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Heretic
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Username: Heretic

Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can relate to so many of your experiences discussed in this thread having spent 21 years in the SDA educational system from first grade all the way through graduate school via 2 SDA universities. Chris and Esther, glad to see a couple of other AUPT alumni represented here!

The sheer travesty here is that one can go that far through a "Christian" system yet never really come to understand why we should love Jesus. I mean I knew that Jesus died for our sins so that we could go to heaven but I also knew that it really didn't matter unless we lived up to the Adventist doctrines as outlined by EGW, with the most important of all these of course being the Sabbath. So I had a hard time convincing myself that I really loved Jesus because so much of my eternal destiny depended on myself. I remember feeling this way for most of my childhood, but felt too stupid to ask anyone within my school or church or even my home for it seemed like such a basic tenet that no one raised in "The Truth" should have to ask, especially by the time Academy rolled around. And as I've been discovering recently, I wasn't the only one with these questions, not by a long shot!

Praise God that I can now step back and see the perfect beauty of Grace and the awesome magnitude of what Christ did for me and for us all.

Heretic
Chris
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Post Number: 675
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Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're so right Heretic. Under the SDA system it was as if Jesus died to give us the theoretical opportunity to merit salvation. It was as if we should be thankful that He gave us the opportunity to try. I had a hard time feeling thankful for something that seemed demonstrably impossible. I was trying, but I wasn't coming anywhere within waving distance of being ready to pass the investigative judgment proving I was "fit for Heaven" (let alone achieve the perfection necessary to stand before a Holy God in the last days without a mediator). It was just pretty hard to have a lot of joy about the whole dismal situation.

Praise God that our salvation is His work and not ours! Praise God that our salvation is an accomplished fact rather than a theoretical possiblity! Praise God that we can KNOW we are saved and that we do not come under judgment for salvation! Praise God for delivering us from doubt and fear!

Chris
Heretic
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Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris,

"...the theoretical opportunity to merit salvation." I couldn't have said it any better than that.

What was so frustrating to me was that I really had no idea if MY Sabbath-keeping was really the correct way of Sabbath-keeping. It seemed like everyone, every family had a different standard so then who was right? Even as a kid, I wasn't sure of our fate because my family and I failed to adhere to ALL of EGW's Sabbath do's and don't's. We did unforgivable things like go out to eat after church once in a while, eat (clean) meat, and swim, while other families in our church would never dream of staining the Sabbath in that way. I think that's one reason a sizeable number of folks leave the church because they fall short of perfection and lose hope. Some of them who I've known have seemed so turned off by the whole experience that they not only turned their backs on SDAism but ANY religion. How sad is that? Any SDA who tells you that the focus of the denomination is Jesus is deluded.
Weimarred
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Post Number: 37
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Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

As a postscript, when I joined the Army, I could have joined as a Private First Class instead of joining as just a Private... if my college classes had been at an accredited college!

Just another "baggage" agrevation I experienced as a post-Adventist!

Glad to hear Weimar is finally seeking accreditation. Wonder if that applies to the academy as well.

Tom
Weimarred
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Post Number: 40
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Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heretic, and all,

I personally feel that, in the end, an education, regardless of the source, aught to be strictly based on the logical aspects of our daily lives. There are other infinitely more appropriate places to introduce and guide a child in his walk with God.

I hate to sound harsh, but if a teenager walks away from a church, any church, it's just possible that the parents failed in their duties, or that the doctrine was a failure to begin with. Or, as in my case, the teenager simply rebelled. Teenagers have been know to do that :-)

Heretic, these presenters you discussed in your introductory post, I got the same impression that you did. To me it sounded something like this: "We can't keep teenagers in the church because we're failing from the pulpit, so we're putting the onus on you educators to indoctrinate them while they're still impressionable."

Do these people think about what they're really saying? I GUESS NOT!

Tom
Esther
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 5:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's true. I don't think there is any real logical thought allowed when you subscribe to Adventist theology or, as many of us, are raised to subscribe to the system without actully ever thinking about it. It hits me with every SDA article I read, the posts of the SDA regulars on the O'Ffill forum, and in general conversations with SDA's. I think someone here actually said this awhile ago, but Adventism as a system that exists to define rules, to define how to bend them. And then, throw in that it's the "only way of salvation" and you have people who are using their own interpretations to judge everyone elses actions, against the ultimate rule of perfection. At our study last night we actually discussed this and we were all in awe that we had never questioned the logic before.

