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Agapetos
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Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 6:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Recently I've been having an ongoing discussion at the website of my former local mission director (I used to be an SDA student missionary in Osaka, Japan, where I now also live). My former director is of the old school of Adventist conservatism, that views early Adventism (things prior to James White's death) as more pure than the later stuff.

The topic was Unconditional Love, which he views as heresy.

I mentioned to him that depending on our background, some of us have a hard time saying, "God is love" without adding a "but" or "if" to the end of it. "God is love IF..." or "God is love, BUT...". I was raised learning the commandments before I ever heard God's nature was love. I learned conditional love before I learned that God IS love. So it's taken awhile for me to really let Him explain Himself. I kept inserting "but" and "if", but He said it clearly and sent His Son to prove it...

I thought I'd throw that out here... maybe you, like me, were raised learning the 10 commandments first before you learned that God is love. "God is love" was just a kind of bumper sticker or phrase to post somewhere around the room.

I didn't realize how deep this was inside of me until recently. I left Adventism over two years ago and have learned a lot in Christ and the Holy Spirit and the New Covenant. I've been through a lot of healing prayer and soaking in God's love & presence. But part of me didn't really know at a deep, heart level... and I'm learning all over again. It's like the Lord opened up a part of me that was still a child, and like a child I'm asking God, "Is it true? Do You really love me that way?" Funny, how much correct theology one can know (and argue on behalf of) and yet still have a doubt weakening under the surface. But you know, it's wonderful to realize that you *don't* know! Then you get to wait on Daddy again and let Him explain His love to a deep part of you that had been shadowed, a place that was hidden from His warm love.

By the way, I recommend a book called "The Lost Secret of the New Covenant" by Malcolm Smith which points out that God loves us not because we obey Him and serve Him, but that He loves us because He IS love. And that the Gospel is not based on "if" and "then" (if you obey, then you'll be loved & saved), but it is "because" and "therefore"... because He has died (because He loved us!), therefore we who believe are saved. (^_^)
Tdf
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Post Number: 46
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Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 6:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agapetos,

I appreciate your post. When I was explaining to my parents why my wife and I had decided that the Adventist Church was not the right place for our family, I explained that we had been forever changed through our connection with Christ and the understanding that we can be assured of salvation today through Christ's free gift. My mother responded that she was sad that, after all of these years, I was still barely able to handle the milk of the gospel and that I had not been able to partake of the meat. I asked her what the meat was. She said that the meat was obedience to the law of God? I asked her, "So does that mean that the ten commandments are the meat and the cross is the milk--doesn't that seem a little backward?" She couldn't understand what I was talking about. Until recently I, like you, always saw God's love as icing on the cake and not nearly as important as "understanding truth." I now believe that doctrine is no where near as important as embracing Christ and understanding salvation. For me, this is the meat. It still amazes me how backwards I was while I was still SDA!
Melissa
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Post Number: 733
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Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 7:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

TDF, my son's SDA father says the same things as your mother. I just couldn't believe he considered the gospel (the life, death, resurrection) of Christ to be baby food. But once I understood his perspective, it helped understand why little else would be reconciled in the relationship. To him, the "gospel" is something to move beyond, to me it is the end goal. I still am amazed by the gospel and what it means for my life. I think that is one of the hardest things for the non-SDA to really understand about the SDA.... It's not articulated very plainly, but that is what it all boils down to.... it seems to me anyway.
Praisegod
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Post Number: 249
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Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 8:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What you're hitting upon here is the roots of why Adventism can be considered "spiritual abuse." It's quite interesting to do an internet search on the topic.

By having it put backwards for so many years, many of us have to allow the Holy Spirit to completely rewire our brains. We can cognitively know we've been wrong yet incidents occur that remind us of our roots.

I'm just so thankful for the veil being removed!

Praise God...
Susan_2
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Post Number: 1547
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Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 9:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speeking of the gosple-I think some SDA's just don't understand the term, "the gosple". I say this because in my community we have a Christian Women's Association. Each month the women in the orginaziation has it's meeting at a different church. The members are from a vast array of denominations and have the same goals, to best serve the community and Christian fellowship. They totally support a home for pregnant ladies who have nowhere else to turn, they totally support a local foodbank, there are other things also they partake in that serves the community at large. I know one devout SDA lady who attends each and every meeting of the Christian Women. I ran into this SDA lady recently and I remarked to her how nice and pretty she looked. She said she was on her way to the monthly CW meeting. I told her I was surprised that she went because it was my observation that usually SDA's don't get involved with the other churches and the inter-denominational outreaches. She said with a gasp in her voice that she attends the CW's functions so she can wittness to these ladies. I said "What do you wittness to them? They are already Christian." She said, "The gosple." I said, "The gosple? I don't understand what you mean. Tell me." She said, "Well, all threy have is Jesus. I wittness to them the rest of the gosple." Confused I asked her what the 'rest of the gosple' is and she told me, "The truth of the Sabbath and the health message." I was dumbstruck.
Melissa
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Post Number: 740
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Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 9:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't that what they call "the everlasting gospel" mentioned in Revelation, (which somehow makes it okay to have a "new" gospel).... the Jesus, Sabbath, health gospel?

another term for our dictionary??
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1443
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point, Melissa--I've made a note of it.

