| Author |
Message |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 613
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 9:17 pm: |     |
Bb, the use of the term "replacement theology" is really just a debating tactic. It's a way of putting down and mischaracterizing anyone who is not a dispensationalist by labeling them. Those who are accused of ascribing to "replacement theology" would almost never accept that term. Most in the non-dispensational camp would say that true-Israel is what it has always been, a collection of all those who believe. In the OT we have examples of many genitles that came to belief and joined Israel. In the NT, we see that many more gentiles are grafted into the true Isreal. This is not "replacement theology". It's an attempt to take seriously what the NT writers have to say about who Irael really is and who are truly children of Abraham through faith.
CriV |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 313
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 9:27 pm: | |
Diana, yes that is a very good and applicable passage!
"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospelñwhich is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:6-9 NIV.)
Jeremy |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 225
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 3:55 am: | |
When I was Adventist, I remember how careful we were to not be misled by anyone who functioned from an ìexperienceî or showed the slightest bit of emotions. It was almost like the Catholic church in that the denomination itself held the truth and you were not to deviate from it. You spent your entire life learning to prooftext what youíd been told and even when you read contradictory passages, you figured out a way to talk around themósort of. Because Adventism just isnít doable in your own strength, there has been a lot of splintering in the ranks. Some evangelicals are learning and promoting the gospel. Cultural Adventists arenít about to release a tithe to the church. There has been fear in leadership ranks that they were losing control from what Iíve learned from some sources.
Along comes Soo, a nun from another country who doesnít speak English when she originally has supernatural things starting to happen to her. This angel visitation to Soo is perfect. It seems there are too many people who have met her when she didnít know English to have called her a phony. So this is a perfect ruse for Satan. This can add to the ability of the top echelon to say to the rebellious childrenóìSee, we were right and you are wrong about looking into this evangelical stuff. We need to get back to the roots of Adventism.î
Note that one of the books she was told to translate is the Great Controversy. Thatís going to renew interest in being distinctive, in being the remnant, Sunday laws and coming persecution. Unless somehow this woman is exposed as having been put up to all of this by Adventists, it seems to me itís a huge victory for Satan who is trying to pull US SDAs back into the fold. If leadership gets behind this, which it seems they are, then it can serve to reunite a splintering denomination here in the US and pull them deeper into deception, legalism and perfectionism.
We need to be praying. If this gets well known and accepted, then it could be a way to get people to start studying and finding Jesus. Kind of like the days of Desmond Ford. It will be interesting to see what all develops. Plus the GC in St Louis is coming upÖ..hmmmmÖ..wonder if anything will be said there?
Praise GodÖ
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Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 65
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 7:59 am: | |
Chris, that makes sense! Jesus did begin with the Jews but we are now His children whether we are Jews or not. So does this mean that it is not relevant that they are back in their own country? Or that they are trying to build a temple? Will God still fulfill promises to them specifically? |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 615
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 10:28 am: | |
Bb, the most honest answer I can give you is, "I don't know". I wish I could say something more profound, but I am extremely hesitant to be dogmatic on any of this. Here are a few musings:
1. There is a reasonable argument to made for saying that the land (particularly it's borders and size) related promises that God made to Israel were fulfilled during the reign of Solomon. In other words, I don't know that we have to look for a war beteen the modern Israeli state and the Arabs in order to confirm that God fulfilled his promise to give them a land with certain borders. Nor do we necessarily need to push this into the millenium.
2. The promises made to Israel were conditional. God told them many times that if they rejected Him, then He would drive them from the land. By and large the majority of those living in the modern Israeli state are still in rebellion because they reject the Messiah. Perhaps the modern Iraeli state was created by divine fiat, and perhaps it is primarily a human creation.
3. I don't get to excitable about all the talk of building a new temple. A lot of the talk you see on websites is wild rumor not based in fact. It's hard to imaging this ever happening without starting WWWIII because they would have to bull doze the Dome of the Rock to do this. Could this happen? If that's truly in God's plan, sure it could. But I can't see why God would want to rebuild the temple when Jesus fulfilled all the temple stood for and God rent the curtain at his death. We are now the temple of God's Spirit so rebuilding a physical temple to continue the sacrificial system seems blasphamous to me.
4. In my mind, I think there is a strong argument to be made from the book of Romans for a large influx of Christ believing Jews being grafted back into the true Israel before the end. I don't think we need to see the Jews as a completely seperate entity in God's plans to see the fulfillment of this.
