| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1467 Registered: 11-2002 |
The doctrines are not the same but the total committment to the organization and believing the organization is the one aan and true Christian body is the exact same thing with the SDA and the JW. In fact, the words these two organzations use in telling their devotees they are Gods only true organization on this earth are almost identical. The JW's use the word Christian only in reference to themselves. For the rest of Christianity they use the word Christiandom. Their devotees know the meaning of the terms when reading the JW literture. When reading SDA literature, the Review, etc. and I read the appeal in those magazines to take Christianity to all the world I think the Adventists are only referring to themselves. It's a us vs. them mentality. Am I correct in this assumption? When SDA's urge that Christian truth be brought to the entire world they are refererring to themselves, right, and not the gosple of Jesus as taught by the apostles? See, when Rev. Billy Graham and others in the forefront of proclaiming Christianity urge that Jesus be brought to the peoples of the world he is speeeking of the gosple of Jesus and not any one denomination over another. The mind games that the Watchtower organization and the SDA organization plays with their members is extremely similiar. Both claim to be the only true Christians, both calim to be the last day remenant. The SDA's have one prophit, EGW as a continuing and authorative source of truth. The JW's have the governing body of the Watchtower orgaization as a continuing and authorative source of truth. Both oganizations have frequently changed their doctrines and both teach that to leave the organization is to turn away from God and loose eternal life. The truth though is that when I use the name Jesus or the term Christian in converstation with my SDA loved ones and acquatiances these people become visibly upset. I have actually pondered if I'm stiring up demons with those words. I don't like to think about demons though. But, I do realize they are a very real and a very evil entity and so I have pondered this. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 202 Registered: 5-2004 |
I ran into just another little example of the exclusiveness of Adventism today. We are adopting a child from China, and I was emailing someone who had also adopted. It turns out that they live in Walla Walla, and he is on the staff at the college. I mentioned that my husband and I used to go to school there. He said he had just returned from an adoption get-together with Walla Walla families, and he said "there are a couple of other SDA families there too." As if it made any difference whether there were SDAs there or not. Since he took the time to point out that there were SDAs in the group, I took the time to point out that we are not SDA. In the long run, none of this conversation matters. But just the fact that he had to point out the SDA aspect of the group reminded me of the "us against them" mentality that is so hard for me to fathom. I think the "exclusive club" attitude is one of the things that makes it hard for other Christians to break through and talk to them about having a relationship with Christ. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 111 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oh, how true. I have few dealings with SDAs outside my own family (cousins) these days, so I'm out of touch with what is going on in the SDA church. I do get the sense of exclusivity when I'm with my family during gatherings, however. There are three of us who have turned our backs on SDA theology and have joined "other" churches, and we can all feel the shunning. Shunning is only an expression of fear. A few months ago I met an old friend at her SDA church for the service because we were planning to spend the afternoon together, and we each had some things to exchange with each other. Anyway, after services we were invited to one of her friends home for a potluck. At the table, since none of them knew my religious status, it was a lot of fun talking to these people. I, of course, pulled a few of their chains by talking about the assurance I have of salvation. One person became so uncomfortable that she picked up her plate and moved somewhere else. There was a young man at the table, however, who almost celebrated when he heard me say what I said. Evidently he is a student of the Pauline Epistles, and he liked hearing someone else say what he had been studying in those epistles. He asked a very good question, "Why can't we, as Adventists, talk with assurance about what Christ has done for us?" I said, "Why not, indeed!" We both agreed that we enjoyed reading the NT and found it brimming with hope. Then he got side-tracked about commandment keeping, so I simply showed him Matthew 25, and led him through to the conclusion of what Jesus meant by commandment keeping. I also showed him in Galations (remember, he likes Paul) about the fact that we aren't bound by days, weeks, and months, nor are we bound by special diets (showed him that from Romans), and a few other things. All this before I said anything about being a Former. It was really fun to drop a few seeds on fallow ground. That is why I keep saying that there are sincere and hungry people within the SDA denomination. We must continue to pray for them, and as I did, use their own tactics on them--namely, don't declare where you are coming from, just whisper a few words of liberation. They never declare themselves when they are trying to make converts. You can do a lot in a short period of time if you let the Master lead you. Daily, I praise God for