a few years ago in which the subject of the Adventist health study/ research came up. The results show that Adventists live on the average about 7 years longer than the rest of the public. (Mormons, I might add, also have this longevity advantage, and they're not vegetarians.) A former SDA doctor who was a department head at Loma Linda for many years spoke up and said that Christians who do not smoke or drink and who eat more white meat as opposed to fattier red meats have the same life expectancy as Adventists. The Adventist "advantage" is the result of comparing Adventists with the general public who often smoke and drink. Again, statistics can be made to say almost anything we wish to say. In the case of the Adventist health study, their statistics seem to support vegetariansm--but their comparison is with the general public who have no concersn re: healthful living at all. They are not comparing themselves to people who abstain from tobacco/alchohol and who choose their meats and diets in general wisely. Colleen |