Praise God for His salvation and His Spirit of truth!
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1514
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with all of you re: the lack of logic and comparative thinking in Adventism. And yet, it's to be expected that people without regenerated hearts would be unable actually to compare their own beliefs with the Bible. They end up seeing the Bible as unreliable.

My mom recently told me that she saw some old friends who come to the Loma Linda area once a year. Mom showed them Proclamation magazine. They looked through it and asked why Richard and I left the church. Mom said it was because we found that Ellen White said many things that disagreed with the Bible.

Whereupon the man (who prides himself on his academic accomplishments, etc.) said, "Well, I've read the Bible through 24 times, and I've never found one thing that disagrees with Ellen White."

OK.

If we don't accept the Bible as the innerrant ground of truth, we have absolutely nothing to stand on. If the Bible is negotiable as a "culturally biased" document or as a hodge-podge of ancient writings betraying certain people's political motivations, then reality truly IS relative.

It's only when we decide to surender our doubts to Jesus that we can begin to read the Bible as the Holy Spirit's carefully crafted message to us. It's only when we're born again and alive with the Spirit that we recognize the Spirit in the words of Scripture. I am still astonished at how the Bible fits together as a seamless whole when I accept it as God's word.

It no longer seems contradictory or full of dichotomies. What I'm finding is that reality is much bigger than I imagined, and God is much more COMPLETE than I ever envisaged Him to be. He is truly eternally just and merciful, transcendent and immanent, omnipresent and personal, judging and saving, etc. He vindicates Himself, and He judges evil while also being patient so none will be lost.

But it's only the Holy Spirit who can make the Bible make that kind of sense. Also, the Holy Spirit is the only way to explain that for two millennia, Christ-followers have been reading Scripture and coming up with the same conclusions about the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and humanity.

Praise God for His Spirit of truth in us, to quote Esther above!

Colleen
Heretic
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My, but the indoctrination does start young, doesnít it?

My son, who just turned 6 last week, has been doing Kindergarten at home this year with my wife, using the Home Study International curriculum. The other day (after I started this thread, ironically), my wife told me that there was a long section coming up in the Bible class covering SDA church history and thought I should take a look at it. It turns out to be 22 lessons beginning with Ellen Harmon getting hit with the rock right on through to the second coming of Jesus. It talks all about the Millerite Movement and the Great Disappointment, Ellenís supernatural powers during her visions, how Joseph Bates doubted her then was convinced of her prophetic gift when he witnessed one of her visions, the Investigative Judgement, the tests of a true prophet, tithing, the Sabbath is the Seal of God, the health message, and state of the dead. I thought some of you may be interested to see what HSI is wanting to teach 5 and 6 year olds so here are a few choice quotes gleaned from the 22 lessons. We're talking about a month of Bible classes.

Lesson 8: Jesus Is The Heavenly Judge:
This picks up just after Hiram Edson had his vision in the cornfield. ìNow the people started studying their Bibles again. They found that there was a sanctuary in heaven. It was the sanctuary in heaven that was to be cleansed. As they studied more, they found that on October 22, 1844, Jesus began a special work of cleansing the sanctuary. The book of life was opened, and all the people whose names are written there were judged...After all the dead people have been judged, it will be time to start on the records of those who were alive...It was a big comfort to Adventists to know something important had happened on October 22, but it had not happened on this earth.î

Lesson 10: God Talks to Man:
ìWhen the prophet Daniel had a vision, the Bible says there was no breath in him. Ellen didnít have breath either when she was having a vision. Her heart beat, but she was not breathing.î

Lesson 12: How to Know a True Prophet:
ìDaniel (10:17) says when a prophet is in vision he has no strength and no breath. Another verse (10:19) says the angel gave special strength to the prophet...Suddenly she would become strong as a the angel of God gave her new strength to do unusual things...Another time, Ellen held a heavy Bible during a vision. For more than half an hour she held the big Bible with her left hand. All the people could see that it was a miracle from God.î

Lesson 13: Tithes and Offerings to God:
ìThe Bible says (Mal. 3:8) it is robbing God if we keep tithe money for ourselves. I surely donít want to steal from God, do you?î