the freedom of grace. It is so freeing not to have to keep my eyes focused on my own behavior. I'll let the Holy Spirit do His job, and keep my eyes and ears open so I can do the job Jesus has for me. By the way, Susan, I'm 58. I think I had the good fortune of growing up SDA before all of that information about EGW was made public. This is just a question for you who are old enough to have lived through the SDA church in both eras, the pre-revelation about the EGW hypocracy, and the post-1980 SDA church. Since the truth of her plagerisms has come to light, I find that the tactics, and the very feel of the air within Adventism is just slimier. Personal observation only, but it's mine. I don't know how many times I've had an Adventist friend tell me, "Oh, our minister doesn't preach from EGW anymore, He's completely Gospel. I go, I listen, and I run home to my Presbyterian church to be fed. Jesus is all I need. Belva | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 112 Registered: 7-2004 |
By the way, Susan, I do remember those forms, but they were handed out in MV meetings, and they were an opportunity for me to sin. I had to lie to put anything down on those forms, sometimes. I'll leave the record-keeping to God. Didn't Jesus tell us not to let the left hand know what the right hand was doing when it came to witnessing and such. Christianity is easy, just celebrate that you have been liberated from the job of saving yourself! God bless you all. And Susan, thanks for another reminder of why I don't miss attending the SDA church very much at all. Belva | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2005 |
I agree with Colleen's and Tealeaves's sentiments in regards to the fact that if SDA's are going to really truly call themselves by that name - they should go back to their grassroots - they shouldn't be afraid to use EGW in their sermons. They should be proud of her - quote her and preach her. They should follow all the laws and regulations of both her and the Torah. What is the point of belonging to an organization that you are ashamed of? It makes me picture a congregation of ostriches - all with their heads in the sand. The ignoring, glossing over and sweeping under the rug is just another sign of the great fear that the SDA church is saturated with. It oozes from so many holes that have been punched in the belief system of the church. So my question to any SDA listening in is this: If you believe that the SDA church is the ultimate church of truth and the last one standing, why aren't you embracing and trumpeting EVERY word & aspect of your prophet and doctrinal beliefs? How dare you pick and choose? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1015 Registered: 3-2004  |
Hi Ladies, I remember those cards, now, that we used to have to fill out with all that junk about what we did. I did not like them then and remembering them I do not like them now. I did not do anything so felt very ashamed of not "spreading the gospel". Like you Belva and Susan, I grew up without the internet and knowing about EGW and her plagiarism. I thank my son for teaching me how to use the computer and I thank God for showing the web site about EGW and her plagiarism. I would not be where I am today without them. Thank you God for starting to gently pull me away so many years ago. God is so awesome is His work with us. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 300 Registered: 4-2000  |
Diana, Yes, indeed, there is a feeling of oppression in SDA centers like here in Lincoln, Nebraska. For example, I occasionally go to the library at Union College. When I see these college young people crisscrossing the campus, I have a heavy heart for their welfare spiritually. Recently, an engaged couple from UC were guests at our home. They are such wonderful young people, and I feel very sorry for them as they sit in front the SDA apologist's classes. They simply swallow the SDA hemlock without blinking. Because of their intentional lies to their students, I feel compelled to confront SDA apologists of every rank. Routinely, I catch them in their dishonesty to me. The ultimate rudeness is when they try to negate your testimony and experience. When they cannot biblically dispute my claims, they often attack me personally. SDA apologists are known to jump from one passage to another and from one topic to another when they feel persecuted. In any dialogue with them, it is important not to let them quickly leave the passage under discussion. In regard to the Sabbath topic, I like to include Ephesians 6:5 where Paul tells the Christian slaves to be obedient to their heathen masters. I ask them how the Christians slaves could be obedient to their heathen masters if Sabbath observance was required. Apparently, Adventists think the heathen masters were devoted Sabbatarians (smile). To be fair and objective, some Adventists treat me very well despite my being a former member. When I woke up this morning with a couple inches of snow on the ground, I was delighted that an SDA minister, two houses away, had already run his snowblower over my sidewalks (we live on a corner lot and have more sidewalks than most). When Sylvia was in the hospital several months ago, they brought flowers, gave me a $25.00 restaurant gift certificate, visited my wife in the hospital, etc. After all, when we were still Adventists, I like to think that we were nice people too. In awe of His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1016 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I was younger and in college, we did not have the internet. And I swallowed all their junk, hook, line, and sinker. Now with the internet and all that is on it about EGW, her plagiarism, and the cultic beliefs of the SDA church it is hard to understand why these young people cannot see for themselves what the truth is. Again, it is the EGW filters that people have on, I guess, that prevents them from seeing the truth. Dennis, I am glad that some SDAs treat you decently. I have a sneaking suspicion they will be the ones leaving some time in the future. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 332 Registered: 10-2004  |
