| Author | Message | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 200 Registered: 9-2004 |
No, I always appreciate the honest comments here. I know C.. He has no reason to "put up a front" with me b/c we know each other. I am not an outsider to him. If he said he thinks he would go to hell for not keeping it, then he means it. If 2 months later, he says he no longer thinks that way, he means it. He has viewed himself as non-denominational for a few years now but as also a "sabbath-keeper". He doesn't consider himself SDA but non-denom.. He does consider himself in many ways different and separate from SDA people. Remember, he attended church with me for 10 months on Sundays. I do not have my hopes up, or all my eggs in one basket, but the Lord is working on Him through C's studying. And mind you, he has always listened to DAvid Jeremiah, Joyce Meyer, Charles Stanley, TD Jakes and the like who are all non-denoms. It's important to note that they "became" SDA when he was around 10. But continued to go to both non SDA and SDA churches also. (his mother was baptist) Not defending, just trying to give you a more complete idea of what I am dealing with. And yes, no one leaves in 2 years, completely anyway. But he has for a few years, contemplated and questioned the ideas of the church, which is why he became a non-denom christian long before he met me. No, he's not where you guys are, but since you all were once where he was, you should try hard to remember how all those little steps added up to you coming to the full understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. THAT is what will do the rest of leading him out! | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 201 Registered: 9-2004 |
FYIGreg, I have never ever seen C never witness about the goodness of Jesus either. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 257 Registered: 3-2004  |
Greg, Iím sorry to say it but I believe your evangelical friends are into massive denial. They are trying to change a system that is hierarchal in nature, not congregational. There is no allowance within the doctrinal structures to make the decisions that they have made. Consequently, even though they mean well, they are a big part of the deception and deceit that is so rampant in Adventism. What about John and Mary who become members of their church and then get transferred to Chicago and start attending the SDA church there? Are they going to find grace? Most probably notóor a very limited version that tries to blend law and grace. Another thing that it seems people do not realize is the international makeup of the SDA church. With the GC coming up, the NAD is not going to be able to demand that things be done the way they want. Internationally, churches like SDA have uneducated members that have clung to the legalism of a system that will educate them and build them a church building. I have no proof, but if itís anything like the Caribbean where I have traveled and met SDAs, their legalism is more extreme than that of the US. Tracey, donít get discouraged. The good is that C is studying. Another plus is him saying ìI donít knowî which is a big step for an Adventist. However, the Sabbath issue is not really settled as long as itís still the seventh day. Can he keep his Sabbath now on a Tuesday, or a Friday or a Sunday? I think not. Until he could do so and go to Walmart Saturday morning or some other activity that is out of his norm, he is still bound to the Sabbath. Probably he may still be looking at the seventh day as some sort of a Creation ordinance as God sanctified it. Until itís all straightened out in his mind, you may find him wavering back and forth. This isnít an easy thing as you well know. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2005 |
Praisegod, you raise another issue that has been on my mind recently. From a cultural standpoint, certain cultures naturally gravitate to a legalistic view of God more than others. I have had occasion to visit some "Asian-Adventist" churches and they are some of the most legalistic Adventists I've come across. They view the Adventist church as a way to legitimize their legalistic framework of the world and God. By joining a religion that emphasizes works-based theology and law-keeping, they can satisfy the mental checklist in their mind of "how to be right with God" while projecting an outward image of perfect obedience. This image is held up in those highly rigid cultures as a sign of perfection/Godliness to which all should aspire. The cultural norms therefore feed the choice of religion--no doubt the reason why Adventism is flourishing in parts of the world while it is dying in others. By the way, why does Adventism need cultural "sub-churches" in America anyway? Isn't the gospel message universal? I understand there are language barriers for some, but from my observations, these churches mostly exist to propegate their own "brand" of Adventism framed in the context of their cultural norms. The questions raised in this thread would make great doctoral dissertation theses. I can't help but think someone has already addressed these in an "liberal" Adventist college/university or publication. If anyone knows of such material, I'd love to hear about it. Maybe what we really need is a new "95 theses" ala Martin Luther but given to the modern Adventist church. Greg | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 210 Registered: 7-2004  |
