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Dd
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Post Number: 338
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aloha, Everyone!

My family and I just returned yesterday afternoon from a week away in Maui. What a blessing from our compassionate Heavenly Father!

All of you have been very busy while I was gone. It has taken me a long time to browse through all your comments over the last week. Many of your thoughts were some of the similar thoughts that I had running through my mind as I sat on the beach watching my darlings swim and run in delight. Isnít that remarkable?

Before we left, I went Costco shopping and looked for a book that would be fun to read on this trip. I usually look for the latest novel (Grisham, Shreve, Mitchard are a few of my favorite authors) but I was impressed to purchase ìSpeaking My Mindî by Tony Campolo. I had never read any of his previous books or heard very much about him but for some reason the front jacket intrigued me. It said, ìThe radical evangelical prophet tackles the tough issues Christians are afraid to face.î

As I was reading it I kept saying to my very politically conservative husband that I was surprised that I was reading it and even willing to consider some of his viewpoints. Campoloís political views are quite different from the ìReligious Rightî (as a result of my spiritual journey, though, I have found that some of my ìrightî leanings have modified a bit). AnywayÖI am not telling you this to start a political debate but to share with you something that he wrote.

In the chapter entitled, ìIs There a Second Chance For Those Who Die Without Christ?î, he debates the issue that God would judge people - including those who had never heard the gospel ñ on the basis of the light and truth about God that had been available to them. This led into a discussion of heaven and hell which I found interesting. He noted a British preacher, John Stott, who was causing quite a stir simply by making a case that the suffering of lost sinners might not be eternal ñ there is a hell, but after a time of suffering, the lost will fade into annihilation.

What stopped me in my reading were the following paragraphs, found on pages 85 and 86:

*******************************************************************
ìThe Seventh-Day Adventists (once treated as a cult, they now are very much bona fide members of the evangelical community), like John Stott, cannot believe that a just and loving God would send those He loves to everlasting punishmentÖî

ìThose who think that it is impossible to evangelize without posing the threat of hell have to give ground when dealing with the Seventh-Day Adventists, because these fellow Christians are intensely evangelistic and strongly missionary-minded. They work hard at winning converts and over the years, they have done so with high levels of effectiveness. They win converts by promising life in Christ for eternity, not by scaring people in the church with the threat of hell. They contend that we are to endeavor to win the world by holding up the beauty of Jesus and His love for us and that this will draw all men and women unto Himî

ìÖThe Seventh-Day Adventists may be on to something that generates more urgency for people to become Christian than all the fire-and-brimstone sermons that have ever been preached.î

**********************************************************************
It is obvious!! Mr. Campolo has never attended Revelation Seminars!!! There is nothing loving about Christ in those scare tactics!!!!

I donít know anything about Tony Campolo except from my reading of this book. Has anyone any more information regarding him? I feel something HAS to be done. Mr. Campolo has enough ìcloatî in the Christian community that these gross, inaccurate beliefs need to be pointed out to him!

What thoughts do any of you have?
Tdf
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Post Number: 40
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder if Mr. Compolo has read these statements by EGW:

ìHappiness is the result of holiness and conformity to the will of God. Those who would be saints in heaven MUST FIRST BE SAINTS UPON THE EARTH; for when we leave this earth, we shall take our character with us, and this will be simply taking with us some of the elements of heaven imparted to us through the righteousness of Christî (3 Selected Messages, pp. 190-192).

ìThose who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediatorî (The Great Controversy, page 425).

ìYour only safety is in coming to Christ, and ceasing from sin this very moment. The sweet voice of mercy is sounding in your ears today, but who can tell if it will sound tomorrow?" (Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1892).

"In the day of judgment many will be found wanting because they have been tested and proved of God and found unworthy of eternal life. God could not trust them in heaven. The decision will be made for eternity; he that is not faithful in that which is least cannot be entrusted with greater responsibilities. They will be judged by their works which have determined their character." (Publishing Ministry, p. 299).

For those of us who have tried living a life of perfection, these quotes are pretty chilling indeed!! Maybe they aren't fire and brimstone, but they demonstrate a God that's very hard for me to wrap my brain around. I am so glad the God that is presented in Scripture is very different than that!

Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 349
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mr. Campolo also obviously does not know that SDAs do not convert people to Jesus but to SDAism. Even the GC admitted at the 2000 GC Session that something like 96% of all of their evangelism efforts are targeted at CHRISTIANS!!!

And if they are no longer considered a cult but "now are very much bona fide members of the evangelical community" than says more about the "evangelical community" and how it has gone away from the Bible than it says about SDAism--because SDAism has not changed their beliefs!

Jeremy
Bob
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Post Number: 55
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Campolo is a popular speaker at SDA academic events. When my son graduated from La Sierra University a decade ago, Campolo was their commencement speaker.

As brilliant and popular as he is, somewhere along the way the SDAs succeeded in getting him to drink their Kool-Aid!
Thomas1
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Post Number: 163
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If Tony Campolo is a mainstream Evangelical Christian, then Billy Grahm would have to be considered a hard core right wing radical. They are just about poles apart. He is ultra liberal in his theology. I certainly would not take seriously his assessment.
Bmorgan
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Post Number: 14
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WAsn't he one of former President #42, of the USA closest "spiritual Advisors" along with Jesse Jackson, during the days of the President's improprieties?

Tony Campolo is sometimes a little out-of-step with some of the noteworthies in the Evangelical circles.
Bmorgan
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Post Number: 15
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wasn't he one of former US President #42, close "spiritual Advisors" along with Jesse Jackson during the days of the President's improprieties?

Tony Campolo is sometimes a little out-of-step with some of the noteworthies in the Evangelical circles.
Bmorgan
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Post Number: 16
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sorry, I double-dipped.
Bob
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Post Number: 56
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Campolo was one of Bill Clinton's personal spiritual advisors after the Lewinsky scandal.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1415
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Campolo did a weekend series of talks at LLU about a year ago (it might have been a little more). I realized then, from snatches I heard on the radio and from some who had heard him, that he did not "get" the reality of Adventism.

I also read some excerpts from a book by Steve Daily (formerly campus chaplain at La Sierra and now pastor of the Celebration church in Redlands). Tony Campolo wrote the forward (or some part of the book). In it he told of thinking SDAs were not mainstream until he met some at some meetings somewhere. (I'm sorry I'm foggy on the details.) At any rate, these Adventists were from the Loma Linda/La Sierra area, and they talked to him about the health reasons they were vegetarians (as opposed to following restrictive religious rules), they talked to him about the Sabbath, they talked to him about their missionary-mindedness, etc. In short, they gave Campolo the usual PR schtick about the lifestyle, community, mission-minded emphases of Adventism, and Campolo bought it.

He didn't buy it enough to become one, apparently, but enough to admire them greatly and consider them part of the Christian community.

As some of you said above, he clearly hasn't been told the real truth. I find it so frustrating--and now, apparently, he's even publishing propoganda about them.

Sigh.

The fact that he was a Clinton spiritual advisor says something, though...and if his theology is ultra liberal, that also says something.

Colleen
Bobalou
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Post Number: 4
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't say much about Tony Compolo. I have only read a little. My wife reads and enjoys some of his views. He is a breath of fresh air after being bombarded by SDA writers.
Speaking of his views on hell, I would like to get some help on the only hang up I have that is in common with SDA's. That is God allowing unrepentant sinners to burn perpetually in hell. I say wait a minute, that would be life eternal in hell. That wouldn't be a very nice place to spend eterity. Only the forgiven have the promise of life eternal. I attend a church that believes in eternal torment and I remain mute on the subject. I haven't wanted to be controversial. The more I read the more confusing it is. Most of Christianity has no problem with the doctrine. I am just a little fish in a big pond. I know that you will be easy on me.

Should switch this to another thread?
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 203
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have pondered that, studied the Scripture, read books from both points of view. I have decided, at least for now, that I can trust God in whatever He chooses to do. Perhaps later I will have a clearer understanding. But I no longer see it as a "test" of God's character.
Jan
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Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have heard Tony C. speak many times and enjoy his creative thinking, powerful speaking, and mission-mindedness! He always makes me want to leave my job and go work in an orphange in Haiti!