Wow, that SDA administrator of the forum that I posted a link to earlier in this thread replied and said some really nasty things to someone from here (posting as "Onfire4Jesus" over there). He wrote:
That pretty much sums up traditional Adventism. This guy is totally Adventist, and I don't know if there is any point in debating with him. Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1469 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tealeaves, Congratulations on the new addition to your family. Is your child a boy or girl? Age? Dennis J., were you a SDA minister? If not, were you denominationaly employed? I only ask because you seem to have so much knowledge about the SDA organizational structure and how it works. And, yes, I have noticed that SDA's as with JW's on whatever topic the discusson is on they jump from one text and link it with half of another text about 10 books further down in the Bible and then add that to a few words of another text in a vastly different book. I have really noticed this especially when the state of the dead comes up in conversation. Their favorite verse is, "The living know they will die but the dead know nothing". When I read the entire passage it seems to be talking about those who are spiritually dead and not referring to physical death. Am I interperting this right? If I am not then could someone please explain that passage to me? I have pretty much come to the conclusion that whatever the SDA's say the Bible requires of us it doesn't and whatever the SDA's say we can't do then according to the Bible we can. SDA's-no meat. Bible-meat is o.k. SDA's-no movies, no bowling, no bicycle riding no this no that. Bible-live a clean cut life that bring glory to God and it's all cool. SDA's-Sabbath observance mandatory. Bible-Let each person be convinced in his own mind. SDA's-must have Jesus as our personal example so we can achieve perfection as He did. Bible-Jesus is or Saviour. We can never become perfect. We live in a state of grace as Christians and are forgiven. I like to tell people I was saved in 33 A.D. Pick whatever subject you want and most likly the SDA church is at least a little bit different on that subject than what the Bible teaches. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 234 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jeremy, that's my alter ego. Maybe I should go back and take a look at what I said that upset him so much! As I've said before, we're usually posting for those looking on, not the ones that are totally closed. We are just planting some seeds. Praise God... | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 708 Registered: 7-2003  |
Jeremy, I've heard that same line from B so many times, I could quote it in my sleep. It's actually amusing to me now because it completely shows his ignorance. First, why is it more "convenient" to worship on Sunday than Saturday? That is the most illogical statement I've ever heard. Second, they say "leaving the church" like you're leaving God...and I realize that is the reality to them, but then in another conversation, B will say that SDAs consider some of those outside their church to be going to heaven.... What a load of double-speak. And to out of hand dismiss the importance of a relationship with Christ in preference to a discussion on "the judgement of the dead" and sanctuary work....give me a break. As soon as the Bible raises those issues as important, I'll take time to fill my day with them. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 175 Registered: 9-2004 |
Months ago, C has said that the world worships on Sunday for convenience also. I told him "How arrogant of you to think that you and your church are the only ones that have it right." That arrogance will kill them, not to mention -- What? God doesn't speak to other churches and have his hand upon them. Yeah, okay, whatever. I get so frustrated by the deception that the enemy has on his mind. But God has the victory and I don't care what the circumstances, God will answer prayers and keep promises! Hallelujah! | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 204 Registered: 5-2004 |
Susan, thanks for the congrats. Actually, we are still waiting for the referral of a little girl from China. Once we get the referral, we will travel to pick her up. We already have 2 biological sons at home, age 2 and 4, so we will have a houseful! -tanya- | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 301 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, You guessed right, I was an SDA minister. I have preached as many as three sermons in one day for them. Yet some devout SDAs like to tell me that I don't really know anything about Adventism or I would never have left them. Oh well, they also attack me when quoting aberrant, unbiblical statements from EGW. The inquiring or questioning person is always the target instead of their prophetess. Adventists have a most liberal stance surrounding their prophetess--she can tell outright lies while maintaining her "sacred" role. This is called "big-time deception." Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 627 Registered: 7-2003  |