5. As far as promise fulfillment goes, I tend to think that nearly every promise in the OT was fulfilled in Christ. Christ didn't setup the earthly Kingdom that people were looking for, but he did setup a very real spiritual kingdom and we certainly see the NT writers speak of the fulfillment of several OT promises in a spiritual way.
Who knows? I sure don't, just a few thoughts. I trust God to do all this in His own way and His own time and maybe someday it will all be clear to us. In the meantime, I pray that eschatology will cease being a devisive issue among believers.
CriV |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 108
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 10:53 am: | |
I'm definitely not highly educated in these things, but I find it interesting that the temple described in Ezekiel has never been built upon this earth, but presently the Jews in Isreal are designing just such a temple, using the dimensions given by Ezekiel. When EGW was "prophecying" the Jews were in dispersion, and in her mind would never by brought together cohesively again. Surprise, Ellen, they are together now, and in their homeland. We need to remember that EGW didn't have all of her ducks in a row. She borrowed a little from here, and a little from there, and argued with demons in the dead of the night (at least she did when she wasn't talking to her dead husband).
We, thereafter, had our own unique experiences with the denomination that she and her cronies designed. History has really passed the SDA denomination by. They are not aware of it yet, but that doesn't change the facts. God made some everlasting promises to the Isrealites and to the Sons of David, meant for them only. The promises made to the Church are pretty profound as well, and I'm more than willing to take hold of those promises. I still believe we will see some wonderful things that show that God still loves, profoundly loves, the Jewish people. As I've made it clear to my children, I think that we as a nation and a people need to pay close attention to the promise made by God to His people Isreal. "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." It is no accident that Great Britain and the U.S. are allies of Isreal, and I pray that it will always be that way!
Give me Jesus
Belva |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 41
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 11:30 am: | |
There are so many though. Danny Shelton claims that God speaks to us through him with inspired thought, dreams, and visions. He claims to know people's secret lives because God shows him. He is trully intuitive, and can figure lots of things out, but he is just gifted in that way. He uses this to make people do things because they believe that it is God, not Danny. He gets people to tell him their darkest secrets in confidence, and then blackmails them into silence when they lose their faith in him. Thousands of people think he is our "lastday prophet" including many of his closest employees.
So we have Soo, Danny, some guy who claims to have figured out the end of the world through biblical astronomy... we have Jan Marcussen, all claiming inspiration by God, and all proclaiming God's true final message. You know, lots of these people carry on about the Jesuit infiltrators trying to tear up God's Church when they are doing a much better job of driving people away from Jesus than any group of Jesuits could ever hope to. |
Lindylou
Registered user
Username: Lindylou
Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 12:04 pm: | |
Hi Derrell, I am curious as to where you get your information on Danny Shelton. I have never heard that about him before. Not that I pay him much attention. But if that is true - there are a few folks that I would like to share that with and I know they would reply, "Where's the proof?" So if you have any "evidence" would you mind sharing? Thanks.
Belvalew, I liked your thoughts regarding the Jewish nation. I am one of those curious ones - who finds it a bit intriguing to ponder the role of Israel in the last days. Paul seems to infer in Romans that there is still something special about the Jews as a people. I think that one of the errors of SDA thinking is that we are all just spiritual Jews. That line of thought can lead to salvation by works - and I'm seeing it lead some to conclude that the Sabbath and Jewish festivals are still relevant today.
At the same time, I would be the first to say, I have no clue! It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. The thing I DO know is that it will be like nothing we could ever expect. And I can almost guarantee that SDA's will be the most shocked of all because it all didn't come down as their "prophet" predicted.
Have a great afternoon all! Thanks for the continuing brain stimulation!  |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 12:45 pm: | |
Could someone please tell me what the term "thught inspiration" means? I thought the entire Bible was written by thought inspiration. God put the truth into the writers thoughts and they put it in written form so through the ages we could have The Word of God. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 619
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 1:20 pm: | |
Susan, the idea of "thought inspiration" is that God inspired authors to write about a particular topic. That is where the inspiration ended. The writers then took that idea and put it words that may or may not completely accurately portray the original thought that God gave them.
In other words, there may be errors in the original autographs of the Bible because all human processes involve errors. Only the thought was inspired, not the writing of the thought, therefore the writing must have errors.
This is a very convenient way to defend prophets like EGW. You can say things like, "Well she was just confused about the vision she saw so she may have gotten it a little wrong, but she's no less accurate than the fallible authors of the Bible".
