| Author | Message | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 191 Registered: 7-2004  |
We were discussing I Corinthians 3:10-15 in our BSF class recently. What do you think ìeach manís workî is? Here are the verses: Immediately before these texts, it was talking about Paul planted, Apollos watered, and God caused growth. And it says we are Godís fellow workers. Before class time, I took that to mean that we are all workers in bringing others to Christ, and depending on how carefully we do our work, we will either have a lot to show for it in heaven, or little or nothing to show for it in heaven. I was a little surprised at class to hear in the lecture what these verses are supposed to mean, and it reminded me of SDA perfection, with the exception that at least we donít have to be perfect to get to heaven, just the more perfect we become on earth the greater reward weíll get in heaven. We were literally told in the lecture that ìour workî is the choices we make every day to become more Christlike or to feed the carnal nature instead. When our life on earth is over, our spirit will go to heaven as it is, and we will either be barely saved with little or no spiritual growth, or we will be healthy, mature and grown up in Christ. If this scenario is correct, is there no spiritual growth after we get to heaven? I thought at the end, when we put on immortality and we are changed, thatís when we would receive our ìperfectionîóand so in heaven, everyone will be ìperfectî regardless of how far from perfection we were on earth, even just before death. Is this lecture I heard right? Does anyone else have a problem with this? That seems to put everything onto our choices. The focus is on perfecting ourselves as much as possible before heaven. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 299 Registered: 6-2004 |
For HE who began a good work in YOU, will be faithful to complete it. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 626 Registered: 7-2003  |
Raven, in context this text is dealing with the work of spreading the Gospel, but I do believe it is teaching that what we do during this life has eternal implications. This is where we got confused as SDAs. Whenever we saw Jesus or one of the apostles talking about our works being judged, we automatically equated that with a judgment for salvation. The Bible is clear that our works do not determine our salvation. As believers, our salvation is an accomplished fact through grace alone, by faith alone, in Jesus alone. So what do we make of all the passages that say our works will be judged? Judged for what? I think the passage you quoted above, and especially some of Jesus' parables help to clarify. I believe there is a strong biblical case to be made for the idea that our works are judged for reward. According to Jesus' parables, those who are faithful with what they have been given now, will be given even more responsibility/reward in the Kingdom. Although we'll all be perfectly happy and content in the final state, there will still be varying degrees of reward and responsibility in the eternal Kingdom. We're not given a lot of detail on what this may mean, but it does seem reasonable, based on what the Bible says, to believe our works here on earth result in eternal reward in Heaven......whatever that may mean. This idea made me uncomfortable when I first started studying the related passages because I couldn't seperate "reward" from "salvation" in my recently-SDA mind. I think Rick Warren presents this rather well (a very loose paraphrase by me): God will some day ask us two questions; 1) What did you do with my Son Jesus? 2) What did you do with the time, opportunities, and resources I gave you? The answer to the first question will determine WHERE we spend eternity. The answer to the second question will determine HOW we spend eternity. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 709 Registered: 7-2003  |
I read the context from the beginning of the chapter and past this passage a ways. While I don't find any support for suggesting that our spirits remain at the maturity level of when we leave this body, (we are changed, and what we now know in part, we will someday see in full...face to face, no longer looking in a mirror...etc.) I see great change and education for "all" regardless of spiritual maturity. But having read the passage, it does seem to be talking about what we do to build upon ourselves based upon the foundation of Christ. It seems (based upon context), people were being "boastful" or "proud" of who lead them to Christ [and personally, this passage is why I think the whole idea of denominationalism is "wrong" when used to say this group is better than another...] In verse 5, he questions who is Paul, who is Apollos except ministers through whom they believed? In verse 6-8, it speaks of Paul and Apollos' work of watering and planting....not merely of themselves, but of those converts who were boasting about who they were "in". So, in that respect, Verse 8 concludes that each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. The labor they were talking about is watering and planting, associated with the new converts. For that reason, I don't think he is merely talking about the spiritual growth of oneself. But neither can you take it out of the passage either.... verse 9 says we are fellow workers, a field of God and a building of God. In verse 10, it talks about one laying the foundation, and another building upon it. So, it is not simply the choices I make to become more Christlike, but it is the influence I have on others and allow others to have on me. To carry on into verse 16 (Bs favorite verse to "prove" vegetarianism is a spiritual requirement since that is God's best food.....) talks about our being the sanctuary of God and the dwelling place of God's spirit. So, it is also talking about our own lives too. If you continue on through chapter 3 into chapter 4, there is a very interesting (and perhaps concluding) verse in 6..."I transferred these things to myself and Apollos because of you, that in us you may learn not to think above what has been written, that you not be puffed one over the other. 7 For what makes you differ? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?" Because of the SDA baggage, I see how it can sound as though perfectionism might be being taught in this isolated passage, but if you follow the passage through, it seems to me to ultimately end on the idea we are nothing of ourselves and shouldn't be so boastful. I do think the interesting thing in this passage that seems to contradict SDA's IJ is that of our salvation being secure regardless of our works. Even if all our works burn up, we are still saved. That's just my brief analysis of the passage, trying to keep the fuller context in mind. Our work is everything we do to build the body of Christ...which we are a part of, but we aren't the whole of it. We clearly lay stones in the lives of others. And I know I have grown because of others sharing their lives with me both on this forum and in my church and in my friendships from the body not in my local fellowship. Hope that helps ... and others can correct if I've mis-stated. