| Author | Message | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2004 |
I have been "lurking" most of the time on this site, but thought maybe some of you could give me some help on some troublesome texts. They make perfect sense in my traditional Adventist upbringing, but in light of the "New Covent" they leave me wondering. .......Anyway here they are: 1) Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which My covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it is their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people (Jeremiah 31:31-33). So what law is being referred to? For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 2:13) I have always tried to be a doer of the law all my Adventist life..........cause that is what the Bible says! If it doesnt say that, what is this text saying? 3) He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13) So I have to confess and leave my sin..........sounds like I need to be perfect! I have lots more, but if anyone can help me with these ones for now I will be enternally grateful! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 164 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Schasc, I hope this makes sense to you. Paul was addressing our hopelessness in the face of the law. As the law stood, without an intercessor, mankind was condemned because our behavior had to be perfect, from birth on, for eternal life to be an earned possession. We know that since Adam that hasn't happened because we were born infected with sin. All have sinned and fall sort of the glory of God. We were created to bring glory to God, but we all fall short. Our arrows don't even make it to the target, much less pierce the target in the exact right place. If you start at Rom. 2:12 and read through 2:!6, you will get the entire paragraph, and the meaning of the one sentence is made clearer. Paul started out talking about how people who sin apart from the law are judged apart from the law, only he also says they will perish apart from the law. Then we have the statement about those who have been close enough to the law to have had it read to them annually by the priests, hearers of the law. But here he is saying that hearing it does not make you a doer. In both cases, the wages of sin is death. Romans 2:12,13 -- "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righeous." Now, starting at verse 14 he introduces the idea that the conscience/heart is where the law of God has been written from the beginning of time. In the NIV verses 14 and 15 are a parenthetical phrase, so that much of the statement is set apart as an explanation that even the gentiles (those apart from the law) have had access to the law. The Jews had the actual written, thus readable law, since Sinai. The law upon the heart, the one that convicts of wrong-doing, or wrong-thinking, is the law that was with mankind from the Garden of Eden until Sinai, and is still with us today, the Royal Law, the law that Jesus boiled down to "Love the Lord with all you heart, mind and soul, and your neighbor as yourself." The end of verse 15 says that this law, Royal Law, sometimes accuses man, sometimes defends him. Romans 2:14,15 -- "(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" Now comes the beautiful sentence, the one about judgment. Romans 2:16 -- "This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." God will judge us through Jesus Christ. Literally he will look at us through Jesus. Jesus literally and perfectly kept the law. God is looking directly at you and me, and when we put full faith and trust in his cleansing blood, God sees Jesus - perfect, wonderful Jesus. Your third point from Proverbs 28:13 means that we need to come to Jesus openly confessing our need of cleansing. No hiding, no diminishing the wrong we have done, be up-front with him about it. That doesn't mean we have to remember to confess every sin of doing along with every sin of omission. It means to drop our silly pride and stop trying to add a measure of our own works to the salvation value of the blood of Christ. You and I cannot improve upon perfection (Jesus), so we, in faith, cover ourselves with His blood. Now go back to Romans 2:16. God is looking at you through Jesus. Do you feel safe now? Does this mean that we keep sinning willy-nilly? No. Does it mean that our lives are perfection now? No. Jesus is perfection. He is our covering. We admit our need of him, daily, sometimes minute-to-minute (That's Sabbath in Christ--resting our efforts to save ourselves and trust him to do the work of salvation). When our conscience bothers us, listen, make the changes necessary, ask our brothers and sisters forgiveness when we've hurt them, all the while resting assured that Jesus covers our sins. Belva | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 165 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Schasc, I just realized that I didn't directly respond to Jer. 31:31-33, but if you look at the discussion above about the Royal Law, I think you will get the picture about Jeremiah as well. I pray that God will richly bless as you delve deeply into the treasures in the scriptures. Belva | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 261 Registered: 3-2004  |
Schasc, I just finished reading a book that has been mentioned here many times. It's called Classic Christianity by Bob George. This is a very easy book to read, not boring at all, and it will help you immensely with your walk with the Lord. It's a book like Greg Taylor's that I may want to get several copies of in order to pass it out to those I meet. The information it contains is totally central to our walk into understanding foundational aspects of Christianity, things that were mistaught and misunderstood within Adventism, partially because of the definition issue we've been dealing with. Praise God... | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2004 |