Personally I was thrilled that Bill C. was spending time with Dr.Campolo. What's wrong with that? BC also met with Bill Hybels dozens of times. Clearly Clinton was a seeker.

Hellfire? I'm a right-brained blond. And my logic is that if the penalty for sin is burning forever, Jesus would have had to burn forever.

Seems to me that the penalty for sin is death. But, Ric-B, I like your "trust" and "don't-worry- about-it" approach.
Dd
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Post Number: 341
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bob, welcome to the forum. I do not have the answer to your questions on hell. I agree with Rick - God can be trusted. I had a friend a few years ago who described to me what her understanding of hell was. Her little 5 year old son had become suddenly unable to walk. From there he lost control of bladder and bowel function and slowly was becoming paralyzed from his feet up to where he was slowly losing his ability to breath. After a diagnosis was found and he was back to his usual 5 year old antics, his mother told me that she was sure she had a glimpse of hell - life void of reason, comfort, hope.

That has stuck with me for a long time. I have a hard time reconciling God, who loved mankind so very much that He suffered and died for us, who would then bring an eternal fire to those who chose to not have Him in there lives.

To my limited view, I have to wonder about the "fire" as being metaphoric. The consequences of hell are a direct result of a person alienating themselves from God. We as Christians can see the results of those today who make this choice. Wouldn't hell be this same way of living only amplified - complete loneliness, ongoing and intense boredom, being consumed with anger and hatred, torturous guilt, an overwhelming state of anxiety...the list goes on and on...?

I may be way off...As Rick...perhaps later I will have a clearer understanding.
Dd
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Post Number: 342
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jan...you're thinking like me...look how tortured Jesus was on the cross being so alienated from His Father...
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1418
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jan, I think you're probably right about Jesus' punishment for sin--except that He did what only He can do: he broke the power of death by the power that was in Him.

I struggled with the idea of hell for several years, and I still don't have all the answers figured out. But as I read everything I could in the Bible about it, a couple of thoughts occurred to me. First, as Dd mentioned above, the "fires" of hell are probably a metaphor for something we have no way to understand in this life. Further, why would hell need to be a three-dimensional phenomenon like we know on this earth? It could be in a different dimension, a different "universe".

AFter all, our physical eternal life with Jesus will not be limited to three dimensions. I suspect that "fire" is not literal fire like we know it here. In fact, I suspect that Dd's friend might actually have some insight into the reality of hell.

Another thought that occurred to me is that if the "consequence" of accepting Jesus is eternal life, the consequence of rejecting Him would need to be equally significant in an opposite way. I think that the reason we have such a hard time with the idea of hell is that as Adventists we never took the wrath of God seriously. We always called Him a God of Love and Mercy, but we rejected the idea of His wrath. If His mercy is an eternal attribute of His, then His justice must also be eternal. Those who reject Jesus are rejecting His blood of the eternal covenant.

Another thought that came to me during that "wrestling time" was that perhaps our definition of "death" is limited as well. We think of "death" as the thing we see when someone dies: a lifeless body. Yet Paul clearly talks about preferring to go home and be with the Lord when he died, and Jesus used the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to make a point that people who don't accept truth based on the revelation of Scripture would not accept it even if one rose from the dead.

Jesus Himself is the one who teaches the most about hell.

All that being said, bottom line--I agree with Ric that I trust God for whatever the reality is. I have come to believe that there is some eternal consequence, however, for rejecting Jesus. If there weren't, God's justice would be less absolute than His mercy. And that also being said, there does seem to be some evidence that, just as there are rewards for the saved based on their work in the Spirit, there might also be degrees of punishment. It's too unclear in Scripture to make any dogmatic statement about it--but there are hints that such might be the case.

Again, I'll trust God for all that. And truly, if there is no hell, there's much less urgency for us to preach the gospel and pray for those who need Jesus. As an Adventist, I know that I always had the idea that if I didn't "make it", at least my punishment wouldn't last forever. Similarly, I didn't feel much urgency about people being "saved".

There's just so much we don't know for sure. Certainly eternal hell should not be a point of division among Christ followers. God, in His patience, continues to teach us wherever we land on this subject. We can trust him. And, like John Piper says, these difficult passages in the Bible are there for us to pray about, asking God to reveal to us the truth He wants us to know.