Not only do we continue to have to have our brains rewired for years after leaving, whenever the commandments are part of our authority, we never learn to do the demanding but transforming work of living by the Spirit.

I'm reading a wonderful book by Gary Thomas entitled "Authentic Faith" (subtitled The Power of a Fire-Tested Life). It is a wonderful book. (I just have to mention that Richard and I attended a marriage seminar conducted by Gary Thomas this weekend at our church entitled "Sacred Marriage". If you ever get a chance to attend a seminar by Gary Thomas, don't miss it. There was NO "How-to" stuff. The focus was all about allowing God to make you holy by teaching you to love Him most, thus transforming you to love others for God's sake. Perhaps the most provacative statment he made was this:

"It's not hard to learn to think of God as your Father. He is, and we should. But have you ever thought of Him as your Father-in-law? Have you ever thought of Him asking you, 'How are you treating my daughter/son?'"

The seminar was a wonderful way to spend our 16th anniversary, by the way!)

Back to the point: living by the Spirit is allowing God to make us un-self-centered, to make us more concerned about the welfare of His people and His work than about oursleves. Paul is a great example. As long as we keep measuring ourselves by the law, the focus is still on oursleves. Talk about not being able to move into the meat of the gospel!!

Colleen
Bb
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Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agapetos, I would like to ask you or anyone else...if historic adventists believe that the message was more "pure" before James White's death, what do they do with her "revelations" after his death? Didn't some of them change, like the belief in the trinity? Did they feel that she was uninspired after his death? How can they leave out her later stuff?
Melinda
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Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agapetos,

When I was first studying and questioning the SDA beliefs, I went to our local Barnes and Noble store. I was browsing through the books and saw "The Lost Secret of the New Covenant" by Malcolm Smith and bought it. It really helped me a lot.

The following Sabbath we were at some friend's house and they also had that book. I asked them about it and they said they were just browsing through the book section at Barnes and Noble and saw it and bought it. These good friends of ours are still SDA's, but only because they can't quite let go of the Sabbath. I believe that the Holy Spirit is really leading them on their own journey and it's exciting to watch.

I don't believe it was coincidence that we both bought the same book, the same week, in the same way!

Melinda
Agapetos
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Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melinda, that's great! God really is good. Smith didn't tackle the Sabbath issue but rather lays the foundation of the Covenant, of God's unconditional love, His "hesed" faithfulness & covenant love. You know, once you let God lay that foundation in you---and I might be on a limb here---it doesn't matter if you keep the Sabbath of your old tradition or not. That's why Paul didn't directly make the Jews of Rome leave it -- he trusted that God had laid the foundation (His Son) in them. I've had to really let God be Himself & do His stuff in some good friends of mine who've chosen to remain inside SDA (see Cultural Adventism, http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/2585.html?1105604033 ). And He really is moving in them and among them, and it's great to watch.

*****

Bb - you know, we've all got blind spots and contradictions in our personal belief systems. It's actually okay to have paradoxes as long as we willingly surrender them to God. Like the Trinity and predestination: I can't explain them, but I know they don't make human sense and trust God's knowledge and in Him instead of in my understanding.

As for historic Adventists, well, it still mystifies me in certain ways. But I remember when I was among them and an amateur one myself, I was also able to focus so narrowly on a certain area of expertise and kind of not see everything outside of it. My friend believes that the "later" EGW stuff was tainted by Uriah Smith, who became head of the publishing house after James White died.

There was a feeling of fervor, a movement and kind of energy in the early Adventism. Studying it can be exciting because it feels like you're onto something, like you're hot on the trail of discovering *that thing* that was missed, that key, that revelation that is *it* and that will... Well, that will do what? You know, when I was hot on the trail, I don't quite remember what I expected. Favor with God? Miracles? Latter Rain? The problem is when you don't realize that your object is God. Your object becomes "a truth" or something else. God was really awesome in leading me to Him Himself and really giving me a sense of dissatisfaction with "messages". Most historic Adventists get stuck at "messages"... the 2300 days, the 1888 message, the Little Flock, not to mention the "health" message and all the later ones, etc.

