| Author | Message | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hi all, I've noticed an interesting phenomenon in my journey away from Adventism. It started by realizing that I would be uncomfortable bringing a non-Christian (or non-Adventist) into my Adventist congregation for the purposes of evangelizing them, primarily because of my growing disbelief in the unique Adventist doctrines. I figured that at some point, my "new convert" would be faced with Ellen White or a sermon on temperance and would ask me questions I couldn't answer truthfully. This is what kept me for many years from sharing my faith with anyone. Realizing this helped me to know I was no longer in the right church. I reasoned that if I didn't believe what I had in Adventism was so precious that I couldn't wait to share it, I was in the wrong place. As it turns out, this phenomenon is not isolated to transitioning or former Adventists. Today, my wife and I were talking with some close Adventist friends about our reasons for leaving. Praise God He gave me a clear mind and helped me to state the reasons for leaving in an understandable way. The first reaction from our friends was, "Why would you leave the Sabbath?" We spent about an hour discussing the Bible-based reasons for this. At the end, one of our friends remarked "I understand what you are saying. I agree with most of it. But I can't see leaving Adventism for a different church because my current life just works for me." At this point, I wholeheartedly agreed, stating that I had been there too. "But," I said, "do you feel that in Adventism, you have something so precious that you can't wait to share it?" To this my friend said, "No! I really have avoided evangelizing anyone into my belief system and way of life." My observation is this: cultural Adventists, like Jews, have taken comfort in the lifestyle and culture of their respective traditions. The last thing these people would ever want to do is bring someone into their tradition, because in their minds the religion is mostly cultural. Why impose your culture on someone else? Since I've opened the Word of God and examined the unique Adventist doctrines, I've been led into an even greater study of the gospels. I thank God for leading me to his Truth. For the first time, I know I have something so precious that I can't wait to tell others about it, fulfilling Christ's great commission. My enthusiasm for telling others the Good News is no longer dulled by the fear of introducing new believers to the culture of Adventism. What a joy it is to find that the pure gospel of Jesus Christ is sufficient and relevant for everyone! Greg | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1099 Registered: 3-2004  |
Wow Greg, What you say really connects with me. My thing was the quoting of EGW in a sermon. She was not the Bible. And that was before I knew about her plagiarism and having others write for her. I remember sitting in church service one day and all the quotes in the pastor's sermon were from EGW. I remember thinking, if there are non-SDAs here they will not believe because that is not the Bible. I am realizing I had something about her for a long, long time. That was about 30 years ago. After my name was taken off the church books and I went to church occasionally, if EGW was quoted, I got up and walked out. At the time I did not know why other than it was not the Bible and I went to church to hear the Bible preached. Like you, now I like to tell others what God has done for me and I am a more enthusiastic Christian. I no longer am concerned about extra Biblical sources. I will repeat your words. "What a joy it is to find that the pure gospel of Jesus Christ is sufficient and relevant for everyone!" God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 65 Registered: 12-2004 |
Greg, You have summed up what started my wife and I our way out. For years she had said that she didn't feel that she could bring anyone in to visit church because of the reasons you so eloquently described. I saw this guardedly, but we have never had a pastor that would speak grace or present a sermon that didn't feel impregnated with material taken out of the SOP. My service today was so wonderful and grace filled that didn't call us to be adventists but to be Christian working toward the prize. Praise God to be surrounded by the love of Jesus and his grace. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 193 Registered: 9-2004 |
