| Author | Message | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 207 Registered: 5-2004 |
Melissa, I think we are all wrong about something, doctrinally. I mean, each of us are off a little bit here or there. And God answers our prayers. Even if we are dead wrong doctrinally, it doesn't mean God is powerless to answer our prayers. I think God purposefully leaves such things up to us to ponder, and gives us answers on a "need to know" basis. But wouldn't it satisfy a lot of curiosity to know His mind and heart on the matter? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1020 Registered: 3-2004  |
The one thing I have learned in the year I have been out of the SDA church is that the gospel is crystal clear. Jesus is the gospel. Now, about other doctrines, that are not salvation issues, God lets us ponder as we study. When the issue is a salvation issue, it is clear as can be. We may not know the complete truth until we get to heaven and that is fine with me. We do have an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 104 Registered: 4-2004 |
Dennis, Reading your post reminds me so much of what I experienced as we were leaving SDA. On two occasions I tactfully challenged two SDA ministers (both MDiv from AU) to show me where I was going wrong using only the Bible. I had sent both detailed explainations of my theological position. Neither of them were willing to talk to me one-on-one. One of them said that I just did not understand SDA doctrine. Like Chris, I spent 19 years in SDA schools, grade one through grad school. I also taught in SDA schools (including Bible classes). I studied SDA doctrines in detail. So I guess if you agree with SDA then you understand it (even though most SDA in the pew don't), but if you disagree it's because you don't understand. Dane | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 101 Registered: 6-2001 |
Chris, it seems like Adventists like to trumpet examples of God answering their prayers, almost like because it doesn't happen very often they have to make a big deal about it. That argument I have also heard. My husband (former Adventist) even had a book with each chapter being a short story of someone who "kept the faith" at work and was rewarded for it. I think there are things you pray for that are neither for or against God's will. And God answers them just to show His love. For instance, my indoors cat escaped outside and was gone for two weeks. I prayed and prayed for him, and then he came back. I see it, when God answers those Sabbath prayers (or the door-to-door booksellers prayers) He is saying, "I know you are seeking after me in the way you know how, and so I will give you the desire of your heart." As for Elizabeth Smart coming back, I think they were just lucky. It had nothing to do with what religion they are, unless God is it working it out for His good somewhere down the road. --Hannah | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 713 Registered: 7-2003  |
I guess that was the real point of what I was trying to say, Hannah. How do we know what is "answers to prayer" as Chris' FIL was talking about and what would happen regardless of whether we prayed about it or not? Such as getting Saturdays (or Sundays) off to attend church...since either day is acceptable to God ... or having a daughter returned from kidnappers. It was more just to "refute" if you will, what Chris' FIL relies on as "proof" that God honors sabbathkeeping. I've also heard it from B that because certain circumstances turn out in SDA's favor that that "proves" God is approving of what they're doing...but the reverse is not also true...that if a result turns in favor of someone who is not SDA that God is giving his approval on what they're doing. To take that argument to it's logical conclusion, anything negative that happens must be seen as God's disapproval, and that doesn't seem to fit with the teachings of scripture ... read Job for example. That's all I was really trying to say, somehow, in support of Chris' statement that we needed to rely on Scripture to know what is true, not emotions or feelings or circumstances. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 630 Registered: 7-2003  |
Becasue I've been reading the life works of Francis Schaeffer lately, I just wanted to make a comment regarding our ability to know truth. Tealeaves, you stated that we're all wrong on some doctrinal point. I think, given our fallen state and our finite nature, that this is probably true to one degree or another. Some, then say that because we don't know truth exhaustively we therefore cannot say with any certainty what truth actually is. So Pilate's question, "What is truth?" remains forever unanswerable. In contrast to this worldly philosophy, God, through the Bible has provided us with propositional, objective, truth. The information that we are given is not exhaustive, but it is truly true. So while we can't know truth exhaustively, we can know truth truly. I find this comforting. Sure there are non-essential doctrines that we Christians will vigorously debate until the second coming, but on the essentials we are unified in Christ. We need not fear that perhaps we've gotten it wrong, because on the essentials, the Bible is clear and the Bible has proved itself to be trustworthy. We need not be left adrift in a