| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1359 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'm not at Walla Walla (now, although I graduated from there 'way too long ago!), but am in the Loma Linda area. What I see is that the current 20-something Adventists seem to be more Christ-focussed in their language than they were 20 years ago, but I don't see the college-aged Adventists of 20 years ago as being fixated on rules, either. Today's young Adventists are exactly the same as yesterday's young Adventists in one respect: they both reflect the worldviews of their generations. Today's college students in general are more "spiritual" than people were a couple or three decades ago, but that spirituality isn't necessarily any closer to Jesus than was yesterday's socially concerned, more "scientific" generation. I have a dear friend (former SDA) who teaches at La Sierra University. She says that her students talk a lot about the "Spirit" and even "Jesus", but they know nothing of orthodox doctrines or of the Bible. Their "spirituality" is shallow and egocentric. While some are meeting Jesus, many are simply using a "Jesus focus" as a means of finding a comforting structure to relax in. It's faily popular right now to be "into Jesus", but these kids really have no idea about God's justice, about the impact of Jesus' death, about the new birth, etc. There is a young 20-something Adventist who is definitley searching and growing who's been coming to our Friday night Bible study. He teaches a Sabbath School class, but he's discovering the New Covenant and is reading Dale's book. This young man said that when he grew up (in this area, I might add), he was taught (as I was) that Jesus died for us because we were so bad. He died to save us; our sin nailed him to the cross; he suffered because I was so bad. With that kind of suffering because of my sin, Jesus was just a cosmic guilt trip that left one feeling helpless to please Him. I loved the way he described his picture of Jesus; it's exactly the way I was taught about Jesus. Even today's young Adventists are not taught the supremacy, the sovereignty, the power of Jesus. He is a sort-of weak, sympathetic person who did a REALLY noble deed because of us. But Jesus said no one took his life from Him; He laid it down Himself. He didn't die and suffer because I was so bad; he died and suffered because He took my sin. His death wasn't because I nailed Him to the cross; it was because He chose to lay it down, to become a curse for us. Jesus' didn't do a good deed for us. He was true to Himself. He died because he took responsibility for sin, and he made us His righteousness. His death wasn't a response to my sin; it was a fact that preceeded creation. So, Schasc, I don't think that in general college-aged Adventists are more interested in an authentic relationship with Jesus than before. There were plenty before that wanted one but couldn't figure out how to have it. They have just found a way to ignore many of Adventism's rules and claim Jesus, but they don't, in general, really know Him in a deep, life-changing way. They'll talk about Him, but they don't delve into the Bible or really seek after truth. They still believe the core Adventist distinctives, and they would be afraid to leave them for fear of losing salvation. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1457 Registered: 11-2002 |
Colleen, what you said about Jesus dying for us because we are so bad reminds me of a conversation over at my moms several evenings ago. Ny kids had a friend over. My mom asked is we'd all like to come over for dinner so of course we went. The young man talked about his uncle, aunt and two cousins who were all killed in a car accident. Then about his own fear of dying. I asked him if he is a Christian and he said he was so I told him then he needn't be afriad to die. Then my mom asked him if he is a good person. He said he is good sometimes, but he did end up in jail once for being drunk and causing some vandelism and he has done this and he has done that, etc. Then my mom told him if he's Christian and a good person he can go to heven and be with Jesus after he's been dead in the grave until Jesus comes. She quoted "The living know they will die but the dead know nothing" text. I generally say nothing around my mom or other SDA's however this is a very nice young man so I butted in. I said, "The Bible tells us if you have faith in Jesus and trust Him then you WILL be saved. It doesn't go by how good you are". I did tell him though that it's very unwise to be getting drunk and rabblerousig. Then my mom told him if he's already a Christian then he needs to take the next step and learn what God requires from us. Fortunately right about this time the fellow finished his meal and went out to be wih his friends. After we got back to my house I told him about Tex Watson. Remember him? He's the man who committed the murders for Charles Manson. In fact, you can go to his website. Under search just type in his name. It's a wonderful website. He is an ordained minister who is doing wonderful things by the power of the Holy Spirit wthin the CA. prison system. I told my sons friend that on the scale of doing bad things Tex Watson rankes pretty high in my book. Yet, at the same time his past has been redeemed, like all of ours has and that Tex is sure of is salvaton. So, yes, I heard it with my own ears just this week that jesus wants the good people. Which totally ignores a lot of passage about Jesus, such as his taking with the adultress woman and other unsaorypeople. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1004 Registered: 3-2004  |
