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Velo1
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Username: Velo1

Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 7:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear members:

Iíve been lurking and reading the forum for about eight months now and have found it very helpful. Iíd like to share the e-mail I sent to the author of the above article in the current issue of the Review <http://www.adventistreview.org/2005-1509/story2.html> as it contains the the same information that Iíd like to share with the group to introduce myself.

I sent the following e-mail (slightly modified for the forum) to the author and would welcome any of the forum members' thoughts:

Dr. Drumm:

I recently read the above article in the Adventist Review online in which you wrote, ìOur number one problem is that we think the message of the church, which we believe to be a true and accurate message, is all people need.î Your article prompted me to send you a quick note to briefly share my experiences with the churchís message.

Iíve attended a Seventh-day Adventist church for the past year with a friend of mine who is a ìnewly-baptizedî member. The people in her church are very friendly, welcoming and warm. I have also attended Sabbath School lessons with her and found her group leader to be equally warm and caring.

In the past year the Pastor spent approximately four months preaching on the subject of Daniel and Revelation where he covered everything from the Heavenly Sanctuary, the Investigative Judgment, the Antichrist and the Mark of the Beast. Recordings of his sermons were also available from the church and I was able to obtain these for additional study.

While studying his message, I would study the Bible verses he quoted and research the extra-Biblical support he presented in support of his conclusions. Unfortunately, I discovered that is sermons were riddled with inaccurate and incomplete statements supporting these conclusions.

My preferred method to perform this research is to take my Bible and laptop to a large university with a wireless internet connection. From this workspace, I can listen to the sermons as well as have access to a vast array of history books as well as the libraryís historical databases and other on-line information sources. It is amazing how much information one can have at their disposal in this type of environment. Additionally, the ability to contact authors and professors (such as you) from around the world via e-mail and receive responses back within hours is truly amazing!

I have met with the Pastor on two occasions to discuss this with him in person, and I am preparing a consultant-type report of my observationsÖmostly for my benefit that I will share with him as well.

The point Iíd like to make is that even in a warm, caring and loving churchÖ from my (admittedly amateurish) viewpoint, it IS the message that turns me away from Seventh-day Adventism. In this day and age the information used to support the message is just too easy to verifyÖthe simple fact that I can reply to you within minutes after reading your article is one example of this.

I realize from his sermons that one can easily dismiss me as one who is ìdrunk with the wine of Babylonî, or ìnot approaching the scriptures with humilityî, which makes me ìincapable of understanding Biblical prophecyî. For these reasons, I feel powerless to speak with my friend about my research, but I pray that the Holy Spirit gives me the words to have this discussion in the future. I also pray that she studies the Seventh-day Adventist message for herself. Perhaps thatís what the younger generation of Adventistís are doing for themselves.

Once again, to me at leastÖthe message DOES matter.



Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 263
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 7:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Velo1. We are happy to have you out of lurk mode. You are SO right. The message matters, otherwise, why have the SDA church in the first place?

My guess is that you'll get no response. I would be interested in hearing the response of the local pastor when you met with him. Perhaps you are there to plant some seeds!

Praise God...
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 665
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Velo! Excellent letter. You are dead-on in saying that the message counts very much. It is the message itself that caused most of us to feel compelled by conscience to leave. I would be very interested in reading your analysis when you complete it. I hope you will share it with us as well.

Chris
Esther
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Username: Esther

Post Number: 149
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Velo!
Praise God that He inspired you to search for yourself and He led you to answers about Adventism. I found your letter very insightful and would be interested in the reply you get as well. Since you've been shadowing here, I'm sure you know that many of us studied our way out as we realized the "message" wasn't all it was cracked up to be.
Carol_2
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Username: Carol_2

Post Number: 273
Registered: 2-2002


Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A warm welcome Velo!

Thanks for sharing. We look forward to hearing more from you, and would love to read your analysis when it's finished.

We will keep your friend in prayer, and that God will give you the words to say, and most of all when to say them.
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 166
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Once again, Welcome, Velo1.

It is so The Message. I walked away from an SDA church that was filled with friendly people (at least they were friendly until I walked away) and I still have dear friends who believe the SDA way. Once a person opens their eyes to the inconsistencies it is impossible to remain without creating a stir.

Please let us hear more from you in the future. How did you come to learn about SDA's (through your friend, of course, but is there more than that), what your background is, and how were you shielded against the confusion of SDAism other than your inquisitive mind? Do you already have a mainstream Christian background?

Until we hear from you again, God's blessings on your research and contacts with people still under the Adventist umbrella.

Belva
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1604
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Velo, You wrote a great letter. I will go and read the article you put the link to later. Welcome. I hope you can help your friend see truth before she's totally so deep into Adventism that she would truly be trapped in the pit of cultism. I, too am hoping to read your paper after it's finished. I hope you share it. Why not share a capy with each person in the congreation? After attending this long I'm sure many will be wondering how come you aren't there anymore.
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 500
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read the article and it pretty much confirmed something I have had in the back of my mind about SDAism for a while...it is all head knowledge and none heart knowledge (which comes from the Holy Spirit). All you have to do is set foot in a Spirit-filled church to know the difference. SDAism doesn't have it.
Greg
Registered user
Username: Greg

Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Velo1,

Welcome and thank you very much for posting. You nailed the reason that many of us have left otherwise friedly congregations and family to pursue an unfettered, Biblical understanding of Christ and the salvation that belief in Him brings. It's not just about being "nice". It's about being transformed by the power of God, through Jesus' death on the cross and the indwelling Holy Spirit. By spending so much time "being right" about doctrines that rely on extra-Biblical support, the Adventist church has itself walked away from the very core of the gospel message. No amount of "niceness" will keep people in the church when the foundation is built on unsound beliefs. The gospel message is enough to bring people into the church and keep them there.