Well, speaking of Cultural adventists... Some of you know the saga of my relationship with "C", who is one. (first, this is long b/c I have no one else to talk to about this but you guys and I have to unload!) And there is so much understanding here..SORRY IT'S SO LONG!! Please comment! Some pretty good news to report.. C and I had a talk yesterday, We have not talked about it since before Christmas last year. I am happy to report that C says that he no longer believes that keeping the sabbath is necessary for salvation! He went on to say that any person or religion that teaches it or even believes it, is not teaching biblically. I couldn't believe my ears!! He then said that he is still reading and studying but he has come to the conclusion that that way of thinking is wrong! While it may seem to be a baby step to others outside of SDA, I know to you guys that that is major! We discussed other things about EW and the perpetuation of her teachings-- plainly quoting her and hiding it; we still have different opinions on what the church needs to do to publicly denounce her, but he did say if he were in the Headquarters or whatever, he would insist that they throw out her teachings and the use of her name.. After this discussion, I told him a couple of other issues and approached it like this: "You consider your Saturday choices a personal way to worship and honor the Lord, right? But you would want your wife to worship the way that you do." You wouldn't want her to shop, go to amusement parks, watch t.v. or anything on Saturdays. It doesn't seem right." He said yes, I am guilty of that and I have been thinking about that, because I am not sure that I should be that way (not verbatim). So, I said yeah, because, our worship to the Lord is a personal thing to Jesus, so it isn't right for you to determine how I would choose to worship the Lord." I reminded him of John 4:19, where a non-jewish (samaritan) woman was asking Jesus about the Jews saying people must worship in Jerusalem. But Jesus answered the time is coming that people won't say worship here or here, because it will be in Spirit and in truth. Meaning, the Holy Spirit will be inside of us and will no longer be bound to a place or time or space. So, then telling him that my worship must be personal b/c I have a personal Savior who lives in me, He really can't dictate HOW I choose to honor the Lord in my life or worship Him (and for that matter, even an SDA woman shouldn't be dictated upon like that) His response was very open saying, I know and I am still reading and learning, Tracey. (YOu have to understand that I am trying to come common sense and friendly with him) So I then tell him that I am completely understanding to him not wanting to watch tv or listen to secular music on that day or whatever he wants b/c I can respect what I person chooses to add or omit out of their lives as a child of God in honor of God being in their life --- but he should give me the same respect but all our worship to the Lord is personal to us as we have an individual relationship with Him. He agreed with that premise and idea. So I then said, the sabbath was created LONG before tv, radio, etc, so that says to me that eliminating these things was a man-made idea of what worship and keeping it holy should be. Not that it's wrong, but it cannot be said that this is the ONLY way to honor the Lord on a day that you consider holy. For example, I am in a Jewish neighborhood and they walk on shabbat. But you drive to church. It's individual, but how can you expect me or your <potential> wife to think and live exactly as you believe?? I told him, I could respect that he doesn't want to watch junk on tv on Saturdays but it's unfair to put upon me that I couldn't or could do this or that because we are free in Christ Jesus to do what we please and letting the Holy Spirit leading us. I also challenged him to consider why the church uses EW all the time if, as he says, only the bible matters. What are they trying to do, perpetuate? Is it about money, deception? I said to just consider it. He said that the sabbath is the only thing unique to SDA otherwise they are like every other church. I said no, what about the IJ -- I explained to him what I knew and how it keeps people from really knowing that when they die they will meet the Lord. Which in essence, becomes another gospel and not the true gospel. That is cultish, I told him. He said he believes we only need the bible. And again, I challenged him to consider what that would mean for people that didn't really believe that they were saved and free. It's a cult and it's abuse and to think about why would a church perpetuate these things?? I upset him a little when I said EW would burn in hell for being a false prophet. He said, i shouldn't judge. But I told him that GAlatians 1 said if any teaches a false gospel that they are eternally condemned. I said She did it to herself!! YOu cannot take what she said, the true parts and hold it and throw out what is not true because that is NOT what a prophet of God is, that is what a false prophet does. And a false prophet is not OF GOD, therefore they cannot be with God and are AGAINST GOD and anything or anyone AGAINST GOD cannot reign with God, or inherit the kingdom of God because they have LIED on GOD. To call oneself a prophet means you say "Thus sayeth the LORD", be it in visions, minds, dreams whatever!! I told him, that if she sat in his church today, in the pews and said 1/2 things from the bible and 1/2 things from her head, She would be considered crazy, delusional or deceived, but she WOULD NOT be received as a person of GOD! I told him So, you have to throw her writings, teachings out ALTOGETHER. She condemned