Dennis, your statement that you are sometimes told you don't really understand Adventism cracks me up. I get that all the time and it really pushes my buttons. I spent more than 30 years in Adventism. That's more than 1500 Sabbath School classes and sermons. I spent 19 years in SDA gradeschool, college, and university/grad school. That's 38 semesters of SDA doctrinal classes (and I was a good student in those classes). I've attended more Revelation seminars than I care to count and read more EGW books and materials than the majority of my friends and family. All this, and yet I'm still told I just don't understand Adventist doctrine. If I as a lifelong SDA and you as a formaly trained SDA minister don't understand Adventism, then exactly what does it take to understand it? Ironically, when I question some of the people that say these things to me, they readily admit that they don't understand. They'll say things like, "Well, I'm not really a scholar, but I know if you talked to the right person". So why exactly are they so sure I'm wrong when they admit they haven't looked into the issues themselves? Does this make any logical sense? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 710 Registered: 7-2003 |
I had a friend locally who had been SDA for 15 years. He had been head elder and was even studying for the ministry. He left for doctrinal issues...he thought they perverted the gospel and simply taught the 27 fundamentals...not really the whole Bible. When I was talking to B about him leaving (I had introduced them and thought he might be willing to talk to him since he didn't have horns growing from his head) he said he had never really been SDA long enough to understand the religion. I used to ask him how long someone had to be SDA before they could be considered a reputable source to talk about adventism....only those who have positive things to say??? I know I've made a point when I get silence in return. I got it a lot. But loyal he has remained.....hanging on to the stories of those from "nominal" Christianity who have discovered "the truth".... very sad... | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 628 Registered: 7-2003 |
Melissa, Adventists really latch on to various ancedotal experiences as a way to validate their beliefs. I remember having a discussion with my Father-in-law about the Sabbath issue (This was when I was just thinking about transition and was still a SDA so I was safe to talk to). I quoted several of the versus that I had discovered that said we weren't under the Law any more, that said we were under a new covenant, that said we shouldn't judge or be judged based on a day of the week or a Sabbath. My FIL had no Biblical response at all. After thinking for a while he said, "All I know is that there have been too many people that have prayed not to have to work on the Sabbath and then had their prayers answered." That's it? So anytime a prayer appears to be answered in the affirmative we should assume that whatever it was is normative for all Christians? Hmm...let's think about that for a moment. God answered Gideons prayers about making the fleece wet then dry. So should we assume that the proper practice for all people is putting out fleece to discern God's will? We could give several examples where God answered prayers for His own reasons without the answer necessarily being an affirmation for all people. Another that comes to mind is Samson's prayer to avenge himself on his enemies. This just highlights the need for all of us to test our experiences according to scripture. Experiences are notoriously unreliable, but the Word of God can always be trusted to reveal Truth. Chris | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1019 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have to laugh out loud when I read how former SDA ministers and those who have been SDAs for any length of time are told, "you don't understand", when these people find out that the persons involved have left the SDA church. I think, after being out the year I have, that we understand only too well. The Bible is not hard to understand, when the EGW filters are taken off. So far, thank God, I have had no controversy with SDAs. I know God has a role for me somewhere in His work, but He has not let me know what it is, yet. So I am taking this time for Bible study and learning more about what He says. The one thing I will never understand with all of this is how awesome God is. Diana | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 711 Registered: 7-2003 |
When we went through Experiencing God...there were numbers of recounts of times God had answered prayers for the building of their churches, "Sunday churches". I used to ask B how he could think this guy was really getting answers to prayer from God to build churches that would "sin" by being open on the wrong day? That's like God answering a prayer for me to commit adultery as they understand the 4th commandment. Even his SDA pastor uncle thought EG was a wonderful study, but that study is full of God supporting "Sunday," aka apostate, churches. B's response was always God takes us where we are to which I said he has not left me comfortable in an adulterous relationship, why would he leave those churches growing in a sinful relationship? He can't or won't make the links ... there is not logic or Biblical support for their position there. Even Sunday people have prayed to get Sunday off and it has happened. If that is your criteria, then we both win ... right? Look at how the Mormon family said God had answered their prayer when Elizabeth Smart was returned to them (and I am very thankful she beat all odds and was returned alive). But does that prove the mormon faith is "right"? Just shaking my head as I ponder "aloud".... |