Schasc, Welcome to Former Adventist Forum. Note that Proverbs 28 does not suggest that you must be perfect. It encourages you to confess and forsake your sin: "He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy." As you pursue an understanding of the New Covenant, you can contrast texts such as Proverbs 28:9, which reads "If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable" with texts such as Romans 10, which indicates "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." As you read about the new covenant, you will see text after text which indicates that perfection is not what God has called us to. He has created a new covenant to replace the old one because the old one wasn't working. In the new covenant, rather than seeking with futility the perfecting of our characters in our own strength, we can actually begin to know God (which is the whole point of the new covenant). Notice what Paul writes in Hebrews 8: "But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Schasc, like you, I used to believe that I had to be perfect in order to be sealed at Christ's coming. Now I believe that, as a result of my relationship with Jesus Christ, He is changing me to become more like Him, and I realize that my own efforts to be perfect will not impact my salvation. Notice what it says in Galatians 3: "The whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." May God guide you and me into a greater understanding of His amazing grace! tdf | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 374 Registered: 10-2004  |
Schasc, Belva and Tdf did a good job of answering your questions. Here are my thoughts real quickly: 1. The law referred to is the Law of Christ--the NT makes it clear that that is the Law we are under in the New Covenant. 2. The doers of the Law shall be justified, yes. That will be a total of 0 people, because Paul says over and over again that "by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." That is why we need Jesus. 3. I have not studied that verse in depth. I don't think "forsaking" your sins means the same as Ellen tried to make you think, though. It may just mean repentance--turning from your sin to Jesus. But once again, I have not looked at the verse in depth, and I don't even know if it's talking about salvation. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 02, 2005) | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 351 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hello Schasc, I think you have asked some very good questions. I totally understand why these texts as a whole are confusing. Since stepping out on my own, 7 years ago, to investigate what God was really all about, a principle I have come to over and over is that the Bible is Godís unchanging, infallible, unerring word. It seems at a glance that the Bible contradicts itself but when it is studied verse by verse, chapter by chapter it is very clear that God of the Old Testament and God of the New Testament are one and the same. There are many Biblical scholars on this forum and they may have other things to add to my limited view of your Jeremiah quote and question but here is my take on it: Backing up to verse 23 of chapter 31, God is telling His people (as He did throughout the Old Testament through various prophets) He will restore the nation of Israel and He will reverse their fortunes. This was to happen through the establishment of a new relationship between Himself and His people. This was prophecy for Israel but we know today that God accomplished this promise through Jesus Christ. But the beauty of this new beginning was the promise of the New Covenant that God was making with His people. It is new because it is nothing like the Old Covenant where God set a holy standard of conduct before the people and because of their sinful hearts they were unable keep those standards. A change was needed. And so He explains in verse 33 what that change would be: ìI will put My law WITHIN and ON THEIR HEART[S]ÖI will be their God and they shall be My people.î That is the law of the New Covenant. God puts His law in our minds and in our hearts, not just on stones. God has no need to exhort His people to know the Lord BECAUSE they will already know God. His New Covenant gives His people the inner ability to obey His righteous standards and thus enjoy His blessings. ìI have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in meî (Gal.2:20)ÖI LOVE THAT VERSEÖit is the New Covenant in a nutshell! I personally like Jeremiah 31:34Öit is the second aspect of the New Covenant; Godís provision for sin. The sins of the people resulted in the curses of the Old Covenant in Israelís day. God is saying in verse 34 that as part of the New Covenant He will forgive and remember our sins no more! WOW! I have a great deal in my past that I donít ever want to think about againÖI am so grateful that God doesnít even remember them! I think Belvaís insight above of Romans 2:13 is excellent. James made the same point in 1:22-25 that those who will be declared righteous are those who obey the law. God does not give eternal life or justification to those who perform good works but to those who believe/trust in Him. For a clear understanding of ìlawî or ìcommandmentî read 1 John. John sums up Godís commandment in 3:23ÖîThis is His commandment, THAT WE BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER JUST AS HE COMMANDED US.î SC, I hope this is what you were asking and that I have been able to articulate a little of what you were looking for. If not, please keep asking and I also trust that those on this forum that have a great deal more insight than I do will share with you also. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1502 Registered: 12-2003  |