And you know, the whole time I was in that, I had no idea that God loved me unconditionally right now, right at that time. I was in such hot pursuit of something I couldn't see the loving smile on His face. Somehow it was if we were chasing a missing commandment, a hidden knowledge that once found, would either make everything more clear to us or bring God's end-time blessing on us.

I think that when we're raised on commandments, perhaps we all come to that point --- the point where we think we understand what ought not to be done (and of course don't do it), and what to do (Sabbath), and we feel like something's missing. We didn't feel quite right with God, so we were in pursuit... we were sure we had the truth, but there was something missing and we were in pursuit of it, because of course once we found it and could *do* it (or not do it), then we'd be okay. Our souls really couldn't rest.

To my friend I wrote:

I will be the first to admit that such love as God's does not make sense in human terms. In fact, it looks foolish. It has paradoxes, just like the Trinity. At some point each of us, when considering His love, must fall down and ask, "God, could You really love me like that? It's not what I do that saves me? Could I really be safe in Your hand as Jesus said?" It's hard to believe you can be loved that way by anyone.

And then on top of it comes the fear of being *out* of that love by something you might do later... you're afraid of losing approval, so you strive to stay inside of approval, fearful that one wrong turn might disqualify you and you would no longer be accepted.

You want to hold onto some list of things you can do to stay approved... you feel like, "If I can do this, I know I'll be safe (saved)." You need some kind of thing you can do to be your assurance. But then there comes a time when His voice whispers inside you, "I want you to trust Me, not your works."

Although you're still afraid that you'll somehow abuse His grace tomorrow and somehow fall out of His approval, you take that step of trusting Him to hold onto you (it's His hold of you that saves you, not your hold of Him). You take that step of trusting in His Spirit to reveal to you every step of the way where you need to turn, step, stop, and learn how to love. And as you go, you learn that He is faithful, and it's His faithfulness that saves us... not only finally in the end, but every step of each day.
Susan_2
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Post Number: 1566
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Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mt mom has a big huge framed poster of the 10 commandments hanging on her wall. I bought her a beautiful georgeous little plaque that says, "This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoyce and be glad in it." It is put away in a drawer somewhere. (I really don't know how come I felt like sharing that with you all but I did.)
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1462
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Agapetos, that searching for "something" is a perfect description of life before discovering Jesus and His finished work for me.

I remember during the years Richard and I were studying the New Testament with our Christian neighbors (and discovering that the Bible said far different things than I had thought it did!) that for the first time I realized I was not axiously trying to prepare for an uncertain future or frantically trying to make amends for the past.

Previously I had never been able to enjoy the present, much less allow myself just to "be" in it. I distinctly remember sitting in our Bible studies and realizing that God was giving me "Today" (sounds like Hebrews, doesn't it?!). It was amazing.

Jesus has put Himself in that anxious, restless place that used to consume me.

Colleen
Tracey
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Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

C is physically restless and piddles a lot. I wonder if it's the same reason as how you used to be Colleen.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 8:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It sounds familiar, Tracey. I have known people who were restless, going from one activity to another, looking for something to occupy their minds or satisfy them. One person in particular of whom I'm thinking behaved this way habitually, much as you describe C. On the few occasions this person would decide to spend time in the Bible and pray, the restlessness would decrease and there would be a much more positive attitude about life in general.

Mostly, though, this person didn't spend time in the word and insisted on his/her "right" to do what they wished when they wished. (Sorry about the mixing of singular/plural.)

That restlessness is usually a marker for me. When I see a person who is restless and "feels" habitually dissatisfied or bored, I know that there is a spiritual component (usually) at work. I've seen it often.

I'm not talking about genuine ADHD. I'm talking about a bored, habitual restlessness that is never quite content.

Colleen
Seekr777
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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 9:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracey please excuse the mental image I had when I read your comment, "C is physically restless and piddles a lot. I wonder if it's the same reason as how you used to be Colleen."

I've worked around little kids at times and "piddle" had a totally different conotation. :-)

When I read Colleen's response things became clear as to meaning.

Richard
Tracey
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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL! Thankfully, I haven't seen signs of little piddles anywhere. Is that something I should also watch for??? : )
Agapetos
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 12:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Susan_2!

You wrote:

*****

My mom has a big huge framed poster of the 10 commandments hanging on her wall. I bought her a beautiful georgeous little plaque that says, "This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it." It is put away in a drawer somewhere. (I really don't know how come I felt like sharing that with you all but I did.)

*****

I thought I'd mention something that the Lord shocked me with a couple years ago when I thought about that song. Do you know that song?