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1373 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree with Chris and Melissa. I also used to have a hard time separating the idea of "reward" from "salvation". It dawned on me one day, though, that salvation is not a reward; it is a gift. Rewards are given in response to us; gifts are reflections of the giver's heart. I've come to see this passage having to do with God rewarding us, as Chris explained, according to how completely we surrendered our own desires to Christ and allowed Him to do His work through us. Oswald Chambers, in My Utmost For His Highest, talks about the difference between Christians zealously doing work for God that they embrace because it seems like such important work, and those who wait in surrender for God to give them His work. The best way I can describe this concept is by example: one person who has accepted Christ and wants to work for Him might, in the flurry of enthusiam and energy following conversion, launch into some form of ministry that seems attractive and important, but it may not actually be what God wants him to do. If that person persists in building his "spiritual dream" in spite of setbacks and problems, that dream will increasingly be all about the person doing it. It will more and more become a personal venture and not God's desire. On the other hand, when a Christian asks God to show him what He wants him to do, God will bring that work to him. It may be some particular ministry, or it may be simply to do what one is already doing--but in a new way, as an offering to God. I heard a great talk at the school where I taught one Easter week a few years ago. The work of the Spirit in our lives is whatever God places before us to do. It may be changing diapers on an infant and nurturing a family; it may be staying in an unpleasant job but being light in darkness and loving the unlovable for God, honoring Him with what we do and say; it may be ministry--etc. The work God rewards is the work we do in the Spirit, in surrender and submission to Christ, in humble obedience to Jesus as He places in our lives the jobs He planned in advance for us to do (Ephesians 2:10). The work that is burned up is the work we do that is outside an attitude of surrender and submission to Christ. If we chafe at the circumstances we're in and try to "make things happen" according to our dreams, we are moving ahead of the Spirit. Those works are the ones that will be burned up. If we try to do ministry by moving into an outreach that appeals to us and seems important based on our own assessment, that ministry will be limited in the good it can do because it's motivated by our own dreams instead of by an act of God. None of these works, however, is about salvation. All of this is within the context of ALREADY BEING SAVED! We won't lose our salvation if our works are misguided or even somewhat selfish. Our growth in the Lord, however, will be limited if we resist surrendering our dreams and goals to Jesus. Our growth will be proportional to our willingness to submit to Him and give up our own desires in favor of allowing Him to bring to us what He wants us to do. Works of gold, silver, and precious stones are the works that the Holy Spirit inspires and equips us to do. They are works we do because they are our responsibility, and we submit them to God as offerings to Him. Works of wood, hay, and stubble are works we generate out of (perhaps) good intentions but without waiting on the Lord. They are works we pursue according to our own insight or business sense or even as a result of our own restlessness. Whatever we do apart from the Spirit is work that will be burned up. It's all about continuing surrender. And through it all, our salvation is secure! Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 192 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for the responses, and I agree with each of your posts. From what I'm reading in your posts, it seems that the focus is doing the work the Holy Spirit would have us to do to uplift Christ, rather than focusing on perfecting our characters. Obviously, the more Christ-like we are, the better witness we'll be for the gospel. But I was disappointed with BSF's emphasis that "our work" is literally getting our characters perfected, and however it is at the end of our life is what gets taken to heaven. To me, that's totally out of context of what the verses are saying. And while I do see the difference between salvation and reward, I still think the BSF emphasis I heard last night is similar to SDA's in that the focus is on perfecting our characters so that we'll have a good enough character in heaven. I realize the SDA's reason for a good enough charater is to receive salvation, while last night's lecture basically said the reason for a good enough character is for rewards. Forget focusing on a good enough character! If we are listening to the Holy Spirit it will improve eventually and will be completed at the end of our life. I still think "our works" that will last throughout eternity is not our character, but our witness to others. That witness can be influenced by our character, but it's Christ's work (not ours) that transforms our character. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 282 Registered: 5-2002 |
To anyone trying to "perfect their characters", I have two words for you: "GOOD LUCK!" God is the only One capable of perfecting anything or anyone. The Scriptures declare that even our righteous works are nothing but filthy rags to God who alone is perfect. Perfectionism is heresy. | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2004 |
Collen, This is Raven's post, but I must reply to a sentence of yours that gave me a brief moment of "hope." ...Staying in an unpleasant job in order to serve God...well...from one H.S. teacher to a former H.S. teacher...you can relate. There are always the political slants, the "bad" kids, and the frequent lots of work for little gain that goes into the job...BUT the one or two kids that you KNOW you are getting through to (both educationally and spiritually) makes it more plausible and tolerable. Just had to type this out and let you know that it helped me out in some trying times at school on the job. Eric | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1476 Registered: 11-2002 |