Schasc, Belva did a wonderful job of explaining that the REAL LAW was the one written on men's hearts from creation--the one again written on our hearts when we accept Jesus. It's also important to know that the Law Paul is talking about is NOT the Ten Commandments. When Paul refers to The Law, he's referring to The Torah. The Ten Commandments were never separated from the rest of the law in Israel's minds or experience. The Ten Commandments were set apart not because they were more eternal or basic than the "ceremonial" law, but because they were the words of the Old Covenant. Deuteronomy 4:13 says, "He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets." Exodus 31:18 also calls the "the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God." The study notes in the NIV say this: "In keeping with ancient Near Eastern practice, these were duplicates of the covenant document, not two sections of the Ten Commandments. One copy belonged to each party of the covenant. Since Israel's copy was to be laid up in the presence of her God (according to custom), both covenant tablets (God's and Israel's) were placed in the ark." The Ten Commandments were not God's Eternal Law. His law is much bigger than the Ten Commandments. The Old Testament identifies them as the literal covenant document, the words of the Sinai covenant. They were not an eternal "thing" introduced into the Sinai covenant; they were the official Sinaia covenant document. They were integral to Jewish law. Nowhere in either testament is the "moral law" separated from the "ceremonial law". In fact, Verle Streifling writes in his new book (which I'm editing--that's how I learned what I'm about to share!) that the Torah refers many times to the fact that Israel had "one law" or "one ordinance" or "the ordinance". Here is a list of texts where "one law" or ordinance show up: Exodus 12:49, Lev. 7:7, Lev 14:22; Num 15:16, Num 15:29; Num 9:14; Num 15:15; Num 19:2; Num 31:21. In each of these cases the Hebrew word from which the English word "one" is translated is the word "Eched", the same word always used for "one God" in the Old Testament. Even more interesting, that word "Eched" means "a unity or harmony". It is the word a person might use in reference to "one chord"--a unity of strands or, (in music), a unity of three notes. The Hebrew word "Yachead" means "a single entity". Yet in reference to "One God" and "One Law", the Bible uses the word "Echad" to identify the fact that each is a unity or harmony comprising One. Further, in Matthew 5 Jesus revealed that the Ten Commandments were not nearly sufficient to base one's behavior on if one hoped to achieve the perfection God required. Jesus included many things that are not in the Ten Commandments: the law of retribution or of responding to an enemy [turn the other cheek], the prohibition against lust, the prohibition of divorce except for unfaithfulness (not in the 10 Commandments but definitely allowed in the Torah), the prohibition of oath-taking [likewise not in the Ten but definitely in the Torah], the prohibition against hating one's enemy [assumed in the Torah as the opposite of love your brother] and loving the enenmy instead, etc. Jesus was declaring, in Matthew 5, His mission: in Him the law would be entirely fulfilled. In fact, He was fulfilling the least jot and tittle of the law--not just the Ten Commandments--but including the Ten Commandments. The law would exist until heaven and earth pass away as the evidence that Jesus IS the Messiah. Without it, we would have no proof that He was the promised One. In Jesus we would have the perfection God required. We would be covered with Jesus' perfect obedience. Only in Him could we hope to have victory over the things HE said God's law demanded: loving one's enemies, lust, swearing falsely, not retaliating against unfair treatment, etc. So, the Ten Commandments were only temporary, just as the whole Jewish law was only temporary. (Galatians 3:17-25) The Ten Commandments did NOT precede Sinai; they WERE the words of the covenant, and now they are obsolete and fading away as we are transformed from glory in glory as we live in the New Covenant (2 Cor. 3:7-18). The Law of God is eternal; the Ten Commandments do not equal the Law of God. They were God's statement of requirements from Israel; if they "kept" the Ten, God would bless them. The TRUE law of God was written on everyone's heart and consceince, as Belva explained, but men suprressed it by their wickedness. What Jesus asks of us is much harder, more detailed, more continuous that anything the Ten asked of Israel. What Jesus asks of us is impossible--unless we accept Him. Then the Holy Spirit makes us alive in Him, and He Himself--the living Law--resides in our hearts. He holds us accountable to things and for things the law never addressed. The Adventist explanation that the Ten Commandments ARE the law of God trivializes God's Law. God's LAW is the core of HIMSELF. The Ten Commandments were simply His covenant statement with Israel which became obsolete with the death and resurrection of Jesus. That's the point of the transfiguration. Moses (the Law) and Elijah (the prophets) and Jesus appeared together. A cloud covered them, and God's voice said, "This is my Son; listen to Him." When the disciples arose, the law and the prophets were gone; Jesus alone stood before them. Further, Jesus told then not to tell anyone what they had seen UNTIL AFTER HIS RESURRECTION. Until that time, the law and the prophets were God's revelation to Israel. They were what Israel had to honor in order to honor God. After Jesus' resurrection, however, He would have fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. As the One who could fulfill them, He then would become the One people would honor in order to honor God. Instead of honoring the shadow, they would honor the fulfillment. In Jesus is everything we need for salvation. When we are in Him, we are covered with His perfection, obedience, and righteousness. We are covered by His blood. We are restored to the Father. Have you read Greg Taylor's book "Discovering the New Covenant" and Ratzlaff's book "Sabbath in Christ"? They are wonderful Bible studies on the new covenant. Further, I HEARTILY endorse Praise God's recommendation of Bob George's book "Classic Christianity". It also one I've given to people. It is really good. We look forward to hearing more from you. With prayers for you as you study, Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 667 Registered: 7-2003  |