herself. <he thinks I am too passionate about it (b/c he doesn't care about EW or her ideas) and consumed, but I remember when I wanted the truth, I sought it and I do have a passion for souls to know Christ and be set free and yes, I do get angry that someone really wanting to know the Lord, get fooled by this! because once 15 years ago, at 20, I sought to know who my God was and I found Him, the true and living God -- not some mess) All in all, a good and hopeful conversation and I see the Lord is slowly removing the blinders off of his eyes to question why he believes what he believes. He was so much more agreeable in this conversation and open and less defensive. It could only be God! Thank you for all your prayers and keep doing so. I hope one day that he will post on here to bring good news, but I have to say that he thinks that he is different from most of my friends from this site. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 194 Registered: 9-2004 |
And for the record, I don't think the sabbath is necessary but the bible DOES allow for those to consider it a part of their life in the Lord and if removed apart from SDAism, I can see the value in it. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1595 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tracey, The Sabbath is the day of worship for over 300 Christian denominations. You can go to the Bible Sabbath Associations website and get a list of many churches that are not connected with the SDA at all that observe Sabbath. So, he needs to know it is not a distinctive to the SDA. The only doctrine that is distinct and unique to the SDA is the IJ. That is the only one they can truly claim as "their own". As far as bringing non-SDA's into an SDA church and having them hear a lot of EGW quotes, the local minister gets around the confusion this might cause a visitor by saying, "My favorite Christian author said this..." and then he gives a EGW quote and doesn't give her name. The SDA's know who he means and a visitor would most likly think of maybe Martin Luther, James Dobson, Billy Graham, etc. This is an interesting topic you brought up, Greg. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 195 Registered: 9-2004 |
Yeah, and He doesn't think it's distinctive to SDA,He said so. Tracey | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1103 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tracey, It sounds like you had a very good conversation with "C". I am glad. God has kept your heart and head shielded and I praise Him for that. I will continue to pray for you and "C". We are sisters in Christ and I like that. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1484 Registered: 12-2003  |
Tracey, what an interesting conversation. I agree with Diana; God has "kept your heart and head shielded and I praise Him for that." And He will continue to do so. Truly, until he can see EGW is a false prophet and let her go completely, he is bound to Adventism. I know that sounds pretty rigid, but I firmly believe it. A friend of mine said something I thought was really profound today. On Friday night at our Bible study, we were looking at texts that declare the divinity of Jesus. We also looked at some quotes from Ellen and other sources that show how unclear the church has ALWAYS been regarding the Trinity--and how un-unified on the the belief they still are today. At any rate, my friend said she had been thinking that it would be impossible to believe in the Great Controversy (the supposed conflict between Jesus and Satan) if one really believed in the Trinity as One God in Three persons. Adventists can only hold onto the the Great Controversy, truly, if they believe Jesus is less than the Father and in some sort of equal to semi-comparable position to Satan. If one thinks of the Sovereign God who is Lord of lords, King of kings, and ruler over all, there's no way they could believe in a battle between Jesus and Satan which both are fighting to win. God is NOT in a battle with the Devil. There is so much wrong with Adventist doctrines, and it is so subtle. But every single SDA belief is connected to every other. Adventism is a seamless whole. It's no accident; it's not a mish-mash of pet theories patched together by several people. It's a complete unit of unbibilical heresies stated in orthodox, evangelical-sounding words--but the entire thing is a misrepresentation of God and reality. Only a clever mind could have fabricated such a clever deception. Ellen was a convenient mouthpiece for that clever mind, I've come to believe. Remember her "handsome young man" who appeared in her later dreams? I think it's not far-fetched to call it a familiar spirit. Praise God for revealing Himself and for continuing to establish us in truth and reality. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1105 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, It had to be a very clever mind to deceive so many people for so long. Who else would want to deceive God's children? I can think of only one being. And even though I did not know about the "handsome young man" that appeared in EGW's later dreams until I decided to not rejoin the SDA church and read the web site about her, I agree that it is not far fetched to call it a familiar spirit. I am so thankful for the internet and all those who have put up web sites exposing EGW and the foundation of the SDA church. THANK YOU TO EACH ONE OF YOU, AND YOU TOO, COLLEEN AND RICHARD. God is awesome is how He leads each of us out of adventism and into His love. Diana | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 196 Registered: 9-2004 |