As you have said Colleen, we older SDAs, unknowingly, found ways to be comfortable with Adventism. I remember feeling very uncomfortable in the SDA belief system. I did try reading my Bible, but I had on my EGW filters. I cannot tell you all the reasons I was uncomfortable, but I know I was. It was not until after I was divorced, quit going to church(most of the time), then joined a 12 step group that I learned how much God loved me. After I joined the 12 step group I was able to tell people what God did for me. I was a happy person and still am. Before I learned how much God loved me I was not a happy SDA, much less a Christian. I remember during the week of prayers at the SDA schools, I would go forward, feeling so unworthy, and there was no follow up to help any of us learn about Jesus. It got to the point I did not like being emotional about religion because it did not help me. It was only after I gave up my EGW filters and started reading the Bible, that I can cry for joy in church or at home. I am finally recognizing what cognitive dissononace is all about and did to me. I was taught never to question anything and being an obedient child I did not-at home or at school. I took it all in, hook, line and sinker. Satan thought he had me, but I am so happy that God is stronger and he has redeemed my past. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 199 Registered: 5-2004 |
Dd, I graduated from WWC's nursing program in 1997. Meaning I spent the last 2 years in Portland. And I did notice a few people who wanted to pursue an authentic relationship with Christ rather than be self-appointed "hall monitors" for the religious rules and regs. But those (SDAs) that pursued Christ rather than religion really got "beat up" by most everybody else. And not being an SDA, I was on the other side of the wall from most everybody, whether they were evangelical, liberal, conservative, or historic SDAs. Meaning even those who were excited about Christ still really didn't much respect what I had to say about religious matters because I was an outsider. It surprised me, because usually college is a time where questioning and exploring is encouraged. the opposite was true at WWC. In fact, there was a big kafuffle over the religion teachers being too open and encouraging too much free thought, while I was there. There was even talk of running some of them off and finding new ones. Perhaps WWC is a liberal, evangelical campus compared to other SDA colleges, but compared to the spiritual environment I came from, it was dry and warped. I did meet my husband there, however. And met some good friends who I have kept in touch with. (most of them are no longer SDA, but a few are.) | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 200 Registered: 5-2004 |
LindyLou, I wnet ot public school, and felt much more free to express my spirituality there than I ever did in SDA circles. Of course, some of my friends in public school were New Age, or Satanists, Mormons, JWs atheists, etc. But we were pretty oepn to each others ideas. No one was looked down on for thinking differently. We wanted to share our beliefs with each other, not "correct other's sadly mistaken mindsets." And we saw students and even some teachers there led to CHrist as a result of student influence. I definitely felt oppression in Walla Walla. never more than when a group of us would gather on the lawn to pray simply for God's presence to be on that place, and in the hearts of the students and profs. For some reason, most students and teachers just did NOT like our prayer group out there. And they badmouthed us, and even keep us from meeting, saying that all such meetings had to approved my the faculty, and ours certainly was not. (Some of the students in the group were SDA, some not.) It was all very strange and unsettling. I get the creeps just remembering it. It brought up reminiscences of the Frank Peretti books on tangible spiritual warfare. there was definitely spiritual warfare going on there! And probably still is, I would imagine. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1460 Registered: 11-2002 |
Does the SDA church consider itself to be Evangelical? In reading your posts about WWC I gather at least WW does. I would not consider the SDA evangelcal. I have a close relative who is a teacher at that school. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1363 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tanya, your sense of oppresion at WWC is so interesting. When I was there, I was thoroughly Adventist, and I felt comfortable. When I went back on campus maybe 8 or 10 years ago, however, I found the whole area to be depressing. It startled me, because that's not how I remembered experiencing it. I believe you, actually, about your perception of the area. Susan, the Adventist church is currently claiming itslef to be a mainline Christian church. They historically cringe at the word "evangelical", but they are trying to market themselves as an evangelical church today, at least in some areas. They may not claim the term for themsleves, but they are trying to mimic evangelical church services, programs, etc. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 331 Registered: 10-2004  |
I don't think they like to use the term Evangelical, but they are now claiming (in press releases, etc.) to be a "mainstream Protestant denomination." Funny, I thought Ellen told them that "mainstream Protestantism" is Babylon! Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1009 Registered: 3-2004 |
As I write this I am wondering if all SDA communities feel so oppressive. I was last in Loma Linda about 5 years ago, but at that time I was a pseudo SDA. So I did not feel anything. I know that at this point in time, I do not like to go to the SDA web sites. This feeling of gloom settles on me. So, any one who lives in a predominantly SDA area, such as Silver Springs, MD, La Sierra, Loma Linda, PUC is there that feeling of oppression there??? Diana | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 201 Registered: 5-2004 |