Lesson 14: Believe Godís Prophets:
Ellen started having a vision. ìCaptain Bates became very interested. He listened as Ellen White told about seeing the stars and planets. He knew about the stars. He had been a sea captain for many years. He had to study the stars to be a good captain. He knew from talking with her that Ellen White didnít know anything about the stars and planets. The only way she could be saying these thins was if...if...if the visions really were from God. Suddenly Captain Bates stood up and shouted, ëEllen Whiteís vision is from God. I believe this vision about the planets was given so I might never again doubt Godís messenger.íî

Lesson 16: The Sabbath is Important:
ìSatan says it is not possible for anyone on this earth to keep Godís commandments. When Jesus lived on this earth without sinning, He showed that Satan was wrong. Because Jesus died on the cross, it is possible for us to keep the commandments. Not by ourselves, oh no, but if we trust and love Jesus we grow to be more and more like Him every day.î

Lesson 22: Jesus Will Create a New Earth:
EGW is put in pretty good company here. ìBible-time people will be in heaven. Imagine meeting Paul and Daniel. Imagine talking with Esther and Joseph. Do you want to meet these people from Bible times? Do you want to see Ellen? Are you anxious to see King Jesus?...(then a little later on, itís reiterated again) Do you want to see Ellen and Paul and Rhoda and all the others who have served Jesus?î

I apologize for taking up so much room here but I thought some of you may be interested in seeing actual excerpts from the Kindergarten curriculum. After each lesson there is an activity to do which reinforces the points made, usually a craft of some sort. I really doubt that they expect 5 and 6 year olds to grasp these concepts, but is rather pure indoctrination starting at as early an age as possible. I honestly didnít realize that it started so early.
Flyinglady
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Post Number: 1123
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As I read the above, I am so THANKFUL that SDA teacher was so mean to my son and I took him out of the school. Thank You God. I am so glad my son did not learn anything about EGW. Your hand has been on us for a loooong time.
You are awesome.
Diana
Greg
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Post Number: 46
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heretic, thanks for taking the time to post that. It's painfully obvious that teaching the "gospel according to Ellen" starts at a very early age in Adventism. As you said, there's no way a 5-6 year old can process that information in any meaningful way, other than to be indoctrinated.

I don't know about anyone else, but reading the material you posted made me feel like I was in some sort of parallel universe, like something I from the Twilight Zone.

Greg
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 394
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"He knew from talking with her that Ellen White didnít know anything about the stars and planets. The only way she could be saying these thins was if...if...if the visions really were from God."

Satan doesn't know the names of stars and planets??? Hmmm...

But I think Ellen studied up on it and just deceived the man, probably.

Jeremy
Flyinglady
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Post Number: 1131
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whatever she did, she was/is a false prophet. That is the bottom line for me. As to who told her what to write and who the handsome young man was that appeared to her, who gave her the information about the star/planets, well, Satan and his angels can masquerade anything they want and they have a lot of knowledge. They are masters of disguise.
Just give me Jesus. He is all I need. And He is awesome.
Diana
Susan_2
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Heretic, I am astonished at what I just read. However, my grandchild is seven and in first grade in a SDA school. Last year in kindergarten she could tell me the entire biography of EGW acording to SDA legands. I just keep praying for a miracle that my granddaughter will soon be releaved of that influence. Good greif, she's barely past babyhood. I hope your wife skips over that stuff with your child. The part that gets under my skin the most is that if Jesus could keep the commandments perfect then we can too. Get read! Jesus was/is God. I am a born sinner and forever will be just that.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1521
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Heretic! Thanks for posting all those quotes. I am quite tired of hearing people say that Adventism is changing; people aren't learning all that old stuff anymore.

Oh no! Those quotes are historic Adventism, and they're teaching children all about Ellen AND the IJ from before they have any ability to process the information. Brainwashing indeed.

The church is actually NOT changing.

Praise God for Jesus!

Colleen

Heretic
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Post Number: 14
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 4:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Colleen, I couldn't agree more. The more things change the more they stay the same. You can have as much cosmetic surgery as you want but the person underneath remains the same.

Since beginning my study of EGW, the SDA church, and it's doctrines just a couple of months ago, I've been so amazed at the intentional and blatant deceptions perpetrated by it's leadership and others. "Twilight Zone" is exactly right, Greg.