Yes, Colleen, he will have to face its roots to be completely free. My post was trying to show how he is changing his opinions on some things that he once strongly believed. Which means, if he's changing his opinions, then he is questioning where he got the ideas.. Which will ultimately lead to him questioning the churh's doctrines and teachings and will thus, lead him to the founding quack. He said the more you tell me about her, the less I want to know about her- I don't want to know anything she said!! (Perhaps, he is already seeing how his beliefs could be tied in to her??) Like he wants to run from hearing about her b/c maybe it's similar to what he was taught which means the teachings influenced him. And like Greg said, the easier road is to keep one's life status quo. But I tell you, I am so happy God has shown him that the sabbath is not based on salvation!! Hallelujah! (I accept all degrees of progress!)Journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. Tracey | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 197 Registered: 9-2004 |
Thanks Diana! We are indeed Sisters in Christ! Also, Susan, I realize what you were saying, but what I actually typed was incorrect. I actually said What other doctrines other than the sabbath are in SDA that are different from other churches.. He said nothing, I said no, the IJ. The point was that SDA has IJ, not that the sabbath was unique to SDA... And he did also say that the sabbath practiced in other religions. Fyi, I hate the word sabbath-keepers! It so implies your belief system is about the sabbath rather than the center of our life and beliefs are Christ. That's why I love to say that I am a Christian. | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2005 |
Greg, I can totally identify with what you're saying. Like you, my family and I have not separtated from the church even though we're calling it's uniquely Adventist doctrines into question. Yes, the cultural aspects of Adventism are at play bigtime here. I run into this problem at work nearly everyday. I work in the health care field in an area that affords considerable time to converse with my patients. And because we live in the Bible Belt the conversation often will drift into the realm of religion. I'm often asked which church I attend and so reluctantly I tell them. Since I've been studying lately, though, I've almost felt like I need to throw in a qualifier like "But..." So far I've been able to downplay it but it still makes me quite uncomfortable. I don't want them to start posing many questions because then I'd be asked to explain these doctrines which I am finding to be of little merit. It's definitely a tough spot to be in. At least most folks here don't seem to know too much about SDA's and for that I'm grateful. Heretic | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 659 Registered: 7-2003  |
Tracey, I truly wish I could agree with you that a SDA saying "the Sabbath isn't a salvation issue" is a big deal. Such a statement is not a big deal, it's the norm. Nearly all SDAs say this, especially when speaking with non-SDAs. Very very few SDAs would ever say, "You need to keep the Sabbath to be saved". The logical conclusion to SDA theology is that the Sabbath effectively becomes a salvation issue, but nearly no SDA will admit this or talk about it in that way. SDAs will almost always say it's an obedience issue, or a sanctification issue, or a fruits issue, or a holiness issue, or a Christian growth issue, or an issue of pleasing God. In other words you're not being truly obedient or truly pleasing to God if you're not keeping the Sabbath. I know this sounds as if I'm raining on you a bit and I truly don't mean it that way. I just don't want you to be misled by "Adventist-speak". There was a time when I would have looked you in the eye and said, "No, the Sabbath isn't a salvation issue. Keeping a day can't save you. We don't teach that." ....and all the while I would have been feeling sorry for you that you couldn't see the truth and I would feel superior to you because you weren't being obedient to God. Until C says something like, "I've studied it out and I've come to the convicition that day of worship is completely a non-issue for new covenant Christians" he probably hasn't strayed from the standard company line very far. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1487 Registered: 12-2003 |