Tracey, Thanks for reminding us of "all those little steps added up to you coming to the full understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ." You are right about that. There are so many SDA's I know of who are exactly where I was for many years--only one or two steps away from seeing reality and leaving SDAism. And I'm pretty sure there is not one person who knew me, even my own husband, who ever believed I'd leave the SDA church one day. I think it's the one or two last steps that are the hardest. For me, the last step was to truly renounce EGW and her influence as a false prophet. I don't know what took so long for me to get to that spot, but when I did, then I could finally see how the whole SDA picture was all tied together because of EGW. Praise God for any and all steps that C takes! Only He knows the timetable and end result. We'll keep praying... | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 202 Registered: 9-2004 |
Amen to that Sheryl, and no, thank You! ; ) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1491 Registered: 12-2003  |
Greg, interesting observations. When I was still working for Adventist Today, they openly held the position that Adventism was a large umbrella, big enough to shelter countless theological variations under its shade. Adventism was not about doctrinal disputes; it was about a shared history, the Sabbath, a world view, loyalty to this organization that gave them identity. Conservative and liberal--all can exist under this umbrella of Adventism. The editor was (and still is) a pastor in the Washington conference. His view is, I'm finding, quite prevalent among Adventists--especially those who consider themselves "enlightened" or "evangelical" or "liberal" or "intellectual". The pastors you mention really have convinced themselves they don't need to worry about the parts of Adventism that are inconsistent with their own comfort zones or theological understandings. They can rationalize till the cows come home--and never actually deal with the real issues. The phenomenon reminds me of Dale Ratzlaff's quote: "There are only two kinds of Adventists: the deceived and the dishonest." As time passes I am more and more firmly convinced he is right. Those who think they can bury Ellen and the traditional IJ and remnant theology in the back closet and get on with life are completely deceiving themselves. If, for example, remnant theology is incorrect, Ellen is not needed, and the IJ is an unnecessary confusion, why do they need to remain ADventist at all? Is it the Sabbath? If they declare the Sabbath is not "necessary", would they be willing to worship on any other day? If not, why not? If they've closeted Ellen and declared remnantism defunct, what makes them think they still need to worship on Saturday? If they use the Bible to defend their positions, what about the texts that say Jesus fulfilled the law, we are to let no one judge of for days we keep, the Sabbath is a shadow of Christ, etc? Ultimately, their arugments break down. As much as they might think they're not bound to Ellen, still they end up using the Bible to support their viewpoint in distinctly Adventist ways--and as Ellen used it. As long as they thing they've put Ellen in her proper place without renouncing her, they are still bound to her. As Raven said, "For me, the last step was to truly renounce EGW and her influence as a false prophet. I don't know what took so long for me to get to that spot, but when I did, then I could finally see how the whole SDA picture was all tied together because of EGW." She has explained it all. Colleen | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 440 Registered: 6-2002 |
I, too, would like to comment on how appropriate Raven's words were when she posted: "For me, the last step was to truly renounce EGW and her influence as a false prophet. I don't know what took so long for me to get to that spot, but when I did, then I could finally see how the whole SDA picture was all tied together because of EGW." Episodes that illustrated how key Ellen White is to the Seventh-day Adventist church happened to me within the last two years. I had come to the conclusion that I could no longer attend SDA worship services and so informed my wife. Her response was that I should be able to attend because it was no different than any mainstream Protestant service and that the distinctive theology of Adventism was never preached in the service. I think that she honestly believed that. Most of us here know that is far from the truth. I certainly knew it based on past attendance. "Ellenisms" are always popping up in the service, often without attribution and spoken in a way that sounds very "Bible-esque." My wife's church is very liberal/evangelical and one of the pastors had a talk with me where he tried to convince me that "we (the more advanced theologians) don't even believe those things anymore" and that I should know that those theologies are just anachronistic throw-backs that are not taken seriously anymore. What is more, when I pointed out official General Conference policy that would seriously dispute his positions, he downplayed their authority. What a load of hocus-pocus, self-delusional double-talk! Make no mistake:
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| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 208 Registered: 7-2004  |
Just for the record, I can verify that her statement is true. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1599 Registered: 11-2002 |
Greg, The SDa church at it's very core draws those who are prone to believe in wacko conspirisy theories. Didn't you know there are Jesuit infilterators in every SDA church? My historic SDA neighbor will not even attend the local SDa church, hasn't for years because according to her most the congreation is Jesuit infilterators and only a few of the people who attend there are real SDA's and those true SDA's should stop attending the SDA church so they aren't influenced by the Jesuits anymore. Now, did that make any sense at all? | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 204 Registered: 9-2004 |
FYI, C says that I misunderstood him when he said the sabbath wasn't a salvation issue for him anymore. He now says he meant for those that do not believe in it, it won't cost them their salvation. But for him (misunderstanding/reading/interpreting scripture), if he doesn't keep it, he is willfully sinning therefore can go to hell. I told him that scripture about willfully sinning doesn't refer to the sabbath, and he needs to read it again because you have made it a salvation issue if you think you will go to hell if you don't keep it. So, for those of you that rained on my parade, your rain was justified. And I hate I ever learned about this stupid cult and everything. I am hurt and I am tired and I don't care anymore. What am I supposed to do now, be glad that you all were correct? I don't think so. My heart is broken. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 128 Registered: 8-2004 |
Oh Tracy! I'm so sorry! SDA's are so used to having different standards for measuring different people I don't think many of them even notice when they are doing it! "It's ok YOU to do that (you pagan, you! someday you will be enlightened!), but I never could!" I know many who believe that there are many protestants who will be saved even though they don't 'keep the Sabbath', but anyone who has 'been shown' the 'Sabbath truth' and doesn't accept it will be lost, especially if they became SDA and then left. And this is regardless of whether that person has accepted Jesus as his/her personal Savior and Lord or not. In fact some teach (they get this from one of EGW's visions) that anyone who has not accepted the Investigative Judgment and prays to God is actually praying to Satan - who has taken over the the 'Holy Place' now that Jesus has moved into the 'Most Holy Place' and left the 'Holy Place' empty. It's no wonder that so many SDAs are scared to investigate anything outside of Adventism as potentially right. They might get their prayers for truth answered from the wrong 'apartment'! (It's likely that's what Pastor O'Fill was referring to when he remarked that sometimes Satan answers prayer) I sympathize with your broken heartedness and am holding you up to Our Father in Heaven! May He comfort you indeed, and work mightily in C as well! helovesme2 | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 662 Registered: 7-2003  |
Tracey, I am so sorry. The only reason I said anything is because I am familiar with Adventist-speak and thought processes and I know what a huge language barriar there is. I just didn't want you to be hurt by the language meaning something different from what it sounded like. Perhaps such pain is inevitable when dealing with a group like this. For what it's worth, I once spoke very similar words and attached very similar meanings to them and yet the Lord still led me out of bondage and away from my delusion. Continue to pray for C, but guard your heart and always be aware that there is a very real language barriar that must be overcome if you are going to really communicate. It is good that you clarified this point with him. That was the right thing to do and it is the beginning of better understanding. Chris | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 258 Registered: 3-2004 |
(((Tracey))) Now is the time to go back and realize how God has used you. You have been given very specific directions from the Holy Spirit in the past and you have been given dreams directly from God. Please don't forget that while walking through this wilderness. For some reason, rather than directing you away from a relationship with a SDA, God allowed it to happen to you--you who have the heart and mind to research and lovingly confront. Now that you are feeling you are at a crossroads with this relationship, remember that we are here to support and pray for you. Continue to guard your heart as you seek to know the next move that God would have you make as you continue to reveal Jesus and the true Gospel wherever you go. There is no straight line out of Adventism. It's little by little, two steps forward and one step backward. All of us probably can see ourselves to some extent or another in C. Been thre, done that, but God brought us out. Praise God... | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 762 Registered: 7-2003  |