sea of relativism, we can trust that the Bible is true, that the truth it contains is objective truth, and that we can know that truth truly. Chris | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 236 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jeremy, let me know what happens over on the forum you mentioned. I responded partially to the guy. I can't believe that he seemed to want to challenge us to discuss the sanctuary doctrine! Surely he knows better than to go there? Praise God.... (or On Fire 4 Jesus) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1382 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thank you, Chris. That was so well-said. (Thanks also to Francis Schaeffer!) I am more and more convinced that as we study the Bible, reality and truth become increasingly clear in many applications. For example, ideas such as "eternity" and "time" seem more understandable (although not comprehensively!) even though I'm not versed in astrophysics. Issues of compulsion, denial, displaced emotions, neurotic behavior, etc. are far less confusing even though I'm not trained in psychology. Etc. I'm not suggesting that we can substitute Bible reading for formal education, but I am convinced that when we want to know Truth, God reveals it. His revelation is His word, and He helps us apply the eternal principles of reality and truth that define all creation to the details of our lives. I am convinced that our surrender to Jesus whenever He lets us know we need to release something to Him is the key to finding pyschological, emotional, relational, and spiritual healing. Bottm line--I'm coming to believe that the crucial questions we all face are: "Do I really want to know the truth? Am I willing to act on truth when I see what it is?" In some divinely mysterious way, the Word of God reveals the truth to us--not just about God but also about ourselves and our circumstances. We learn what we need to surrender for God's healing touch by opening oursleves to the absolute truth of Scripture. Praise God for giving us His Word and the Holy Spirit to remove the veil from our eyes! Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 474 Registered: 1-2003 |
The question was asked a few posts back about why more young SDA's aren't searching the internet about the truth of Ellen White. I know for one I was terrified to question the prophet and the internet was promoted as being very dangerous...this seems to pervade SDAism. It was almost like I would be struck dead if I questioned her. Anyone else ever felt that way? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 284 Registered: 5-2002 |
and is it any wonder you felt this way? Consider the following statement attributed to Ellen White: "If you seek to turn aside the counsel of God to suit yourselves; if you lessen the confidence of God's people in the Testimonies He has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan and Abiram." (Testimonies, vol. 5: 66)." Korah and Dathan, if you will recall, were swallowed up by the earth for their rebellion against God. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 631 Registered: 7-2003 |
It honestly never really occurred to me to question EGW or to use the internet to research EGW. I stumbled upon internet sites exposing the problems with EGW quite by accident. I had always just believed that EGW was completely authoritative and fully inspired and never would have thought to question it. I went so far as to avoid setting other books on top of EGW books in my reverence for her. However, when I was about 30 I started reading whole books of the Bible, particularly the NT, in context and it kind of threw me for a loop. What I was reading appeared to contradict EGW and SDA doctrine. This drove me to the internet, but not research EGW, but rather to defend her. I was looking for an online resource where I could do key word searches in all of EGW's works. I was sure there had to be some explanation for the disparity between the plain word of what I was reading in the NT and what I had been taught as an SDA. So I pulled up a search engine and typed in "Ellen G. White". Oh my! I had no idea. My world was ripped apart. I quite literally wept uncontrollably in front of my monitor. I rocked back and forth and sobbed into my hands in a repetitive litany, "It was all a lie, it was all a lie, it was all a lie....î Despite my despair I couldn't quit reading. I was riveted even as everything I had ever known shifted and crumbled. I continued reading over several nights. In desperation I found the official EGW Estate website. Imagine my great relief when I found the answers to questions section designed to refute all the critics. Here it was! Here was my salvation! Here I would find the defense I needed to reestablish my world and get my feet back under me again. But it wasnít to be. As I read the "answers" I again began to weep. These were not answers at all. These werenít even denials. These were tantamount to admissions couched in obfuscation, quibbling, and spin. Indeed it had all been a lie, but as the acceptance of this irrefutable fact finally took hold, a ray of light sparked in my soul. If EGW and SDA doctrine was a lie, than the grace I had been reading about in the NT was truth that could be accepted. Like a mighty wave joy rushed in to wash away my despair and with it came a great excitement. I could have peace. I could feel secure. I could know I was saved. I could have a relationship with Christ. I could have eternal life without obtaining perfection in this life. Did others know about this? Did anyone else out there know the Bible said this? I didnít know, but I wanted to tell them! I was so excited I could barely keep my mouth shut! My new life in Christ had begun and my journey out of Adventism had started. Yes, the SDAs are right. The internet is indeed dangerous to their system of belief. When the Holy Spirit is leading a person seeking truth, access to information threatens every false religious system. Chris | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 125 Registered: 5-2004 |