Susan, no, my wife will be skipping this entire area with my son. My wife (who is a denominational employee) and I are in complete agreement on this. It will be over my cold, lifeless body that my little boy would be subjected to this form of brainwashing. I was subjected to it and the joke is on me.

Flyinglady
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Post Number: 1132
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 7:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heretic,
I am sooo glad that you and wife agree on not teaching the section abour EGW. God's hand is on the both of you.
Diana
Chris
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The evangelicals out there that think modern Adventism has left all that cultic stuff behind really need to see that Kindergarten curriculum. Amazing! Thanks Heretic!

Chris
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1523
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I couldn't agree more, Chris. One of my biggest "burdens" is that the Christian community come to see Adventism for what it is. Christians have, largely, bought the deception, and the Adventist church reassures itslef of its own validity by basking in Christianity's general acceptance of it.

Then we who leave are seen as "troubled" or "trouble-makers" when we express what we know.

The dynamics remind me a lot of the way an abusive family funciotns. The abusive members (often parents) "clean up nicely" in public, often becoming involved in church and civic organizations and gaining respect from many. The children are likewise expected to present a unified front and "keep the secrets". If one ventures to leave, the family closes ranks, denies the "betrayer's" claims, and convinces others that the "defector" is troubled and in need of psychiatric care.

It sounds so familiar.

Colleen
Heretic
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The hits just keep on coming.

This afternoon, my wife and I played a board game, a lot like Trivial Pursuit, with my son for the first time called "Miracles and Pitfalls" published by the Review and Herald. One of the questions got my attention. Question: "In Daniel's prophecy, what was cleansed after 2300 YEARS (emphasis mine)?" Answer: "The Sanctuary."

Since children are allowed to look up the answers in the Bible, as game rules dictate, this could be interesting when astute kids pick up on the discrepancy. Yet another subtle effort to indoctrinate the young into acceptance of the Investigative Judgement as fact?

Heretic
Flyinglady
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Post Number: 1133
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heretic,
Why not go to a Christian book store and replace the SDA game with something from there? I cannot suggest anything because my son is an adult and I do not know what is there for children. Just a suggestion.
Diana
Skip
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Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heretic, you stole my thunder! I used to have your handle for my license plate when we lived in California. I worked at the Adventist Media Center and got that fancy license plate while working for the church no less! It was a great conversation piece to drive up to the Voice of Prophecy building and have "Heretic" on one's plates! That was in the early 1980s about the time that I met Richard Tinker at the Union Office in Westlake near Thousand Oaks. To think that was 21 years ago is amazing to me now. But I envy you your "Heretic" handle. There was quite a number of "Heretics" in the Adventist Media Center by the time I lost my job, that they said was because they didn't have the money to keep my department open! It wasn't for having "Heretic" on my license plate you see. The sad thing is that some who left Adventism gave up on God and I know one man who became an atheist and wanted to convert me to not believing in God. He was as determined to get me to become an atheist, as he had been to convert people to Adventism before! Giving up on Ellen White just reaffirmed my belief in God, because I think it gave God more credibility once I knew that he didn't have anything to do with Ellen G. White.


Skip
skipbaker@cox.net
Greg
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Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Giving up on Ellen White just reaffirmed my belief in God, because I think it gave God more credibility once I knew that he didn't have anything to do with Ellen G. White.



Wow Skip, I really resonated with that statement. I guess you could say I was "asleep" for many years growing up in Adventism. Looking back, I realize that it just didn't make sense to me, even at an early age (some here call it cognitive dissonace). It wasn't until I untangled Ellen G. White from my religious beliefs that the gospel came alive, and my hunger for Jesus has never been greater!

I used to tell my friends that I wished I had come to Adventism later in life, figuring my lack of interest was due to lifelong familiarity. How ironic that my faith has been reborn now that I have taken a step away from Adventism. You're right, God does have more credibility when we allow Him to speak to us through His Word and Spirit.