Tracey, my dear sister in Christ. There is no "glory" or gain in being right in this environment. I personally understand very much what your heart wants...and am in no place to tell you what "God" wants for you.... But I do know what scripture says about being unequally yoked, and no matter what you sense, if you're sensing something that would lead you into an unequally yoking, you have to consider the legitimacy of that leading. Be C's friend, care about him even, but set some firm boundaries for your own protection. I used to hope I planted seeds with B, but he only came up with new justifications for old teachings. Really, there has not been a single thing changed in 5 years...and one son. I can't predict your situation, but the indoctrination into this religion is very thorough ... and I would think quite difficult to think everything you have learned your whole life is a lie. I think it would be quite a lot to process. Though I am no longer locked in the emotional relationship with B personally, I am tied to this religion for the rest of my life because of our son. I am SOOO sorry you're hurt. Believe me when I say I've been where you are. I've had the hope and I've had it shattered. It is so easy to underestimate the grips of this religion. Those of us from the outside can't comprehend fully what it's like. That's why you have to look out for yourself. Grieve, and talk as often as you need. I wish I could say what you want to hear. Guard your heart. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1495 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tracey, I am so sorry. I know how deflated you must feel. It's an indescribable pain when someone you love actually loves a worldview more than you--or any Person. God allowed your paths to cross--and God is using you in C's life. I echo Praise God above--remember God's direct guidance to you. Allow Him to speak through you when He brings the occasions, and also guard your heart. It is impossible to explain how this Adventist "Thing" looks from the inside. It's harder to give up than to give up a person--perhaps because it requires giving up yourself. I am praying for you and for C. God's plans for you are to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11) And He's not finished with C, either! Let Him carry you in this deep disappointment--and let Him carry the heartbreak with you. You are loved! Colleen | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 441 Registered: 6-2002 |
Tracy, please forgive me if my previous post contributed to your thinking that some here would gloat. I cannot speak for everyone, but I truly believe that most of us make strong statements here to express our own pain, not to hurt others. Furthermore, we tend to confront the deceptions that fooled us in the same way it we believe it might have fooled you. That can be the wrong choice on our part. My primary objective, when I discuss SDA deceptions (redefinitions, dangerous theology, and so on) is to reinforce people who might suspect the problems but need support. I do not revel in your sorrow. I wish I could take it away in an instant. I have felt that kind of sorrow (although my experience is rather different than yours). I would not wish that on anyone, even a hardcore historic SDA activist, . . . except that it might be part of how one moves to freedom. We must grieve our losses, even if it is better that we have lost what we grieve. No one but God knows where this will lead for you. For my part, I wish you peace. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1111 Registered: 3-2004  |
Tracey, My younger sister in Christ, I am so sorry for your pain. But through all the pain, God is holding you in His awesome arms and has them around you. He did not bring you this far to drop you. It may feel like it, but feelings are not fact. Feelings are important, but God will take care of those. God still has a hold of you and will carry you until He knows you can stand again. We on this forum belonged to a church that we did not even know existed as it does. I know I am learning more every day what kind of church I belonged to. The Bible says to be thankful in all things. I am sure you do not want to think of being thankful at this moment in time, but give it a try. It will keep your mind on God. What ever you do, GOD IS CARRYING YOU. YOU ARE IN HIS AWESOME HANDS AND ARMS. HE WILL NOT DROP YOU. Keep coming back to unload here. We do understand having come from the background "C" has. I love you much and you are in my prayers every day. With much love, you sister in Christ. Diana | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 205 Registered: 9-2004 |