having come that way not so long ago I can say that nobody I ever knew in Adventism, including myself, would have ever researched anything that might be contrary to Adventism. I was taught by the system that all you "bitter" people were out here and could be very misguiding. It took "stumbling" across Dirks site to make me curious to see if this was all real. in fact, in my haste to share my curious findings that weren't so bizarre as I'd been taught, but actually held so much truth that I couldn't get enough, I gave copies of many of the formers letters (Beems and Taylors) to my best friend, thinking she'd see the sincere, honest, people they were, and the truths they shared about their own journey would be unveiled to her as well. Well, delusioned as I was, I almost lost the friendship because of it...and I'm afraid it will remain strained forever. Now, I'm perceived as having been gullible enough to let Taylors bitterness impress me and sway me from the "truth". How anyone can get bitter from Greg I don't know. I find him so open...bitter is one of the farthest things. Especially since he expresses his love for his years in adventism, and the people still in it. As a 25 year old-only been out of the church almost a year; raised in a traditional SDA pastors home in conservative SDA midwest churches; educated in SDA schools; and encircled in a group of many other simularly raised adventist adults...I don't see things changing soon. From my graduating class, several have left the church because of inconsistencies they saw, or lifestyle changes they desired, however I am the only one still in an active relationship with God. The perception is that once you leave the church, you've left God. Hence, those in "rebellion", who aren't desiring to follow God closely at the moment in their lives...walk away, knowing that possibly later in their lives they will walk back in (the revolving door) and have a great "testimony". This is one of my biggest frustrations lately. The lack of interest in knowing what they believe. The concept that I can't even talk to my best friend about it...a person who I can talk candidly about anything else from personal issues to finances, to parents...but as far as "my new beliefs" (the cold term that gets thrown around alot now days) we can't barely even mention that. My collegues, whom I'm very close too, have come to view me as not really gone? if that makes any sense. It's like, at first after I let them know about our decision and where God was leading, they were shocked. And then, whenever I'd say anything on the topic of God, they'd show surprise. It's as if they couldn't grapple with how to handle me and my growing relationship with God, with me outside of the bonds of adventism. So now, they talk about others who've left the church, and this and that like I'm still part of the group and agreeing with them. Even though they know that I don't. So no, I don't see the general yound adventist population searching very much. I even work on an sda university campus and come into contact with 50+ students each day and from what I can tell, it's still all about traditional SDA values...for whatever that's worth. Well. Sorry for the long speel. I've been reading "Seeking a Sanctuary: Seventh-Day Adventism and the American Dream" by Malcolm Bull,Keith Lockhart. I'm finding the sociological background to the Adventist movement very insightful. Also, it's gotten me into thinking along those lines in analyzing the "group think" control of the church. The predictable pattern to rationalize everything by the denoms prestated perspective. And the fear of stepping outside of that. This is where you have to admit that adventism is very cultic. This belief that you bring on the wrath of God for questioning what you believe just doesn't make any sense. Not only that, but my parents are now holding me responsible for the fates of anyone who has, or might follow me (primarily my husband). Something that stood out to me in the last chapter I was reading is the adventist response to calamity. The church preaches all these signs and rumors about the end of time, but when an event actually happens, they pull back their feelings of impending judgement. It strikes me as if the push for marketing, ie in the Revelation seminars (like Chris I've sat through more than I like to count) focuses around these monstrous events that will bring on the end of the world. The calamities that will lead to the great and feared Sunday law. You don't know the years in school when we'd debate whether it would be the economy or a war that brought the change in religious freedom. But then, when theses things happen, they draw back...and I wonder if it's not for fear that they might not be wrong afterall, and/or that they're not ready. It always boils down to fear doesn't it? So thankful for Christ, the cross, and liberty in and with Him! | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 126 Registered: 5-2004 |
