| Author | Message | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2004 |
HELP! My wife and I have begun to share with my parents that we no longer believe some of the core Adventist doctrines, particularly as they relate to salvation by faith. Despite the HUGE body of texts that demonstrate that salvation is by faith alone, my family singled out James 2 and asked us to explain it. In part, it reads as follows: "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? . . . . Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. . . . Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, ěAbraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,î and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. . . . As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead" (James 2:14-25, NIV). On its face, this text appears to support the Adventist position that salvation = faith + works. I noticed that there is an article on the FAF site written by Bruce Heinrich on this text. Mr. Heinrich explains that, in the context of James 2, it is Jesus who is doing the works, not us. However, the context of James 2 doesn't seem to support this argument. The text indicates that Abraham and Rahab were justified by their OWN works, not by Jesus' works. I'm certain there is context for this text that I haven't considered. Have any of you grappled with this text before? How were you able to reconcile it with new covenant theology? I would really appreciate your help. tdf | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 114 Registered: 8-2004 |
And what did Abraham do? He "Believed God" and acted on that belief. This is not the same as 'works' saving you. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1448 Registered: 11-2002 |
Our priest gave a sermon on that passage recently. When we are under grace we do good works because of our gratefullness and love for Jesus, not that we are doing the good works to gain favor with God, kind of a point system to earn our way to heaven. Good works are the natural outpouring of faith. An example of this is a lot of the charities are Christian based. These Christian charities are very blessed by God, that is evidant. A lot of the orphanages and other things are Christian based. It's the natural response to wanting to please God for all He has given us. It is honoring the two great commandments; love God with all your heart and love your fellow man. You could give your family Mother Teresa as an example of this. Just courious but does the SDA's then have Dorcus and ADRA to earn their way to heaven or do they have Dorcus and ADRA as a result of being saved and under grace? Big difference. If it's the first way I mentioned then I doubt very much if there will be great blessings from our Almighty on these charatable programs. | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2005 |
Hi Tdf, I think the key might be in the word, "Justification". The dictionary definition is: "fact or circumstance that gives a good reason for." I see this as saying that our works give good evidence for our faith in God. But they have nothing to do with our salvation. And what are those works? That text isn't saying that they are the ten commandments.(There are many texts to show that this work is loving God with all our heart, mind and soul and our neighbor as ourself.)Too often this text is used to put the cart before the horse. Don't you think James is just saying that if there is no evidence of a changed heart - that perhaps it isn't really changed?! Some people then jump to the conclusion that they have a right to make judgements about what those works SHOULD look like in others. A very dangerous thing to do. I think it is taking a giant leap to make this text say that our faith and works save us. Saying that works is the evidence of our faith is so much different from saying works are our salvation. Anyway, that's just a thought. Best wishes as you continue the dialogue with your family. It is never easy. Linda | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 329 Registered: 7-2004 |
TDF, Faith is my response to what God has said in His Word...faith is a way of life. You and your wife are following God's Word by faith. And by following His leading, your "works" (or belief) are the "deeds" that James is talking about. Hebrews 11 is one beautiful story after another of the "deeds" of faith. Hebrews 12 is the follow up of how to live by faith. Verse 15 says, "see to it that no one comes short of the grace of God..." To me, coming short of the grace of God is legalism. Legalism seperates us from Christ (Gal. 5:4). Faith without total belief in God's grace and His grace alone is to have "faith without deeds." I hope I am making sense in my rush to get to an appointment. I am praying that you will feel God's grace and peace as you follow His Word. GIVE ME JESUS!! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 992 Registered: 3-2004  |
Tdf, In Phil 2:12 & 13 "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work our your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Eph 2:8-11 "for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." These verses tell me that good works are done, but not to boast about, but because God gave them to us to do when we accept Jesus Christ. Because we love God we do the works, but not to win points with God to work our way into heaven. Hope this helps. I will pray for you and have put you on my prayer list. God is awesome and will give you the words to say to your parents. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 317 Registered: 10-2004  |