On the whole, i don't think most SDAs do like the term evangelical. But there is a small contingent of SDAs who do like to call themselves evangelical. They generally get flack from others for being "soft on sin" because their focus isn't on the rules as much as it is on Jesus. -tanya- | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1461 Registered: 11-2002 |
This'll get the smoke coming out of your ears. Diana, I just can't help myself! While at my moms house this evening I picked up the latest Amazing Facts magazine she had on the coffee table. They have oodles of new EGW books out only with new titles. But, the book that really caught my eye is the new one that is advertised to lead people to the last day remnant church with the six truths that other churches don't have. Those six are, 1. the state ofthe dead, 2. EGW, 3. the health message, 4. the Sabbath, 5. the second coming and 6. the judgement/resrurection. I guess they even realize they can't put Jesus in this list because true Christianity does have the truth of Jesus. To those of you in the Maryland/Wash., D.C. Amazing Facts is having outreaches scheduled over there, a lot of them. BTW, Pheeki, Ric and you others who post on CARM-I have never posted o there. Nor do I intend to start. However, I read the postings frequently and I must say you sure are up with some folks who seem to desire keeping their heads in the sand. I just sit here in total amazement at their reasoning on most every subject brought up on that discussion board. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1012 Registered: 3-2004 |
I guess if they made Jesus the object of their affections, they would lose their "differentness" and "originality". It never ceases to amaze me what the SDA church will do to put Him down, denigrate Him, belittle Him and take Him out of the picture. As for me give me Jesus. He is all I need. God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2005 |
I'd like to address Schasc's question in regards to young people's looking more at a relationship versus being concerned about the rules: I have a teenager who attends the local academy. The kids talk about religion and God. But they are still reluctant to delve very deep into the traditional beliefs of the SDA church. Because of my "rebellion" against adventism my daughter has been asking her own questions. She has tried to get her friends to discuss the concerns about doctrine that she hears at home, but her Christian friends put her off and don't want to go there. One good friend usually responds with "Let's pray". But it is done in a way that makes my daughter feel uncomfortable - like her friend is worried about the direction of her thoughts. There seems to be a surface concern for spiritual things. But fear of thinking outside the SDA box is still prevelant in this generation. Despite the fact the EGW is rarely mentioned in the pulpit - her influence is still there in the current generation. They just don't know it. I do agree that SDA's in general have been emphasizing a relationship with Christ more than they ever did when I was in school - and yes, there is a less blatant focus on "rules" - but kids still don't have an understanding of God's amazing Grace and love for them. They still don't feel the assurance of their salvation. They worry about whether or not they are saved. Here's an example: A few weeks ago, my daughter told me after a Bible study we had - that she saw God's Grace for the first time and knew the joy of her assurance of salvation. She felt as if she had given her heart to God for the first time because of what she understood about the free gift of salvation and not being under the requirements of the law. Last week, the academy had a week of prayer. My daughter told me this morning that she was confused - she heard other students get up and talk about all the things that they weren't doing right and what the kids should be doing to have a relationship with God. She said, "Mom, I am confused. Maybe I am in error about not being under the law anymore! Maybe I should be doing more to be saved." AARGGH! My mother heart felt such pain at those words. I encouraged her to hold on to that kernal of truth that had just a week ago brought her such joy in Jesus - and to keep reading Romans and Galations to keep that simple truth before her. My girl longs to be able to sit down and explore the Bible with young people who are not afraid to explore and discuss things that make the typical SDA person feel threatened. It is an ongoing frustration for her that she cannot do that at the SDA school that she attends. She feels quite lonely at times. Yes, change has been in the air - but it hasn't gone deep enough. So that is my take on your question, Schasc. For what it's worth! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1364 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lindylou--you're exactly right. What you have seen parallels what I've observed. The change in the air, I fear, is not true change. It's mainly a new "angle" so Adventism's "detractors" can't say they're not grace-based Christians. Of course, there are those who really are finding Christ. As a church, though, they're retrenching themselves even more firmly in denominationalism. An example of what I mean is a "Christian" coffee house that was here in Redlands for a couple of years. It closed last summer, I think it was. What the Christians in the area didn't realize at first was that it was run by Adventists, but they didn't want to publicize that fact. They brought in Christian bands and various churchh worship leaders to lead praise times every Friday night, and many of the area youth groups and pastors would go there and thought it was just great to have this Christian coffee house available. On Sabbath, they didn't serve food/drinks but opened the place for Bible studies. Richard knows a youth pastor from near here who had been asked to lead music one Friday night. This person had had several