Wow, great post, Colleen! I learned something. I just love delving into the orignial languages. It takes a little work, but there is such wealth there. Chris | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 375 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow, Colleen, I had never made the connection until just now of Deuteronomy 18 and the Transfiguration! God was quoting Deuteronomy 18 at the Transfiguration and saying it was being fulfilled! Look at this:
Moses said, "you shall listen to Him" and not to Moses any longer. (Therefore anyone who does not listen to Jesus and cast out the Old Covenant is actually disobeying the Old Covenant/the Law now that Messiah has come!) Then at the Transfiguration God says what Moses had said, "listen to Him!" and takes away Moses (the Law).  The word "Him" has major emphasis in the Greek in Luke's account, according to the Discovery Bible. And the word "listen" is a command to do it as one's habit or life-style. They were no longer supposed to listen to Moses as their "habitual" guide, but to Jesus the Messiah, the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18! Wow! Jeremy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 668 Registered: 7-2003 |
Really great stuff! I hadn't caught the link to Deut. 18 before either. Awesome! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 169 Registered: 7-2004 |
This is really exciting information. Thanks, Schasc, for asking the original question. Got any more? The people on this site never cease to amaze me. God has educated you guys directly. He is such a wonderful Saviour. Belva | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 68 Registered: 12-2004 |
Schac, I am certainly not as eloquent as others, but my take on this whole thing centers around my 25 years spent in Adventist Education. I am out now, but looking back, I remember dealing with rules, particularly in boarding schools. One of the things that really bothered me, was social interaction between students. I mean try telling 18 year old Seniors that somehow holding hands is "bad" and putting them on social. That just isn't real world. But at the same time, 14 year old freshmen girls have an unrealistic view of love and just can't handle the physical side of a relationship. Anyway this post isn't about social interaction of teenagers but about the law. My application is this... God's love of Israel was evident in that, just like today, he took a very ignorant people and met them where they were. Gave them very rigid, strict rules, enforced with severe penalties, because they couldn't understand the type of relationship that he wanted to have with them. I feel that the purpose was to move them toward God's love and at the same time preserve their right to choose. You might say they were in need of a strict social and moral code to go by, just like 8th -10th graders. The children of Israel, never grew past it. The rules became more important than the lesson they were supposed to teach. My understanding is that the Jews often referred to the law as the yoke. Paul calls it a yoke that we couldn't keep. I think when Jesus tells us that his yoke is easy and his burden is light, he is telling us that the checklist religion of legalism isn't what he had in mind. He wanted a more mature relationship. Our mens bible study has been going through the bible a book a week. When you do that you get the bigger themes. One thing that really amazes me, is that the basic theme of the new testament, and if you go back and look at it, the old testament is love. Now I know that sounds simple, but it comes through so clearly in the new testament. And when you add into the mix texts like Micah 6:6-8, where it is clear that God wants something more than sacrifice and legalistic behavior you get the hint that the relationship that God desires is based not on the law, but on love. Back to boarding school, I dreamed of a social contract with my students that would allow them to be rewarded for positive behaviors and limit their reward for inappropriate behavior. How else will maturing teens learn to live in the real world. I am tired of kids going of the deep end, with sex or other inappropriate behavior, because we have isolated them in a world of abnormal behavior standards. Preaching again, sorry, God wants to have a mature relationship with each of us, based on love. Love motivating us to be his hands and feet. This is what God is calling us to, not a life spent in determining the finer point of the law, or what is correct to do on Sabbath. I love my NLT bible check out this... 1 John 5:13,18-21 "I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son God, so that you may know you have eternal life. ... We know that God's children do not make a practice of sinning, for God's Son hold them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them. We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life. Dear children, keep away from anything that might take God's place in your hearts." | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanx for all your input.........I do have more texts but I will probably save them for another post. I want to study these ones that I presented in light with what you all said. I really do appreciate all your posts. Goldenbear, I could totally relate to what you were saying about boarding school. I taught at one for 8 years.......in fact I think it is in the state you are from if my info is correct. I would drive me crazy all the rules and regs we had to enforce. It is not as bad at the day academy I am now at, but we still have our issues that send me batty! oH WELL! Thanks again yours in christ schasc | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2005 |