Chris, I've been typing my rather long winded post around several interruptions and saw that you slipped in too. You story of coming across the the site was almost exactly like mine. And the sobbing over the lie was my lot as well, though I hadn't read the gospel yet, and felt such depression as there was now, no hope. There might not even be a God. Once I went to my Bible, I saw all the things I'd never seen before. And a new life was given to me. In those days of searching, God touched me in a way that I'd never dreamed possible. Every time for a period of 2+ months, when I would struggle with comprehending Grace, or struggle over Sabbath issues, tithing issues, EGW issues, etc. (you've all been there), within a couple hours of when I'd breath those questions from my heart to God, or when I'd get stuck somewhere...He would bring, in the very next verse I read, the assurance, and many times the very answer I had been seeking. God is awesome...and HE is supreme over all His universe. Only He can take dead spirits, and revive them through His love and His Son...and bring us into fellowship with Him. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 716 Registered: 7-2003 |
Chris, that is a beautiful testimony. Had to mention that before I even read Esther's post. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 717 Registered: 7-2003 |
Beautiful posts as well, Esther. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 633 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thank you for the kind words Esther and Melissa. i kind of hate to admit how ignorant I was at that time. All those years in SDA doctrinal classes and yet this "grace thing" was a completely new mind blowing concept to me. I remember shortly after the events I related above racing down to the local Christian bookstore, going to the shelves, and scanning through the "G's" to see if there was anything with the word "Grace" on the spine. I had certainly sang the song "Amazing Grace", but I had never understood the word "grace" in the way that the Bible seemed to be using it in relations to salvation. If grace, in the sense the Bible seemed to use it, was true then there couldn't possibly be an investigative judgment of our works to see if we were "fit for heaven"! Did other Christians understand this grace-thing in the same way? I just didn't know. So I grabbed the first two books I saw, a book called "Grace Works" by Dudley somone-or-another (or maybe that was the last name), and "The Grace Awakening" by Charles Swindoll. Joy of joy!!! These books explained grace in exactly the same way I had come to understand it and even used the same texts I had so recently stumbled upon in the NT. I was elated! I was walking on air! I wanted to tell everyone I knew. I gave my FIL "Grace Awakening" because I was so sure he would find it as wonderful as I did. Imagine my suprise and disapointment when he returned it unread, uninterested. I came to realize shortly thereafter that not everyone was as excited about grace as I was. Chris | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 476 Registered: 1-2003 |
Believe it or not...God began my liberation in the SDA church. Some of the members had participated in the Weigh Down Workshop to lose weight, and boy had they! I thought one guy in particular had gotten cancer, he lost so much. Anyway, they bought the series and actually put it on after church on Saturday and I joined. (As a side note, it did work, I lost 22 pounds and was my high school weight!) Anyway, most of the bible verses used in this program were about food, and I can honestly say, I as an SDA had never seen these verses before ("Eat anything sold in the meatmarket...", "Don't let anyone judge you on what you eat or drink...") I couldn't believe it! That set the wheels turning in my mind. (As another side note, the SDA's had contacted the founder of this program to try to set her straight on the "health message" because she advocated that God gave us everything for food and nothing was unclean...they couldn't agree to this but she refused to change her program for them...how arrogant they were to even suggest it to her!) Anyway, I felt I lived a double life. I had the Me I showed to my SDA friends and family, and the real Me. I took off my jewelry in front of them, never admitted to eating meat or drinking beer, or going to movies...the list goes on. I was approaching my mid-30's and was terribly unhappy. (I was a double minded person, unstable in all I did!) It was August 2002 that I finally threw up my hands and told God I couldn't be perfect and I couldn't pretend I was any longer, and if this was Christianity, I was through with it. It was then He could help me, because I gave up on my own perfection/righteousness. Where to start? Martin Luther kept coming into my mind because I knew Ellen White approved of him...so I typed in a search for Ellen and Martin Luther, to read what she