Just my thoughts.

Colleen
Susan_2
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The retired Lutheran pastor that I attend Bible studies from told us eternal hell=eternal seperation from Jesus. That is the eternal punishment. Seperation from Jesus FOREVER. We do not need to concern ourselves if the fire will actually burn the lost forever. God is a fair and just God. It is punishment enough to be eternally seperated from Jesus. I tried to share this with several SDA's I am near and dear to. They just wanted to aregue with me. It was an awful experience. SDA's do not like it when I let them know I do not have all the answers in and about the ways of GOd and I am confortable with that. The SDA's I know want an answer for every topic that could ever come up in a conversation. Still though, hell will be eternal seperation from Jesus and that is enough of an answer to satisfy me.
Dennis
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Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus spoke more often about hell than he did about heaven. Jesus' words could not be clearer in Matthew 25:46 (NASB): "These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into ETERNAL LIFE." The parallelism in this passage is too obvious to miss. Also, John states in Rev. 14:10-11 that the unrighteous "have no rest day and night" by being "tormented" while those in contrast "who die in the Lord...will rest from their labor" (verse 13), the wicked will know no rest.

Furthermore, hell's torment takes place "in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb" (Rev. 14:10). Although not many Christians conceive of Jesus being present in hell, he is there, as the word "Lamb" suggests. Without His lifegiving, sustaining presence, the unrighteous could not exist apart from him. Suicide is not an option--although they may desire it (exempla gratiae, in their asking for the rocks and mountains to fall on them). I conclude then that Rev. 14:9-11 teaches that hell entails eternal conscious torment for the lost. Eternal life consists of knowing the Father and the Son for ever (John 17:3); its converse, the second death, involves being deprived of God's fellowship for ever.

Indeed, the stakes are very high for us. Either loving or rejecting Jesus has eternal consequences of equal duration. We will all spend eternity somewhere. The big decision we must make is WHERE. Our loving God respects our choice. It would be most cruel and unloving of God to annihilate or zap us simply because we acted upon a choice that he enabled (empowered) us to make. Similarly, Satan and his angels NEVER have a good day. Their separation from God has been ongoing for untold ages.

Human beings are fashioned in the very image of God; therefore, to eliminate them would do violence to his nature. The alternative to annihilation is quarantine. And that is precisely what hell is. Annihilation does not constitute the ultimate punishment. Rather, annihilation would constitute the END of punishment. Indeed, the ungodly in hell would like for annihilation to be true. Guess what? It is Satan's preference as well.

Dennis J. Fischer
Melinda
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Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 4:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A little while ago we were visiting a church and the preacher talked about the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. (I almost put "parable" because SDA's always INSIST it's a parable. What is it, anyway?) The preacher spent some time on Luke 16:23-24 where it mentions getting his tongue cooled with water. And then he said he thought hell might be where you are punished for specific things. Like the Rich Man might have been particularly bad with his tongue and so his tongue had a burning sensation forever, etc. He used other texts and examples, too. Has anyone ever heard this theory before? I found this rather fascinating, particularly because I had never heard an entire sermon preached from the Rich Man and Lazarus. :-)

I am like many of you in that I haven't figured it all out but that's okay with me.

Melinda
Chris
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Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 6:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My break through on the issue of hell came about when I embarked on a systematic inductive study of the Gospels. I did not believe in hell. I didn't want to believe in hell. I painted God in the way I would like to see Him, all mercy and love without judgment, justice, or wrath.

Then I came face to face with the picture Jesus painted of a God that was equally merciful and just. Over and over I was struck by what Jesus had to say about hell. The strong language Jesus used regarding the wicked and hell would get him chased from the pulpit today. I had a choice to make. I could accept what Jesus had to say on the subject or I could continue to cling to my own notions of who God should be and how He should conduct Himself. Ultimately I found I had to bow to scripture and the teachings of Jesus.

For those struggling with this topic. I would encourage a thorough study of the four gospels. Not to study hell per se, but to drink in the balanced picture of God that Jesus reveals. It seems to me that it is most difficult to discard hell without discarding a good deal of what Jesus had to say.


Chris

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