Greg

(Message edited by Greg on March 06, 2005)
Flyinglady
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Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do not remember feeling or thinking anything about my SDA beliefs until I married. The man became an SDA just so I would marry him and as soon as we married, he quite practicing adventism. That is when my legalism, as I see now, really came to the front. I just practiced adventism because that was what I was educated to do. I saw inconsistencies in the way my parents practiced it, but I was taught not to question my elders, so I did not question, too often. It took my 12 step program to teach me about God's love for me and get rid of the adventist cobwebs in my brain. Then when I read about EGW God knew I was ready to leave. I did not realize how much she influenced the SDA doctrines until I learned about her. Now I enjoy reading the Bible and Daniel and Revelation do not scare me.
God has been so good and is so awesome.
Diana
Tisha
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Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm putting this here because the topic is Adventist Education.

I was on the school board of a SDA school (grades 1-12 ). At one board meeting they were gloating about how good the school scored on the standardized tests compared to the national average. They thought they were doing such a great job of teaching.

I was appalled! I knew of several students that weren't going to school there because either they were not able to keep up acedemically or they needed special tutoring/help that the school was unwilling to give. These students were told to go to the public school where they could get the special help they needed. Any student that didn't meet the school's high education standards was "encouraged" to go elsewhere. This, in effect, made it a special school with bright or gifted students. That would be OK if it was advertised as such. However, they kept that fact hidden. Of course the test scores would be high with this self-selected set of students. Most of the below-average students had gone elsewhere!

When I brought this up at the school board meeting it was discounted and ignored. They just couldn't see the connection! They were in such denial.

I knew of many potential students that had special needs. I constantly pleaded for a special-ed teacher or a school psychologist, even for one day a week, so that those special needs could be addressed. When there were abuse issues or other problems (at school as well as home!) those students had nowhere to turn, and often just left to go elewhere. It was as though there was a blind spot when it came to seeing the fact that our "perfect" SDA children might not be so perfect after all!

I wondered why, if it was so important that our children have a "Christian" education, were we turning our backs on our own children!

It seemed I was the only board member to ask the hard questions and try face real issues. All the board wanted to do was stick their heads in the sand and pretend everything was all right!

Being on the school board was a big eye-opener into the "inner workings" of the denomination. It was another confirmation to me that the SDA Church had some real problems with deception.

I must say that there were some wonderful teachers in that school. They did the best they could, but the atmosphere that they worked in was oppressive. I'm sure many of them would have been much better teachers without the constraints of the SDA educational system. My son (who is gifted) had a teacher that really gave him encouragement, and to this day stays in touch with him (almost 20 years later).

However, my son, who went mostly to SDA schools through college, has left the SDA Church and has not found any other Christian fellowship. He was so disillusioned about religion that he just cannot see any need for it. My daughter, who went to public school through college, has left the SDA Church but still seeks Christian fellowship and has a personal relationship with Jesus.

So, what does that say about Adventist education? It might give a good acedemic education, but it's Bible classes don't teach the Bible. Instead they teach a doctrine that is false and doesn't equip it's students for the most important thing - ETERNAL LIFE! So what good is it? I sure don't know!

If only I could do it all over again with my children! I sure will try to make a difference in the life of my grandaughter! I pray for my family daily that they will all know a saving relationship with Jesus.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem of special ed is a real concern for all private schools. I agree, though, that the ADventists' refusal to acknowledge that fact up front is the worst part of the situation.

The school where I taught last finally established clear guidelines, based on testing, for who they would and would not admit. The school was, quite simply, not able to afford the faculty to address special education needs. They established a policy of explaining that fact to prospective parents, and they also marketed themselves as a "college prep" school.

Private schols do function at a financial disadvantage many times. ADventist schools, however, are sometimes in a unique situation because they do not have to meet their own budgets. They are conference subsidized; teachers are not paid by the school. They are paid by the conference, and the buildings are paid for by the conference. Further, every church must provide a certain amount of financial support to the conference schools based on membership--not based on students attending the church.

Bottom line, Tish, you're right about what's important. What really matters is that our kids learn about Jesus, and added to that, they need the skills to function in the world.

Colleen
Flyinglady
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Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was living in VA I met a couple from the Conference Va is in. The wife happened to be in education. I had worked in special education, as an occupational therapist, in the public schools and I knew there were children in the SDA school system that need help. I spoke to this woman for quite a while at lunch. She told me to write a proposal and send it to her. Oh, I was not SDA at the time and was not pretending to be. I met them one of the few times I attended church to see some very dear SDA friends.
I never got that proposal written, Thank you God.
The best thing I did for my son was to take him out of the SDA system. He is a Christian and I thank God for that.
God is so awesome.
Diana

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