Again, welcome, and I look forward to reading your report when you have completed it.

Greg
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1605
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read the article. I think I found the problem. In the section of the article where he asks the minister to make three headings on the chalkboard and lable them "The Church, "The Jones Family" "Jesus" and then have people give answers to describe each of those he says the heading "The Church" will have one group of answers whereas the headings "the Jones Family" and "Jesus" will have the same answers to describe them. Therein lyes the problem. The Jones family and Jesus need different descriptive words. Did you notice under the heading "Jesus" words such as Saviour, Redeemer, Messiah, True God of True God, Alpha and Omega, A to Z, The First and the Last, etc. were not given to discribe Jesus? Jesus was described in the same words as the Jones family-nice, foregiving, helpful, etc. Yep, that is the problem. It is the message. According to the SDA teaching/understanding of Jesus He is the same as the Joneses.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1501
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Velo! What a great letter--I'm also eager to hear more of your research and also whether or not you hear back from Dr.Drumm.

You're so right about the "message". It's flawed, and I can't condone it by keeping my name on the membership roles.

We look forward to hearing more!

Colleen
Hrobinsonw
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Username: Hrobinsonw

Post Number: 143
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like the the letter Velo1, whenever you feel like sharing your research I am all ears.
Velo1
Registered user
Username: Velo1

Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you all for the replies, and welcome.

I did receive a reply from one of the authors. They thanked me for my feedback and expressed empathy for my viewpoint. I truly appreciated their response.

Also, thank you for your interest in my research/ documentation. This motivates me to put it in a presentable/ completed form. I will certainly keep you all in mind as an audience. My target audience is really one person for now, (I guess two if you count the pastor) but I have done some fairly extensive research that I do feel compelled to share either via an internet site, e-book or other method.

Thanks again, Iíll share more about my personal experiences later.
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 325
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Velo1,

A hearty FAF welcome! I look forward your participation in our discussions. Please share your testimony with us.

Dennis Fischer
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 1118
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Velo1,
You are welcome here. We are glad you came out from behind the door. Let us know more about you, when you are ready.
Every time a lurker makes themself know, I cannot belp but see how awesome God is.
Diana
Weimarred
Registered user
Username: Weimarred

Post Number: 35
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Velo1!

I think your thinking is bang on!

I find it hard to understand how some religious people can divorce their message from their daily lives. If our message is contradictary, incomlete, or even bogus, sooner or later it will creep up in our lives.

We'll end up like the computer Hal in Space Odysey: very conflicted, and not the best company to be around!
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 220
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 7:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SO many times I have heard that i must have rejected the message of the SDA church because I "did not understand" it, or I must have been hurt emotionally by the SDA church members that I met.
And the honest truth is that it was my research into the doctrines, and the absurdities and inconsistencies with the Gospel message that i found therein, that made me reject it, having studied it for 4 years in earnest. In fact, the more I study and the more I know, the more obvious the arrors become. I think the only way to actually swallow it would be NOT to study, to simply yourself to be fed SDAism by the spoonful from the pulpit instead, while avoiding study of the Scriptures all together.

If anyone discovers a way to convince the SDAs that people CAN and DO reject their message for biblical reasons, let me know!
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 188
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Honey, we are working on it all over the internet!
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1546
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tanya, you echo all our thoughts/feelings about this issue!

It's so frustrating not to be HEARD when we tell our experiences. That dismissal of our integrity by labeling it "hurt feelings" or "lack of true understanding" is part of the result of the veil that covers their hearts until they turn to Christ (2 Cor. 3:14).

Belva et al, thank you for your strength and determination to present Christ--over and over and over if necessay!

Colleen
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1648
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tealeaves, I read where you wrote that SDA's say to you that you must be rejecting the SDA message because you don't understand it. Yeah, I have had so many SDA's (kinfolks and acquaintences) tell me the exact same thing. I finily have just started answering them back with this, "Yeah, you are so right. The more I study the SDA teachings compared to what the Bibke says the less I understand how the two can be in harmony. You are right. The SDA message makes no sense when put next to the Bible so I'll go with the Bible." That generally ends the discussion with them. They just "know" I've chosen to be part of The Beast and communication pretty much ceases.
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast

Post Number: 303
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ironic isn't it? Everyone I know who left did so precisely and exclusively BECAUSE they understand the SDA message.

A complete and unfettered understanding of the message is exactly what is driving SDA's away from it.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1552
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, so true, Freeatlast!

It really is ironic.

Colleen
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1655
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 2:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What I try to make clear to the SDA's is that I do understand the SDA teachings. I understand the SDA teachings and the Bible do not agree. Therefore I choose to go with the Bible. I honestly do believe I have a pretty good understanding of SDA teachings and they are not in harmony with Bibical teachings. Also, there are too many inconsistancies within Adventism, that is what I am referring to when I say SDA'ism makes no sense. In one place EGW will say one thing on any given subject and then in another writing of hers she'll say the opposite. #17 of the fundamentals plus at least one of the baptism vows is adhearance to EGW, yet many SDA's themselves just try to shine her on saying she is of no concensequence in their beliefs, that somehow they read and read their Bibles and always the Bible and EGW line up exactialy so they don't need EGW to know the SDA is right. It's very circular.

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