Unfortunately, Chris is right, Tracey. Now, I realize that what C says is a change for him--and I agree that it is good sign. And you know him--we don't! Still, his admission doesn't sound strange. It sounds like a typical Adventist interpretation to accommodate a non-SDAs confusion. It requires a change in his own thinking (I understand because I went through a similar paradigm shift as an Adventist), and it's a change that may well continue to lead himn down the path of truth--but it also may just comfort him as he thinks about the Sabbath from a new presepctive--like looking out a different window and seeing the tree from the north instead of the east, or something like that! Prayers for you and C continue, Tracey! Colleen | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 198 Registered: 9-2004 |
I hear what you are saying Chris and Colleen, but I should have told you that our conversation before Christmas was when he said, that he believed he would go to hell if he didn't keep it. So, what this says to me, is that through his studies, he is beginning to understand the true dynamic of the gospel and how salvation really is free and not by his keeping sabbath works. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 199 Registered: 9-2004 |
And he did say, " I've been studying and I don't think that that way of thinking is right." <see above> He also said, he is still reading though and hasn't figured out everything. Just keep up the prayers. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 757 Registered: 7-2003  |
Tracey, I'll join in on the rain....B has also changed how he talks about many things, but he is still completely loyal to the SDA church. He would rather get a limited visitation with his son than to be in spiritual unity with his mother and get to be a "full time" father. That's the sacrifice he's willing to make for adventism. What I have found over time is that B has merely found new ways to justify old thoughts. He has changed his terminology in light of what I've said, but really it's changed very little on how he lives and thinks and believes. From my perspective, until C is out of adventism, he will still view "nons" as inferior no matter how subtle those thoughts are...and he may not even be able to understand his discomfort with "sundaykeepers". But it is the whole indoctrination that is ingrained in the very core thought processes from a young age. I hope he is changing as you see, but my initial thought still remains...guard your heart. He didn't get into adventism in 2 years, it won't take 2 years to get out, if he ever would even contemplate such a move. I know what you mean about having no one else to talk to, so don't let my negativity discourage you. I just don't want you to be disappointed. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 74 Registered: 7-2004 |
Tracey, I think it is a good thing that you are passionate about this and are educated about EGW enough to tell him the errors. He sounds like he is in denial, most SDA's are afraid to get away from the "truth". But he has to deal with the fact that you are very knowledgable about the problems in the church. He can't just look down on you thinking you are a poor misinformed lost soul. You KNOW what is going on, and it sounds like he is responding. | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2005 |
Sorry to drag you guys back to my initial post at the top. I was thinking more about the phenomenon of cultural Adventists being hesitant to evangelize. In my study of the unique Adventist doctrine, I've had occasion to openly discuss my thoughts with several Adventist pastors, two of whom were seminary-trained. The seminary guys insist that the historic arm of the Adventist church is responsible for the bad rap Adventists get in the world. They have confided to me that their professors at Andrews think preachers like Doug Batchelor and Mark Finley are trying to pull the church back to a very traditional Adventist view, while attracting new converts to the church who share those views. According to my pastor friends, this is exactly what they are fighting against in their own church. Interestingly, their particular churches have taken the route of defining a subset of the Adventist doctrine which they believe in, while refuting the rest. They even go so far as to deny that Adventism is the remnant church. I can't help but think this approach will put them on a collision course with the conference at some point. My other pastor friend related his experience in evangelism. He was recently charged with conducting a Revelation seminar. He was chagrined to find that by the end of the seminar, the only people left were, in his words, "conspiracy theory wackos". Interestingly, when the topic of Ellen White comes up, none of these pastors sees her relevance to these issues, leaving me to conclude that they are either blind or disengenuous. So we have two camps: the historic Adventists who want to embrace and extend the unique teachings of Adventism as a tool for evangelism, while the cultural Adventists try to put a mainstream spin on the SDA religion, viewing the historic group as the problem in bringing "normal people" to the church. Any thoughts? Greg |