Conservative Evangelical Christianity believes that the inspiration process extended to not only the thoughts contained in scripture, but to the actual words of scripture used to express those thoughts. Each book of the Bible reflects the personality, writing style, and time period of the human author, but it also perfectly expresses the words of God. In this view of inspiration the Bible is a product of both God and humans, but without error because of the superitending of the Holy Spirit.
This latter view is sometimes referred to as "plenary inspiration" or "verbal inspiration". In other words, you can trust the actual words of the Bible and not just the broad thoughts. You don't need to weed through which parts are divine and which parts are human, because it's all inspired.
Hope this helps.
Chris
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Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 42
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 3:08 pm: | |
Lindylou, is there some way to communicate info to you other than on a public forum? |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1449
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 3:10 pm: | |
Chis, thanks for the explanitation. Accordig to the difination you gave I certanly am not prone to fall for that thougt inspiration theory. I am in agreement with the Evangelical Christians on this one. And, I hold my membership at te Evangelical Lutheran so I guess I'm very acclamated. Have any of you read this weeks issue of Time Magazine? The feature article is about Evangelical Christians. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1351
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 6:22 pm: | |
Derrell and Lindylou, you could both send me your email addresses to proclamation@gmail.com, and I can put you in touch with each other.
Oh, my goodness, Derrell--I didn't realize Danny's claims went that far!
I do think there is yet to be some significance for Israel, although I'm not sure I see it being the "shape" Dispensationalists give it. But when Paul says God's promises are irrevocable, it seems to me that while the Israel of God is all those who put their faith in Christ, God is still going to deal with the Jews. After all, Paul says, "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Romans 11:28-29). And Paul also says "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in" (Rom 11:25b).
How exciting it all is!
Colleen |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1450
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 8:28 pm: | |
My moms Review came several days ago.I was looking through it this evening. In one article it says nearly all the new converts to Adventism in the United States are first generation immagrants. I believe that would be true. I also am wondering how the truth of SDA'ism can be brought to these new immagarnts so they can be led to a more Christ centered grace based Christian fellowship. Apparently the SDA's are sure hitting up the immagrant neighbrhoods. How can this be dealt with? I think it may be that when people start a new life in a new country they will be very suspectiable to embraseing a new religion. |
Lindylou
Registered user
Username: Lindylou
Post Number: 13
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 8:44 pm: | |
Derrell, I'll forward my email address to Colleen.
Susan_2, I have used the term "thought messages" to refer to something that happened to people I knew back in the late 80's. A distant relative began getting "messages" from God as she was praying and studying the Bible. She wrote them down - they took the form of a letter - "My dear child...." She told us that these were not audible messages but rather ones that came to her mind in a deliberate manner. She started distributing them to her family and it led to some crazy stuff. (There were about 5 other people in different parts of the country who started getting these so called "thought messages".) Eventually, individuals started asking for a personal message from God - and they were obliged. It lead people into deliverance ministry and in one case in S.Oregon - it lead to murder. (There's a book about that floating around somewhere.)
So, it is that experience that I was referring to when I used those words on this site. |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 229
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 10:55 am: | |
Susan, I tried to access the Review article about converts online but can't find it. Do you suppose you could post a pertinent amount as well as the title and author?
If SDAs have statistics to back this up, I believe it is an indication of the power of the internet and prayers and education from ones like us. First generation immigrants aren't as likely to research online that much.
In the area where I live, I believe it's the Hispanic Adventist churches that are growing, especially ones preaching in Spanish because many of the members don't speak English. In this area, it's not a well-educated Hispanic population, but more the uneducated blue collar worker. For whatever reason, these churches as well as churches with a strong Caribbean Islands membership seem to be much more likely to be steeped in a legalistic type of Adventism.
We need to pray in formers from these cultures who can really reach them for Jesus!
Praise God... |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1002
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:05 am: | |
I agree that we do need to pray for these people. That is why when I write a reminder of our prayer sessions, I usually put "from the GC down to the smallest, most insignificant church".
Insignificant is meant in the eyes of the SDA church. I also remind people to pray for those who are coming in contact with SDAs.
Our God is an awesome God and He will prevail.