Everyone -- I'm sorry. I think, well, I know my post was blaming you guys and being angry with you and I just took it out because you guys are all that I have I guess that truly know about this stuff. I really am sorry and please forgive. I've settled down and reading all of your posts, I can only cry and feel the love in your replies to me and I know that no one was gloating or glorying in C's deception. I am so hurt that he had his own definition <once again> and just wanted you guys to be wrong this time. I count on you b/c I know that you really know. I suppose I wanted to believe (if only for yesterday) that he was different from you. And yes, there are varying degrees in here of experiences and knowledge, I know that you really do understand him (without meeting him) better than even I do and that hurts me so much. But listen, I was a little snide and I really do appreciate the website, you, that open up and share your experiences and I am grateful for you. I really am sorry for my post. I cried as I read each and every post. I would've written earlier, but I couldn't face this yet. Heloves me -- I appreciate your sympathy and the prayer of comfort. PraiseGod -- thank you for the hug and the reminder, your words are just about a Word of Knowledge for my life.. I will hold on to them b/c I so need to know my next move from the Lord. Chris - Your point is taken..I agree with you, I really do. I know I have to guard my heart. thank you Chris, I do need your honesty. Melissa -- I was saying within myself "different opinions on 1 issue doesn't make us un= yoked" I know it's bigger than that so I don't know why I let myself think that for a couple of days. It's hard Melissa, I have been absitinate for 15 years, he is a virgin, kind, gentle, handsome : ) and I thought this is the guy for me.. So many things match up for me with him, where other christian guys just didn't. I just hadn't met such a wonderful Christian man like him. Doesn't matter, b/c you said I have to look out for myself and you are right. Guard my heart. thanks Colleen- I take comfort in you saying God allowed us to cross paths and that I am loved. I had to remind myself that C was rejecting the Word of God and not me. And what you said reminds me that if God allowed us to meet, He is with me now.. I initially felt alone. Thank you -- the ministry here is doing a great work for the kingdom. Jerry -- I know that you don't revel in anyone's confusion of the gospel. I just cried when you said you would take it away in an instant. That is such a example of Godly love for your sister and sharing one another's burdens. Thank you for that. Diana -- You are like family to me in my heart, really. How profound to say "you belonged to a church that you didn't even know how it existed" It completely describes C and it tells me once again that you all do really understand this. I am going to give it a try to be thankful. I will remember your words that He will not drop me. Thanks for the love!  And one more thing, I apologize for making anyone feel bad or guilty today.. I am so sorry b/c I do need and love you all. We're in the same family and I know that if we never meet here, we will know one another in heaven and we can hug there! I really can't say what you all mean to me. The things that I share here, even my mother doesnt know or would understand. I share some stuff with a saved co-worker b/c she also works with me and C at the hospital. She has also been supportive and praying. But you are a unique, special group that really are what I need right now. I tell you that there is nothing better than being in a family in Christ. I praise God for all of you. You all also get a special prayer tonight. Thank you is so inadequate. I would go crazy if I couldn't get this stuff off of my mind and heart with you all. This website ministry and you "ministers" are a true blessing used by God. I love you! (and feeling a little better even!) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 663 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dear Tracey, Please know there is absolutely not an ounce of offense taken on my part to anything in your post. None. Your emotions are completely understandable and your pain comes through palpably. I too experience pain on at least a weekly basis because of loved ones still ensnared in Adventism. I can understand pain and frustration (and you can find several posts here where I've poured out my grief in a raw way). Dear Lord, I pray for Tracey tonight. I pray that through this forum 2 or 3 might come together in agreement as we collectively pray for Tracey. I pray that you will comfort our sister in Christ with the tangible presence of the Spirit. I pray that you will lead her and show her the plan you have for her life, a plan to prosper and not to harm. I pray for C that the veil might be lifted from his eyes, that love will overcome law. I pray that you will make all of this work for good in Tracey's life. In the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus, Amen. In love, your brother in Christ, Chris |