If I remember correctly when I was a little girl in Sabbath School we got to wear Burger King crowns. Then for each person druing the week that we wittnessed to we'd get to put a star on our crown. Then we were told when we got to heaven everyone else in heaven would know how many people we brought to Jesus (Meaning: SDA) by counting how many starts are on our crowns. And, how come God approvs of crowns but not necklaces, rings, earrings and other pretty adornments? Do you others remember all that crown stuff in cradel roll and kindergarten? How about with your own children? | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2005 |
I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea of varying amount of rewards to be given out in heaven. Of course I'll be happy to be in heaven without a crown and will NOT be envious if I'm wrong and others have multi-jeweled crowns - however.... I think of the parable of the laborers in the field that started working at different times of the day and then all got paid the same - but perhaps I am confusing the reward of salvation with the reward of responsibility allocated in eternity? I just have a hard time envisioning the "duties" we will be assigned as rewards. It seems to me that they would be based on our personalities and talents and areas of forte. I think that is what Paul is talking about in these verses in Corinthians. He is reinforcing the idea that despite our different areas of expertise that we all have the same goal - to preach Jesus Christ and Him alone. He also seems to be saying that if I plant a seed and someone else nurtures it - that I shouldn't take credit for anything beyond what I did. I can't rely on the "fruits" of someone elses labors to build myself up. At the same time, whether I am out there on the frontlines or quietly in the background, my work is still important in regards to sharing the gospel. And he is stressing that it is imperative that whatever we do - we have Jesus Christ as the foundation. Any thing built on anything other than Jesus will be burnt away despite what it looks like to the world. I believe that our only "work" is to believe the wonderful Gospel of Grace and when the opportunity arises, help others catch a glimpse of this truth by sharing our own experience. Satan works on a daily basis to take the full assurance of our salvation away from us. I can also see that the use of the word "work" in these verse could easily be a synonym for "fruits". Or think of this: We throw a pebble into the water - the ripples roll out from our personal point of contact - influencing other parts of the water. Once we set the ripples in motion - they are no longer in our control. Some of those ripples may have a beneficial affect and others harmful. It is up to God to decide if the results are good or bad - in the best analogy each ripple would have a life of its own and be responsible for what it chooses to do with the influence that washes over it. If our original point of contact is based on Jesus Christ - that is all that matters for us personally - some of the results (works) or our influence with turn out good and others not so good, but we don't have control over that. That is a very imperfect analogy and maybe doesn't make much sense - so guess I shall stop here before I totally confuse everyone!  Anyway... interesting discussion - good to think about. Linda | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1377 Registered: 12-2003 |
I understand what you're saying, Linda. What I'm finding now, a few years down the road from finally realizing I am saved, is that God continues to call us, and we continually face the decision of whether or not to respond with surrender. It's that surrender, I believe, that marks the Spirit's work in us. I had trouble with the idea of rewards, too--until I really studied the passage in 1 Corinthians 3 and also looked at the parable of the three men who were given varying amounts of money to manage while their master was away. Those who managed it responsibly in benefit for the master were rewarded by being made "rulers over many things." The one who didn't manage his well was thrown into outer darkness (yes, that's clearly a non-salvation image), but his money was given to the one who had the most. THAT was the part of the parable that always bothered me. Why not give it to the second faithful steward who initially had less so they would be more nearly equal? I'm beginning to realize that God doesn't operate on premises of human fairness. He is sovereign and eternal, and while salvation is free to all who receive it, He does deal with people differently. The idea of rewards seems much more plausible to me than it used to. The rewards aren't related to what KIND of work we do for God but rather on how much of our lives/desires/dreams we have surrendered to Him, giving Him access to work in and through us in His way in those areas. Praise God that He continues to draw us to Himself and to reveal Himself! He is awesome. Colleen | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 255 Registered: 10-2000 |
In Matthew Chapter 24 beginning with verse 45 through 51, this tells me that some "servants" will will be assigned a place with the hypocrits. Please read and tell me your thoughts on these verses 45-51 or from the beginning of this teaching in verse 36-51. "He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrits, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" spoken by Jesus Christ. verse 51 Now to me being a "hypocrit" must mean that one is professing one thing and acting quite the opposite. I can't read my dictionary at this time. It is my understanding also that Jesus is speaking of Christians in these verses because in verse 42 Jesus says "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day YOUR Lord will come." (emphasis mine). In Matthew 25, after the parable of the 10 virgins and the parable of the talents we see the "Sheep and the Goats" teaching. Verse 34-46 we read: "The the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the Kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. vs 35: "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, verse 36: "I needed clothes and you clothed Me, I was in prison and you came to visit Me." verse 37: "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? verse 38: "When did we see You a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe You? verse 39: "When did we see You sick or in prison and go to visit You? verse 40: "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me. verse 41: "Then He will say to those on the His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. verse 42: "For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, verse 43: "I was a stranger and you did not invite Me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after Me." verse 44: "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thristy or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help You? verse 45: "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me." verse 46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." I see our Faith as an active Faith, not just a professed faith. Thoughts? Love in Christ. denise |
