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Message |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 78
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |     |
Colleen, this should make your heart even warmer -- As you and I both know from many hours spent studying scripture together in a group, grammar is one of the first and most important tools to use when doing inductive Bible study.
In fact, I would say that Christians who want to do serious Bible study have a spiritual obligation to brush up on the elements of grammar!
(Lest I be accused of being a legalist, I must add that I am sure Jesus still loves those who don't study grammar.)
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1472
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 7:08 pm: | |
Yes! A spiritual obligation to brush up on grammar! Yes!!
Colleen |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1575
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 9:20 pm: | |
I took linguestics in college. It was one of the two hardest classes I ever had to take. The other hardest class I took was introduction to meterrology (weather). Both classes were very interesting, hard but interesting. |
Weimarred
Registered user
Username: Weimarred
Post Number: 25
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 10:37 pm: | |
Iím not really sure about my memories, but I think I was taught that Jesus wasnít ěthereî, but that somehow He ěcame into beingî, and when He did, it made Satan jealous of the special relationship that Jesus had with God the Father. So this was what started the GC in the first place, the original heavenly sin, and Satan leading, what was it, one-third of the other angels in a revolt. Not sure what Jesus was doing before that. Maybe SDAs believe that Jesus was some sort of special incarnation of God, whatever thatís supposed to mean.
I didnít pull a whole lot out my D&R studies, except that I remember there are supposedly three advents of Jesus:
1st His birth
2nd When he comes in clouds of glory to take all the righteous to heaven
3rd A 1,000 years after the 2nd advent, he comes back to earth to establish the new heaven and the new earth.
Post 3rd advent, thereís supposedly a period of 100 years when everyone who has ever lived on the earth is alive, the saved in the city, and the wicked plotting a final storming of the New Jerusalem, and a conquering of God. Then God shows a historical panorama in the sky, and every person comes to realize the justice of God, and that is when ěevery knee shall bendî, etc. Then Satan rises and attempts one last desperate rally, and, shazzam, Godís consuming fire wipes out everything, except the New Jerusalem, of course.
Looking back, Iím struck at how I really donít know where my understanding of the Bible ends, and where my EGW indoctrination begins.
Oh, and Colleen, I hope you can forgive both my semantic and grammatical sins!
Tom
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Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 8:12 am: | |
Tom,
As I read your post above, the thoughts came to my mind that what you wrote is what I learned also about D & R. I needed someone to jog my memmory. I used to get "A"s and passed all my Bible tests, then immediately forgot all that I learned until the next test, at least in Bible. It scared me to study and read that stuff. It has been so long since I have even talked about it. Thank God I do not have to remember it. All I need to remember is Jesus sacrifice for me, that he loves me and wants my love in return. I can never pay him back for what he did and he knows that. He is awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1486
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 10:33 pm: | |
Tom, Believe me, when I don't have to sit with a red pen in my hand, I often overlook and/or just don't see whatever semantic/grammatical sins might be there! So, I've seen nothing to forgive!
Remembering my own D&R class in college, I was quite excited to take it, thinking I'd finally clear up the confusion I felt whenever I tried to understand the 2300 days, the IJ, etc. Not many days into the class, however, I discovered that it was just as confusing as all ny previous teachers had made it seem.
I finally realize that it's impossible to make a completely fabricated doctrine sound clear and sensible. No wonder I was confused--I'm sure my teachers were also.
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 217
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 5:58 pm: | |
This grew out of some emails and some discussions on CARM. I thought that I would share it here for some feedback/suggestions for strengthing the argument.
I would like to provide a brief description of just how false the IJ doctrine is when viewed with a little more detail. Not only are key elements of the doctrine based on assumptions that can not be verified from Scripture, but the doctrine results in salvation coming from the creature rather than the creator. I will start with a quick overview of the key points of the IJ doctrine:
1) Satan has charged God with being unfair and with creating a law that can not be kept.
2) God must be vindicated of these charges in front of the angels and people from planets that have never sinned.
3) In order to be vindicated, God must prove that His law can be kept and that He is fair.
4) Jesus came in sinful flesh to provide our example of how to keep the law.
5) A group of people in the final days will keep the law just as completely as Jesus did and thereby provide the final answer to Satan's charge and fully vindicate God in front of the universe.
Each of these points is dependent upon all other points in order for the doctrine to be true, so a failure in even one of these points refutes the doctrine. However there are serious weaknesses in each of the points.
There is no Scriptural account of Satan bringing either of these charges (that God is unfair and that His law can not be kept) against God. This is an assumption that is at the heart of the SDA theological system of beliefs. Consider for a minute that all of the remainder of the IJ is dependent upon this one point. According to SDA doctrine the entire process of vindicating God is required to refute this charge. Yet this charge is not recorded anywhere in Scripture.
SDAs base the idea that God must be vindicated of these charges on Job1:6-12 and Ezekiel 36:23. However the text in Job gives no indication that God must vindicate anything about Himself. And the text in Ezekiel provides no evidence about God vindicating His name against any charges brought by Satan. There is nothing in either of these verses, or any of Scripture, about God vindicating His name because of claims that His law can not be kept. There is nothing in these texts, or anywhere else in Scripture, about vindicating God's name to the angels and the unfallen people of other planets.
But it is the final points that deny the true Gospel. The life, death and resurrection of Christ are no longer the means by which Satan is defeated and vanquished. Instead it is the perfect lives of mortal men following the example of Christ that is necessary for the defeat. Since the defeat of Satan and of sin is accomplished by mortal men rather than by Christ, salvation and eternal life is the results of the lives of men rather than the death of Jesus.
How different is this from the proclamation of the Gospel in Romans 5:5-19. Paul is abundantly clear in this chapter that Jesus accomplished all this is needed to complete the reconciliation of God and man.
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Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1194
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 7:21 pm: | |
You can quote texts like Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast.
I Cor 6:2 Are you not aware that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you not competent to be judges of minor matters. 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels, not to mention affairs of this life.
Heb 1:3..And when He had effected our cleansing from sin, He took His seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
See Heb 1:13, Heb 8:1, Heb 10:12. The note in my Bible, NIV, says Being seated at God's right hand indicates that Christ is actively ruling with God as Lord over all. He is not in any temple.
Jesus, at his death and resurrection, is not judging anyone, He is seated at God's right side.
There are more texts like these if these help.
I cannot find some other texts that may help, but I will look for them.
All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Can't remember the text.
Gal 2:20-21
This is good for me as I have to search the scriptures for the text I want.
I am praying for you Ric_b.
God, Give Ric the words to write as he answers on the internet site. You promise you will do that. So I thank you for helping Ric right now.
God is awesome and will not fail you.
Diana
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Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 438
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 8:04 pm: | |
Very good post, Ric. The IJ/GC really does switch it around from God saving us to us saving God! It is one of the most blasphemous doctrines ever started by satan.
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1589
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 9:04 pm: | |
So true. The idea that the creature will vindicate the Creator--the judged will exonerate the Judge. It's just blasphemy.
Great post, Ric.
Colleen |
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