"This is the day
This is the day
That the Lord has made
That the Lord has made
I will rejoice
I will rejoice
And be glad in it
And be glad in it"

I grew up singing that song in Sabbath schools and of course it seemed like it was about the good news of the Sabbath day. It comes from Psalm 118:24. There is a second verse to the song that says, "Jesus is the way ... that the Lord has made ... I will rejoice ... and be glad in Him." But the main thing was "This is the day".

Imagine my surprise when I ran across the verse one day in Psalms 118 and read the verses right before it:

"The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes." (Ps. 118:22-23)

Whoa! That's the verse Jesus said about Himself and that Peter said was about Jesus! (Matt.21:42 & 1 Pet.2:7)

Suddenly I looked at the context of that song's verse ("this is the day") and instantly found that the verse is not about the Sabbath day *at all*! It's all about Jesus' victory for us!

My friend Hazel summed it up and wrote:

*****

The words of Psalm 118 have become the theme song of my life and I pray they become the theme song of your life, too, as you see God bringing back His captive children from the land of the enemy.

"Shouts of joy and victory resound in the tents of the righteous: 'The Lord's right hand has done mighty things! The Lord's right hand is lifted high; the Lord's right hand has done mighty things!' I will not die but live, and will proclaim what the Lord has done... Open for me the gates of righteousness; I will enter and give thanks to the Lord... The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes. This is the day that the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it." (Psalm 118:15-24)

The message of this psalm is prophesying about the Capstone--Jesus Christ, whom the builders rejected, but who has now become our salvation. It is His victory that we rejoice in. It is His work of salvation that is marvelous in our eyes. We will not die but live because He tells us, "Because I live, you also will live" (Jn. 14:19). Paul reminds us of the following words of Christ spoken through the prophet Isaiah, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and *in the day of salvation* I helped you. I tell you, *now is the time* of God's favor, *now is the day* of salvation" (2 Cor. 6:2). "*Today* if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts" (Heb. 4:7). Let us rejoice in the day that Jesus Christ became our righteousness. Let us be glad in Him!

*****

It's so cool that God takes even these songs that we thought were about the Sabbath day and says, "No, it's about My Son." The joy of that psalm was because the author foresaw the Day --- the Day when the Capstone would become our Salvation. Jesus is sooooooo good! It's been finished in Him -- which is why Paul changed Isaiah's tense from future to past in 2 Corinthians, because he knew it had been done, the Capstone had been laid on the cross.

"In the time of My favor I heard you; in the day of salvation I helped you."

Bless you!
In His love,
Ramone
Esther
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 6:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone,
Thank you for sharing that. I found myself humming that song the other day and thinking of the adventist background I had. But this is beautiful!
Melissa
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Post Number: 753
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 6:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We have sung that song as non-SDA...and I always thought it was saying each day is a new day to serve God and praise him. I certainly never would have thought it only appropriate for Saturday singing. :-)

Funny how perspective changes a message.
Agapetos
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 7:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, I think I'm going to post that in a new thread, since it's a different topic and I think most of us that came from SDA thought of that song in that way, you know? (But I know it's not an SDA song, and that the meaning was like Melissa said)
Jeremy
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Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bb wrote:


quote:

Agapetos, I would like to ask you or anyone else...if historic adventists believe that the message was more "pure" before James White's death, what do they do with her "revelations" after his death? Didn't some of them change, like the belief in the trinity? Did they feel that she was uninspired after his death? How can they leave out her later stuff?




Actually, Ellen never accepted the doctrine of the Trinity. The SDA church did not put it in their official beliefs until long after her death. She never once condemned the SDA church's anti-trinitarian position or told them to change it. She did happen to write something in Desire of Ages (probably happened to copy it!) that made it sound like Jesus was fully God and eternal. DA was published in the 1890s I believe. Some people think that the SDA church eventually changed their position because of the DA statements. But she continued to write anti-trinitarian statements well into the 1900s, including many statements that Jesus was an angel.

It is simply a myth (which probably originated with Adventist apologists) that EGW "progressed" into the Trinity doctrine later in her life, and that she "progressed" into the Gospel in her later writings. It is just myths. If you look at her writings and the dates, you will see that EGW taught the same false gospel of salvation by works and salvation by sinless perfection her whole life and that she wrote anti-trinitarian statements her whole life!

Jeremy
Colleentinker
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Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And the confusion continues to this day. Adventist theologians are not agreed upon the definition of the Trinity. In spite of the fundamental believe that states the Trinity, the actual beliefs of SDA theologians and intellectuals is not close to consistent.

Where does that leave the laity?---Confused.

Colleen

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