Tdf, I think, as Lindylou said, that the word "justified" may be the key to that passage. I think that the word "justified" is perhaps not being used in the sense of "being saved" in that passage. I think it may be being used to say, "see, they are justified (shown to be saved persons) by their works." Jeremy | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 122 Registered: 5-2004 |
Tdf, This is the exact text that my family has used on us. Look specifically at the context. James is writing about those who are showing partiality because some have money. And he uses the examples from the law to show that if you don't have LOVE, you are breaking the whole law. I believe our faith should show fruits. Good "works" however, don't necessarily mean "keeping the 10 c's" as SDA's like to argue. He goes on to say, "so speak and so act as those being judged by the law of liberty". Vs 14-17 is specific to those who are claiming their faith will save them, and then not showing love to their fellow man. The belief we have in Christ as the author and finisher of our faith should result in a changed heart. We should also remember that God works in us the changes He requires. I am praying for you. It's hard to keep your spirits up when confronted by the family...especial when in the SDA tradition they ignore the content of the entire NT for very specific verses that they can use to back themselves up. | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 124 Registered: 7-2004 |
Tdf, Faith without works is dead. Meaning in order for your faith to be funcional it must be followed by action. That is why when the Bible says "confess with your mouth and believe in your heart." Faith and belief are similar words in meaning. By confessing that Christ is your Lord and Savior and you are apart from the Law, you are confessing with you mouth. But like Paul says, "if you are bound by Law you are bound to its entirety, having no purpose for Christ (paraphrase)." So SDA have completed the first part, but not the second. The Bible says confess and believe. You confess vocally. But believing means ACTING ON THAT CONFESSION. So if you believe or have faith that Christ delivered us from sin. (the Bible says that the law defines sin) So if Christ delivered from sin, then theoretically he also delivered us from the Law. By confessing that he delivered us the right action would be to live without a yoke through Christ. But by still living by Law we negate the reason that Christ came by action. It is like a child. If you tell them to not climb a tree becasue they will fall, then they SAY, yes I understand. Then they go out and climb, then fall. Did their action support their confession? Are you going to want to hear them say that they believed in what you told them? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1348 Registered: 12-2003  |
Tdf, I agree with all the excellent points above. The text in James 2:22 says that Abraham's faith and actions were working together, and his "faith was made complete by what he did." Verse 23 goes on to say that Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. In this text alone it clearly says Abraham's belief (in God's promises) is what God counted as his righteousness. That means that his belief is what actually saved him. His works were the "proof", if you will, that he was saved. Romans 4:2 says this, "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutóbut not before God. What does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness'." Clay Peck has a wonderful motto (I hope I can remember it exactly--at least this is close!): "We're working FROM victory instead of TOWARD victory." In other words, being saved happens first. We believe God's promises and place our trust in Jesus' sacrifice, and we are saved. Now the Holy Spirit brings about the works that God prepared in advance for us to do (Eph. 2:10, as Diana quoted above). Back to James. If Abraham had not been willing to sacrifice Isaac, if he had not "performed" the "work" of carrying out that command, we would know that he was not already saved. His obedience was not part of his "salvation". It was an act of faith in the God who had already made Abraham His own. Adventists use this text to "prove" that if we love God, we'll keep the Sabbath. But that argument is a fallacy. First, the Bible is full of texts showing that Abraham's salvation was by his belief in God. In fact, he was saved before his circumcision. He believed in God, and the signs of belonging followed the belief. Second, James as well as Paul are saying, in effect, that anyone can call themselves saved, but if there is no "fruit", something is wrong. Tacking works onto a claim to be saved does not equal salvation. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Gal 5:22-23). If these are lacking, the "works" a person does are just that--works. A personn who is not born again, born of the Spirit, cannot display the fruit of the spirit. No amount of "good works" can prove otherwise. Without the fruit of the Spirit, a person may be trying to "show his faith by his works" (ie keeping the Sabbath as proof that one has "faith"), but that person is putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. James is talking about works being an inevitable part of being saved and being true to the "law of liberty," as Esther pointed out. Adventists use James 2:22 as an out-of-context proof-text to force the Bible to say that our works are part of our being saved. But Adventists mean Sabbath-keeping when they use this text, and Sabbath-keeping is found NOWHERE in the New Covenant as any type of sign that we are saved. Resting in JEsus is, but not keeping a commandment. The problem with the Adventist argument is that it is trying to interpret James 2:22 without any context. It assumes a definition (the "work" of Sabbath is the work that must accompany faith) that the rest of the New Testament does not support. It's just wrong on many levels! Praying for you, Tdf! Colleen | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks for your comments. My wife and I are deeply grounded in the belief that salvation is by faith alone and that works are the by-product (not the requirement) of genuine salvation. Your comments helped me put James 2 into context. I don't think that we will go much further at this point with trying to argue the point with my parents. They are clearly not up to discussing the subject with an open mind. We've tried to be respectful, to tell them where we're coming from and now we will leave it to them to process the fact that we no longer consider ourselves SDA. Meanwhile, we have other exciting things to focus on--a new church family, peace that comes from finally receiving assurance of salvation, and getting busy with the great commission. Because my parents are a variable over which we have no control, we're learning how to place them in God's hands. Thanks again for your insight! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1354 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tdf, it's just exciting to me to hear how you and your wife are growing and moving in your confidence in Jesus. What a wonderful thing that you have a new church family, you know you are saved, and you have work that God has prepared for you to do! It's not easy to put one's parents into God's hands without trying to hang on, but I'm thrilled that He's helping you both to do that. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 173 Registered: 9-2004 |
Praise God for your new found freedom in Christ Jesus, TDF. I am soo happy for you and your wife. Another point to add is in Romans, it says that Abraham didn't even have the law <but his faith was counted to him as righteousness> I have gone this route with "C" and his answer is that you just interpret James differently. (Please! the whole world interprets it differently from him) : ) Tracey | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 67 Registered: 7-2004 |
How do we deal with the fact that SDA's (many of them) say that "good works are the result of faith in Jesus and if we love Jesus we will obey Him, (which they use to justify the keeping of the 4th commandment) Because I believe good works result from faith in Jesus too. But they use that to explain their "law keeping". It's funny how James and Paul seem to be saying two different things, and how do we reconcile this? | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 68 Registered: 7-2004 |
Actually I was re-reading some of the posts and you did have answers to this...I guess it is just one of the things that I have always struggled with. I'm not trying to be repetative. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 999 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tdf, All you can do now is leave your parents in God's wonderful hands. You have planted the seed. God will see that it is watered and that it grows. They are on my prayer list. I am always surprised at how awesome God is. Diana | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 280 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bb, you said "But they (SDA's) use that to explain their "law keeping". Seventh-day Adventists do not keep the law. They just SAY they do. I'm not disagreeing with what you said, in fact I totally agree. I'm just using your post to drive home the point that nobody keeps the law, even those who hypocritically claim that they do. So much for the remnant church who keep all the commandments! First of all, they misinterpreted Revelation 14:12. Second of all, even if they did interpret it right, they don't keep the commandments anyway! Perhaps they should consider rewording Revelation 14:12 in the next edition of the Clear Word Bible to read: "Here are those who try real hard but still break the commandments of God and then use their faith in Jesus as an excuse to rationalize away their breaking of the 10 Commandments." | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 323 Registered: 10-2004 |
The SDA church cannot possibly even be the [misinterpreted] "remnant church which keeps the 10 commandments" when they MURDER babies and break the 6th commandment!! They seem to think 10 Commandments = 4th Commandment. But of course they don't even keep the sabbath--they can't keep it perfectly. And in order to even be able to keep it correctly they would first of all have to become a JEW living BEFORE Christ. Kinda hard to do without time travel. Jeremy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 707 Registered: 7-2003  |