Colleen: Have you read Kay Arthur's book called Our Covenant God? It's very good--covers "covenants" in the Bible from the beginning to the end in a very deep study. Now, regarding what you wrote about God's law being on our hearts: Is that how early OT people knew God's law? For example, Joseph knew he should not commit adultery--before the commandments. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1505 Registered: 12-2003 |
NO, Jan, I haven't read Kay Arthur's book. I've heard good things about her, though. And Jeremy, I hadn't caught that relationship between God's words and Deuteronomy 18, either. Wow! The law written on our hearts in the new covenant is, I believe, different--deeper--from what Joseph experienced. According to Romans 2:14 says that "Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the lawk, they are a law for themsleves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consicences also bearing witness, and their thyoughts now accusing, now even defending them." That same kind of conscience-knowing would be what Joseph had, since the law had not yet been given. In the new covenant, though, we have the Holy Spirit literally indwelling us, bringing our spirits to life and eternally connecting us to God. The Holy Spirit is the Living Law--He's not just God's imprint on our consciences. He IS God Himself in us. Through Him we have God's power, love, and law alive in us. Amazing, huh? Praise God!! Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 671 Registered: 7-2003 |
I think it's possible that the law of God is part of the imago dei. In other words, humans were originally created in the image of God and were made to reflect his communicable attributes. The imago dei was greatly defaced at the fall, but not completely erased. Humans still reflect, albeit poorly, the communicable attributes of God. Perhaps this is why nearly every culture has some form of ethics and morals with the most basic morality being fairly consistent across cultures (with the exceptions of the most wicked societies). The indwelling of the Holy Spirit begins to restore the imago dei in man. Part of that restoration is the writing of God's law in our hearts. The restoration of the imago dei is an ongoing process in this life, but will be completed in all believers at the return of Christ when He will perfect us in body, mind, and spirit. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1510 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great point, Chris. I think you're right. I hadn't thought of it quite that way before. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 60 Registered: 1-2003  |
Goldenbear, Thanks so much for that Scripture, I will be meditating on it for some time. 1 John 5:13,18-21 "I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son God, so that you may know you have eternal life. ... We know that God's children do not make a practice of sinning, for God's Son hold them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them. We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life. Dear children, keep away from anything that might take God's place in your hearts." Sorry I couldn't resist posting it again. It is that good. Richard | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2005 |
These explanations were very helpful. But since I am "obsessed" with understanding everything, please give me your opinions on why the ark of the covenant is in heaven. (Rev. 11:19) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 683 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jan, would you consider Revelation to be largely literal or largely symbolic? Assuming we agree that Revelation is symbolic apocalyptic literature, then we need to interpret Rev. 11:19 in the same way as we would the rest of book and not try to pull it out of its context and force an overly wooden literal meaning on this verse in isolation. Note that there is not some building in Heaven that is a bigger better version of the earthly temple as SDAs teach in their IJ doctrine. Rather the heavenly temple, the holy of holies is the very presences of God Himself (Heb. Ch. 9 & Rev. 21:22). I think Barnes is fairly good on Rev. 11:19: And the temple of God was opened in heaven. The temple of God at Jerusalem was a pattern of the heavenly one, or of heaven, Heb 8:1-5. In that temple God was supposed to reside by the visible symbol of his presence--the Shekinah--in the holy of holies. See Barnes "Heb 9:7". Thus God dwells in heaven, as in a holy temple, of which that on earth was the emblem. When it is said that that was "opened in heaven," the meaning is, that John was permitted, as it were, to look into heaven, the abode of God, and to see him in his glory. And there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament. See Barnes "Heb 9:4". That is, the very interior of heaven was laid open, and John was permitted to witness what was transacted in its obscurest recesses, and what were its most hidden mysteries. It will be remembered, as an illustration of the correctness of this view of the meaning of the verse, and of its proper place in the divisions of the book--assigning it as the opening verse of a new series of visions--that in the first series of visions we have a statement remarkably similar to this, Rev 4:1: "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven;" that is, there was, as it were, an opening made into heaven, so that John was permitted to look in and see what was occurring there. The same idea is expressed substantially here, by saying