Diana |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1453
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:07 am: | |
My little grandchild attends a small SDA school in which the majority of the children are Spanish as a first language. Most the families are SDA converts from Catholic. I have heard the conference would like to close the school because they're loosing too much money on it, the kids come from poor families so I guess it's a highly subsidised school. But, the parents and kids are so devistated when the issue of closing th school comes up that the confereve leaves it open. As well they should too because it's a little SDA school right in the heart of a lot of gang actvity and as goofy as the SDA's can be my opinion is that the kids are sure a lot better off and more save at the little SDA school. One teacher switched to a different SDA school only around 50 miles from the school my grandchild attends. When I asked this teacher why she was changing schools she told me because the other school pays $10,000 more per year for exactly the same amount of work. And, this is in the very same conferenc, only about 50 miles down the freeway. I will try to get that article later and let you know the issue, the author and the page number. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1456
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 9:31 pm: | |
Dear Praisegod, The article is in the Janurary 2005 North Americam Division edition of the Review. The front cover says in real big letters, "Five Certanities for 2005". |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 179
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 7:30 am: | |
Since this thread discussed "Soo" I'd ask this here.
I just received an email from my grandfather who is a retired SDA pastor and missionary. This particular line of my family served 3 generations in Africa and was greatly involved in the Solusi mission inception as well as many other missions through south and central Africa. I state this because this is something that my family is very proud of and though i know my parents communicate and grieve with them about my rejection of the "true" church, there has been no point yet of communication regarding it between my grandparents and I directly. Until now... I'm hesitant to post the email because it's very long and is full of the usual SDA "proofs", mainly it is a composition of stories of people in missions (the Soo story is included) that had visions directing them to the Adventist church or to the Sabbath truth. There are 5 stories all together.
Happily, this didn't cause me the moment of terror that I've become accustomed to that happens when i'm flashed with old SDA thoughts...until I stop and think again about them and realize it's just trash. The Soo story just seems ridiculous to me. This particular version is full of details that really push it beyond reliable. And the other stories are the regular mission type stories that I'm so accustomed to from my childhood days and listening to the mission stories.
My point is that i'm hoping somebody will have a little insight in addressing this type of "proof" with Adventist family. I plan on using the Gal 1:8 verse regarding even the angels from Heaven... However, this line from one of the stories written by my grandfather:
"This story of how God Himself converted Sekhuba should prove in all wavering and doubting Adventists that the movement is of God, the only church which He recognizes as His own, the worldwide movement which truly represents the government of Heaven in earth. The Lord will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness."
Well, let's just say that I'm not sure any "It is written"'s will mean much. The application will be that text that Greg posted from EGW from SM "We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories."
I've been spitefully thinking I could email a page full of the stories from this forum. About how God has lead so many people away from Adventism But no, that's the mortal me talking. And you know, it's just helped to type all this out. I think I'm just going to write the gospel. Thanks for letting me vent this, and feel free to offer any insights you might have from your own experiences. But for now, I'm just going to do what's on my heart and talk about Jesus.
BTW: Plain Patti on the Carm site posted a string of threads last week that had to be one of the most beautiful tellings of the Gospel ever. Here's the link if anyone's interested. And it runs for 5 or so posts. As always, good work to everyone there on on R/S. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 744
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 8:41 am: | |
Esther, I suspect you are correct is saying that no statement of "it is written" will suffice. In my experience with our family, when scripture fails to support their view, then these experiential ancedotes trump everything else.
I once had a conversation with my F-I-L about Sabbath observance. I presented scripture showing that Sabbath was a shadow fulfilled in the reality of Christ. Rather dealing with the scripture, my FIL resorted to saying "Well all I know is too many people have prayed not to have to work on the Sabbath and their prayers have been answered". As far as he was concerned that was the end of the story. No further discussion was necessary because this ancedotal evidence trumped anything the scripture might seem to say. Sigh..... It's a real battle.
May God give you the words to speak and use them for His glory!
Chris |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 182
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 9:44 am: | |
I know! I've gotten similar stuff. And when you try to reason with them about all the non-sda peoples prayers that are answered or that are martyred for Christ and the same principle doesn't apply suddenly. Go figure ? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1647
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 11:39 pm: | |
Esther, I agree that the gospel is the best thing you can say to him. You and Chris point out such a universal Adventist "proof"--the anecdotal evidence which "proves" Adventism is true. If the Bible contradicts Adventism, the personal stories will prove it.
Sigh again.
Colleen |
Blacksheep
Registered user
Username: Blacksheep
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 6:34 pm: | |
Removed by moderator at the request of Blacksheep.
(Message edited by admin on March 31, 2005) |
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