My fascination with the focus on this text without context is that they ignore the rest of the teachings of scripture...they use one text to impeach the validity of another text rather than taking all texts in context. IF you consider the whole of the New Testament teaching about salvation, and encounter this text, you have to say "it can't mean what it sounds like it says because it goes against the rest of NT teaching." So, you have to pull the magnifying glass out to realize that scripture does not contradict itself. You can say that about any text where a pinlight is shown on one passage to the exclusion of another. The text has to be examined in terms of its immediate context, the book, and then the NT. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 281 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well said, Melissa. The Investigative Judgement doctrine is a classic example of this. They take one obscure text, grossly misinterpret it, and use it to override and overrule all the NT texts assuring the believer that he/she will NOT come into judgement! | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 118 Registered: 7-2004 |
Freeatlast, you are soooo right! A lot of sda's just use "lip service" to say they keep the law. When I was growing up in the sda church, no one "kept" the sabbath even though we were all "adventist". We would "sneak" to the movies, "sneak" to restaurants, "sneak" and turn the t.v. on before sunset on Saturday, etc., etc. And, even if we didn't actually do it, we were thinking about it and "rushing" sunset (on Saturday) so we can get the sabbath over and get on with our lives. In those days it just made us feel good to "say" we were Adventists. --Valerie | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2002 |
I know this thread is a little old, but I thought I'd add an insight that whacked me across the head one day... The book of James is a favorite for legalists because it seems to support their focus on law. However, ask Jesus to see it through His eyes and soon the book will begin bursting at the seams with the Gospel for you! Jesus told us to abide in His love, to "remain" in it, and James is saying the same thing -- to live a life of love and not find yourself counted among the hypocrites. The important thing to see is that James is not calling people to obey all of the law (he tells them not to show favoritism, but does not cite a passage of the law). He talks about keeping the royal law (the law of the King---Jesus!) and then quotes "love your neighbor" (not one of the 10 commandments). Then he speaks of the law that gives freedom, the law of liberty, or liberty's law. Clearly this is the law of the Spirit of life, not the law of sin and death (Romans 8). When speaking of living faith that produces works of love, he cites Abraham sacrificing Isaac. Right here the legalists' argument is stopped, because there is clearly no "law" that we are to sacrifice our first-born sons! Trying to connect Abraham's faith & works to obeying the Ten Commandments (especially the Sabbath) is thus a major, major fallacy. The law wasn't introduced until 430 years after Abraham, anyway (Gal.3:17). James is not giving a sermon on how we must obey the letters of the law. Instead, James is showing the importance of works that arise from **listening to the voice of God**. We follow His Spirit, not the letter, and it is crucially important to respond when He calls you, because He Himself is our salvation and only calls us to places that are good for us (even if they look painful at the beginning). | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 398 Registered: 7-2004 |
In my BSF study this week we started looking at James. I am a very visual person. The Holy Spirit works with my mind by showing me His truths through "visual" examples. As I was struggling with those verses in James that talk about loving God and our works being an important part of faith, it suddenly dawned on me that my marriage is an awesome example of the works God wants of us. When my husband and I were first married, we were both very immature. Of course, we loved each other - isn't that why a couple marries? But there were many hurts and sorrows as both of us struggled to give and take. Many times our "actions spoke louder than words" - in other words we said "I love you" to each other but would react in certain situations that said otherwise. Praise God, His love is present in our lives. 20+ years after meeting my husband I can say that both of our "works" at marriage mirrors our deep, abiding love for each other. Of course, there are days that we still struggle but through those struggles we continue to rely further on each other and our "works" only improve. This is how our works for God is. Only with a growing love for Him can we even begin to show our love through our works. It is not what we do of ourselves - it is the love we have through Jesus that our works amount to anything. GIVE ME JESUS!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1762 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dd--so very true. Great analogy. Colleen |