that the very interior of the sacred temple where God resides was "opened in heaven," so that John was permitted to look in and see what was transacted in his very presence. This may confirm the idea that this portion of the Apocalypse refers rather to the internal affairs of the church, or the church itself--for of this the temple was the proper emblem. Then appropriately follows the series of visions describing, as in the former case, what was to occur in future times: this series referring to the internal affairs of the church, as the former did mainly to what would outwardly affect its form and condition. And there were lightnings, etc. Symbolic of the awful presence of God, and of his majesty and glory, as in the commencement of the first series-of visions. See Barnes "Rev 4:5". The similarity of the symbols of the Divine Majesty in the two cases may also serve to confirm the supposition that this is the beginning of a new series of visions. And an earthquake. Also a symbol of the Divine Majesty, and perhaps of the great convulsions that were to occur under this series of visions. Compare See Barnes "Rev 6:12". Thus, in the sublime description of God in Ps 18:7, "Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth." So in Ex 19:18, "And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke--and the whole mount quaked greatly." Compare Am 8:8-9; Joe 2:10. And great hail. Also an emblem of the presence and majesty of God, perhaps with the accompanying idea that he would overwhelm and punish his enemies. So in Ps 18:13, "The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice: hailstones and coals of fire." So also Job 38:22-23:-- "Hast thou entered into the treasures of snow? Or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail? Which I have reserved against the time of trouble. Against the day of battle and war?" So in Ps 105:32: "He gave them hail for rain. And flaming fire in their land." Compare Ps 78:48 Isa 30:30 Eze 38:22. óBarnes' Notes on the New Testament Chris | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2005 |
Earth to Chris: WHEW! I guess I was expecting a simpler answer, such as,"Maybe God likes antique furniture." After 2 aspirin and a short nap, I'll try to make some sense of your scholarly reponse! (ha) Thanks. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 687 Registered: 7-2003 |
The simple version is that what John is being shown is not a literal temple building in heaven with a literal most holy place. John is being shown a vision that is emblematic of what Heaven really is. Heaven is the abode of God, the very presence of God, the most holy place in the universe. The shekinah glory that dwelled over the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant in the most holy place in the Israelite's temple was only a shadow of the reality of God's presence in Heaven. The symbolism used Rev. 11 uses old testament types and shadows to convey information about heavenly realities. This use of OT language and symbols is something we see used extensively throughout the book of Revelation. In fact, a majority of the book consist of quotes, paraphrase, and allusions to the OT. But to take these OT symbols and try to make them literal, instead of looking past the symbol to the reality, would be to completely misunderstand apocalyptic literature. Does that help? Chris | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2005 |
Got it. What you've written here makes perfect sense; I do appreciate your "breaking down" the Barnes commentary, however! I went to a Revelation workshop a few weeks ago that was attempting to "prove" the importance of the 10 commandments by reference to the Ark in Revelation. Do you have any suggestions for a great book on Revelation? I'm still reading too much of it through my Adventist glasses. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 67 Registered: 1-2003 |
Chris thanks for the Cliff Notes version, now I'll go back and read the longer version. Richard PS: I almost missed your email to me among all the other "trash" I get. Thanks for your email address I'll try to get back to you. Where are you located? Anywhere near your sister and me? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 688 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jan, the absolute best book I can recommend on Revelation is called: "Revelation: Four Views: A Parallel Commentary", Edited by Steven Gregg. You can find it by clicking HERE. This book is very even-handed. It does not attempt to convince you of one particular view, but in a fair and balanced way compiles the views of commentators from each of the four major camps, then presents them as a parallel verse by verse commentary. This book is an invaluable refrence work that belongs on the bookshelf of anyone that has an interest in eschatology and yet it allows you to grapple with the various views and make up your own mind. I think that if everyone read this book they would be a lot less dogmatic about their own particular view and have more respect for some of the competing interpretations. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 689 Registered: 7-2003 |
Seeker, no I'm no where close to CA. I'm in Lincoln, NE. Chris | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2005 |
Thanks, Chris. It's exactly what I've been looking for. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 157 Registered: 5-2004  |
Also, an interesting text regarding the Ark of Covenant is Jeremiah 3:15-16 "Then I will give you shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you on knowledge and understanding. It shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss it, nor will it be made again. " If the Ark will never be remembered again nor made, how can it, by it's actual presence be in Heaven? The Revelation reference to the ark has to be symbolic about what the ark represents of God. |