conversations with Richard over the previous months in which they discussed Adventism, and he knew that this coffee house was run by Adventists. He still didn't think it was a problem, though, because it was all so Christ-centered, and people from differen Christian churches were being asked to come and lead music. On this particular Friday night, the youth pastor led worship, and he told Richard later that it was a powerful evening. The Holy Spirit was palpably present, and some kids gave their lives to the Lord. At the end of the evening, one of the two owners went to him and told him that they wouldn't be able to invite him back because they didn't like his "spirit". At that point, that man began to "get it". AFter about two years in operation, the coffee house closed amid whispers and hints, even in the press, of shady business dealings, claiming a non-profit business license when they did not have one for this state, and unpaid bills. All this in spite of the fact that the owners had been interviewed at various times as the coffee house opened and operated, and the owners continually talked about serving the Lord, helping people meet Jesus, and told stories of people being blessed and drawn to the Lord as a result of the coffee house's ministry. I don't doubt many people did experience the Lord there--they certainly did the night Richard's friend led music. But the fact is that the two owners, a brother/sister in their late 20's, talked the talk of Christ-centered, grace-based Christianity--but they were Adventists through and through, so much so that they were uncomfortable with a powerful Christian worship leaders. This is only one example, but it represents what I'm trying to describe. Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 335 Registered: 7-2004 |
Schasc, As a parent of children, who unfortunately are still in the SDA school system here in WW (long story), I have to say that in the elementary school things look different on the surface but when you really look, it is very much the same as when I was my children's age. It may be it is different at the college level but from the few college kids that I have spoken to, who attend WWC, it seems to be the same - the surface looks more Jesus-centered but deep-down, it is the same old "rules" and the kids seem frustrated that they are not "good-enough". Walla Walla is known in the SDA community as being liberal, tolerant evangelical. Here are a few examples of what I have encountered in the WW SDA elementary school: You probably know that there is a brand new elementary school in CP. Last year it was decided this move to a new school would be a good time to change the name of the school. The choices were "Rogers Adventist School" or "Rogers Christian School". Adventist was chosen over Christian. To me that is a pretty good indication that it is better to be Adventist than Christian. My third grader came home earlier this school year with a Bible assignment he had done at school. The subject was sin. There were four different situations depicted. The first one was of a little girl taking money out of her mother's purse - the sin of stealing. I don't remember the other two but the fourth one was two little boys playing baseball on Sabbath - the sin of breaking the Sabbath day. In this particular class room, the teacher has Bible scheduled at the end of the day. My son tells me that they only have time for Bible a couple days of the week. My Jr. High student has Bible class only 2 out of 4 quarters. They have math, PE, band, choir, art classes all 4 quarters. I guess since it is not a Christian school but an Adventist school they only need Bible classes 2 quarters.  During these 2 quarters of Bible they are studying EGW's "The Story of Redemption". Schasc, I could go on and on - it has been a long journey and I know that God has a purpose in all this. The biggest plus, for our family, is that we are in God's Word every morning before we send our kids off to their Adventist education. Next year they will be returning to the CHRISTIAN school they attended before we moved here. At that school our kids memorized Scripture, studied every subject with God at the center and they were in the Bible and Bible only! God led us to this SDA-mecca to open our eyes and set us free in His love and grace. GIVE ME JESUS! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1463 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lindylow, keep on encouraging your daughter. Is your husband SDA? Colleen did they serve coffee at this coffee house? Coffee is against the SDA religion. What about mixing sugar and milk together, EGW says to not do that, too. How about cinommon? Some coffee drinks contain cinommon. EGW says that cinnomom excites the animal parts of the brain. Yeah, it's true. She really said that. I can only figure from that statement she must have thought animals and people are the same. Which only makes sense to me if you fully understand the SDA uderstanding of The Holy Spirt and the SDA understanding of the state of the dead. Dd, it will be good to get your children back in the Christian school. Years ago I was considering sendng one of my children to a non-denominational Christian school. My mom and another family member even offered to pay his tuition to the local SDA school. I truned then down saying I'd rather he go to the Christian school. A quote here from my mom, "Oh, that is too bad you would expose him to what he'll be taught there". Me, "What do you mean? It's a Christian school?" Mom, "They will teach him a lot of bad things there that go against God's word." Me, "Like what? It's a Christian school. He'll be taught to place his trust and faith in Jesus. They won't teach him anything bad. What are you talking about?" My mom, "They'll tell him it's right to go to church on Sunday and it's o.k. to eat pork". I then walked home. He didn't go to that school after all but went to a different Christian school in the community but yeah, I've heard it all. The SDA's in my life absoutely hate it when I use the term Christian. It very visibly upsets them. Colleen, why do you and everyone else out there think that is? Why do the SDA's so hate it when the term Christan is used in their presence? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 110 Registered: 7-2004 |