had said about him and Ohmygosh! I got an eyefull. I was trying to learn about righteousness by faith but got an education on Ellen and her deceitfulness. There were dozens of links to anti-SDA websites and I found the one with Patti Folkert's mother's story on it (All dressed up with no place to go)...I printed the whole thing and read it. I found Greg Taylor's manifesto and that really set me on my bible quest for truth...through his study and others, I studied myself out of bondage into the freedom of the Gospel. I look back at my old SDA bible and can't believe it. I used to underline parts of sentences, skip around, underline other-all to make it fit my theology instead of accepting it as it read in context. In the margin between Romans 5 and 6 (concerning Romans 6:20, which says "The ten commandments were given so that all could see the extent of their failure to obey God's law." Life Application bible) In the margin, I wrote: Impossible to keep? (big question mark) Impossible to keep without Jesus! ( I was still buying into the crap that supposedly Jesus died to give us a second chance to keep the commandments and that by His power we can keep them...so how come I kept falling short????) It was before I found out he was our substitute, not just an example! It has not been easy moving into grace and accepting the Gospel. I had never heard the Gospel in the SDA church. But praise God He liberated me from all that woman-made bondage!!! There were times I thought my family would fall apart over this and I was persecuted emotionally for it...but it was/is all worth it! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1384 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wow, what powerful posts, Chris, Esther, and Pheeki! Praise God! Every time an Adventist sees the truth about Jesus, it is a miracle as much as raising Lazarus from the dead. Our serious searching began in 1994. We started a Bible study with our Christian neighbors (Richard thought privately that eventually we would convince them to come to church with us! Ha!) and began studying whole books of the NT with them. Between that and the Sabbath School class we taught, in which we were studying the gospel of John, we began to realize that Adventism didn't square with the Bible. Simultaneously, Richard began to search the then-still-immature internet. He started bringing me stacks of downloaded stories, facts, Ellen quotes, etc. that were just astonishing. He and I would read those documents and just marvel that the church could have ignored her blatant dishonesty and perpetuated her "mythos". One of the remarkable things about that period of our lives (about two years' worth!) was that both of us had fairly light professional/extra-curricular responsibilities. We both had time to read, and we did--copiously. I realize that God arranged even our schedules so we could do the study necessary to be able to embrace the truth. Neither of us has had the discretionary time available that we had during those two or three years since we made our decision and decided to leave the church. I'll never forget the day Richard said to me, "I feel as if I've become a Christian for the first time," voicing exactly what I was feeling. The sense of excitement and hope and discovery were overwhelming. The really defining moment for us was the evening Richard prayed with me and the boys and asked God to take the spirit of Adventism out of our hearts and to put the Holy Spirit where it had been. From that moment I never had any more feelings of emotional attachment, fear, or doubt. Richard said that was the time when he knew he was born again. AS you said, Pheeki, it was not easy, and we've experienced a lot of fallout from family and friends, but it is all worth it! Jesus is more than enough--and I couldn't have known that before risking losing everything I was. He is so faithful! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 338 Registered: 10-2004  |
I also had a similar experience to yours', Chris and Esther. Although I knew that salvation was by grace and I had doubted EGW for awhile already, I also remember one evening, after reading Dirk's ellenwhite.org site, sobbing and saying that it was all a lie, everything I had been taught. It's amazing how similar our experiences can be! Jeremy | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 237 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have to praise God for the fact that he took my thoughts and dependency about EGW away instantly and completely. I had already been studying about Covenants and the light was dawning more and more clearly as I started to really comprehend the Holy Spirit and the true Gospel. Since I'd been a devoted follower of EGW, it had never crossed my mind to question her or read anything of a negative nature. I figured with all the new questions coming to me, surely the White Estate could help! They did all right! My first contact, they totally deceived me, which I found out about a month later. The next time I contacted them I had found out about the oysters and they had to admit it was true. That was it. I didn't need to go to the anti-EGW sites. The veil had been lifted. And, unlike many SDAs, my EGW books were well-read! It is such a miracle that I was the one to whom God could remove the veil. Praise God... |