Could it be that somewhere deep in their subconscious minds they recognize truth, and as a result they recognize that Adventism is not Christian in nature? My recollection of being SDA was always being a little on guard, like there was something to fear, even though I'd been taught that Jesus died for me, and that He loved me. There was still a cognitive dissonance in all that I'd learned. I think I recognized that fact even as a young child. I was uncomfortable about "sharing my faith" as a SDA, but I'll shout my liberation in Christ from the rooftops now. My understanding of the process of salvation makes it something I am more than willing to share. There are people who truly love Jesus in the SDA church, I learned to love him there, I was brought to the foot of the cross while still a member, so I know that Jesus and the Holy Spirit can work on people's hearts anywhere, even in an Adventist environment, but their works orientation keeps people from truly celebrating salvation while still members. That is all governed by the fact that EGW told people that they should never lay hold on their own salvation and claim it as an accomplished fact. That one piece is gone from their puzzle, and their pictures will always be incomplete without it. Give me Jesus Belva | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 336 Registered: 7-2004 |
Schasc, I want to invite you to a Bible study my friend Linda (Lindylou), her mom and I are starting. We are going to walk through the book of Galatians, verse by verse and chapter by chapter. I think we will have several WWC students join us and a few non-SDA Christians, also. If you are interested, please email Colleen (formeradventist@yahoo.com) and she will either give you my address or email your address to me (thanks, as always, dear Colleen!). My family and I are leaving for a winter get-away for a week - if I do not respond right away, that is why. I know you could also email Linda as we would both enjoy meeting you. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1465 Registered: 11-2002 |
Belva, I don't know your age but I am in my 50's. When I was a kid at church on Saturdays we would be given these forms to fill out indicating how many contacts we made during the past week of our works. In fact, I found some of them while cleaning out my garage recently. I plan to snail mail them to Colleen. On these forms we were to indicate how many items of clothing we gave away, how much food we gave away, if we did any Bible Studies, how many people we invited to come to Sabbath School, etc. These forms were collected by the ushers. I don't have any idea what happened to those forms after the ushers got them. Anyway the person who got the most on the list of each item listed got to stand up in front of the church so the rest of the congreation could see how much more effort was put out for the Lord by that person than anyone else in the congreation. Now that I reflect back on it this sort of thing does not teach contrite humility. In fact, it teaches we are in competetion for God's favor. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1366 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, I agree with Belvalew above. I also think Adventists are put off by the word "Christian" for much the same reason they're put off by the name "Jesus". They think of Christians as both people to be feared (because they are apostates and because they will persecute Adventists) and as people with strong power to deceive the remnant into apostacy. The question, of course, is why they would fear being deceived by Christians if they are 100% sure they are right? Of course, many Adventists don't know Jesus and haven't experienced the new birth, so to them, encountering a Christian means pitting their ideology against a competing one. It's not a relationship. I read a document printed from the internet (GreatControversy.org) by a man named Larry Kirkpatrick this weekend. He is a historical Adventist who pastors the Mentone SDA church in this area. He is one of a group of really active historic Adventists who are calling for the church to return to its roots and stop compromising. (Actually, I agree with this group in that one sense--if people are going to be Adventists, they should be honest Adventists instead of pretending that what the church really is doesn't affect them.) That being said, the things this group promulgates is fanatical--even outrageous. I'll quote a couple of passages: "You could plant a Lutheran church in the 16th century and you were on the cutting edge. You could plant a Baptist church in the 17th century and that was riding God's wave. But from the 19th century till now, present truth has moved to the last notch. Now you must plant a Seventh-day Adventist Church to be following the Lamb wherever He goes (Revelation 14:4). In 1844 Jesus crossed the line." And here's a following passage: "Now that Jesus is cleansing the sanctuary, all pre-1844 Christianity is outdated. We cannot return to it." There it is: this is from the pen of an Adventist minister currently employed by the Southeastern California Conference. What he says is entirely consistent with Ellen. This is true Adventism--not offshoot Adventism. While many if not most SDA pastors would not be this bold, still they remain Adventists. Bottom line: true Adventism holds all Adventists, no matter how enlightened they believe they are, in bondage and confusion. At least this person is honest about his Adventism. Sigh. Colleen |
