| Author | Message | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 758 Registered: 7-2003  |
Since B is now in Florida with my son, I've been wondering how they view their Saturday activities in another city. See, they're staying in a hotel, and they're eating at resturants, and they've rented cars. Though they are not "spending" money (as in cash outlay) on "the sabbath", they are most definately staying in places that require other people to work for them to be there...and the expenses for their cars, food and lodging is accrued on Saturday whether they spent the money that day or not. It would seem that if the fact they haven't laid out cash justifies their expenses incurred on Saturday that they could use credit cards and do anything they want on Saturday. Then my weird thought process took me to day to day life. They use water, electricity, gas ... all expenses accrued when used. You can not use the phone on Saturday and say you didn't accrue any additional expenses, but if you use water on Saturday, you've spent money ... whether you laid out the cash or not. I have heard on here some will go to resturants and not think about it, but B and his family won't. B won't enter a store on Saturay, but he'll go stay at a hotel...which is another type of store...they sell rooms. It seems that's where you have to go to truly not "buy or sell" on the sabbath. Does any of this ever cross their minds? Or am I just thinking too much without a toddler to chase? | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 209 Registered: 7-2004  |
Your post made me smile, Melissa! These are the discussions I've heard between SDA's while I was an SDA. The extremely conservative SDA's wouldn't even stay in a hotel on Sabbath, and I've even heard of cases where some SDA's are careful when to mail things so they aren't making the postal service work on Sabbath. SDA's have always defined keeping the Sabbath to be refraining from "unnecessary" work. That's where it gets tricky and why so many differences can be found among SDA's. Everyone has a different definition as to what is or isn't "necessary." This is just one more area of controversy that helped me realize no SDA has a clue how to truly keep the Sabbath, and made me think about its relevancy today. It gets even more hair-splitting and ridiculous when one tries to figure out what activities children are allowed to do on the Sabbath. I still remember a few months before having our membership removed, we had an SDA family over for Sabbath afternoon. We were showing them around our house and their teenage son started playing darts. We thought they must be liberal about Sabbath-keeping, which was certainly okay with us. We suggested he might enjoy our foosball table. Immediately the mom said "Oh no, not on the Sabbath!" I asked her what the difference could be between darts and foosball, and she told me her son gets too wild and crazy with foosball. I've heard SDA's explain that the reason Sabbath keeping rules today are so varied and individualized is because the new covenant placed the 10 commandments in our heart, and so Sabbath keeping becomes a very personal experience and what is okay for one person might not be for another, etc. Supposedly, that keeps it from being "legalistic"! Instead, I think it just makes it more crazy-making, to borrow a Colleen expression. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1489 Registered: 12-2003  |
You're not thinking too much, Melissa--these issues are real questions they actually have to rationalize. Here's how it usually goes. Jesus told the Pharisees that healing people was more important than pulling an ox out of the ditch on the Sabbath--yet the Jews' Sabbath laws allowed for pulling an ox out of the ditch. Everyone would agree that they couldn't let the stranded ox die. Therefore, when a person is travelling and has no "home base" from which to operate, it's an "ox in the ditch" situation. Eating out is permissible when one would not otherwise be able to eat. Staying in a hotel on holy time is permissible when one would not otherwise have lodging. ADventists can rationalize a lot of behavior using the "ox in the ditch" argument. The question all this leads to, of course, is the one they seldom ask: If everyone really kept the Sabbath as Adventists think they should, who would be providing the restaurant and hotel services for the Sabbatarians with oxes in the ditches? And so it goes... Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1490 Registered: 12-2003 |
Raven--I got called away while I was writing my post above, so I didn't see your post before. You're so right about the lack of consensus about these Sabbath issues. That "law on the hearts" reason is one I don't remember hearing before, but wow, it's a good one! After all, it's completely relativistic and personal. Who can argue with what God has laid on your particualr heart? Sigh. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 760 Registered: 7-2003 |
Well, the difference in an "ox in a ditch" is that I would suspect that the ox didn't realize it was going into a ditch on the sabbath, and the Jew probably didn't drive the ox to the ditch intentionally. Going out of town, except in emergencies, would be something fairly "schedulable". I know it's a rationalization technique why what they're doing is okay and "correct", but it seems you could really go nuts with that one.... | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 211 Registered: 7-2004 |
Okay, I just have to tell another story about the strange variations in Sabbath-keeping! This is probably my earliest memory in personally witnessing inconsistencies. I think I was around 4 years old when the daughters of a newly converted SDA family needed to be babysat over the entire weekend by our family. These daughters were five or more years older than me. I remember how strange it was on Sabbath morning when the guests carefully and neatly turned their covers down so that the bed was completely unmade. My mom asked them to make their beds, and they said the had done it exactly the way their mom wanted it done, because making the bed was not allowed on Sabbath, but it had to be neat--that's why they went to all the trouble to carefully "unmake" it! My mom, who is a conservative, traditional SDA--yet very practical, couldn't even understand that one. She commented that if someone was going to go to all that work to make the bed so neat, it may as well get made at the same time! | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 295 Registered: 5-2002 |
It reminds me of the old "it's OK to ride your bike for exercise but not for fun", or the classic "wading is OK but swimming is not". Rationalization is the name of the game with Sabbath"keeping". Nobody truly keeps the Sabbath, certainly doesn't keep it HOLY, yet nobody inside SDAism dare acknowledge the real problem - the Sabbath was for Israel, not for the rest of mankind. They are trying to fit a square peg inside a round hole and the best they can do is sand off the edges so it sort of fits. As long as their personal conscience is clear in the matter and no "pagan" or "apostate protestant" puts the issue on the table, things operate just fine. But bring the issue up and just watch the rationalizations start to fly around the room! The gnats are strained down to the microscopic level yet the camels are swallowed - whole. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 203 Registered: 9-2004 |
I got one.. C washes his car and dishes on Saturday, eats at restaurants, talks on the phone, and goes to the malls. But what won't he do on Saturday? go to an amusement park, but the zoo is fine. whatever. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 496 Registered: 1-2003 |
My in-laws kids can ride their horses, barebacked only, and cannot make them sweat...only walk them around. Isn't that ridiculous! I am sure the pioneer horses sweated on Sabbath in Texas taking them to church! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 159 Registered: 7-2004 |
The comment about SDA pioneers and their horses made me wonder about something. Do you think the horses were hitched up before sunset on Friday so the believers didn't have to work at getting the horses into their harnesses. Never really thought about that one before. Having been around horses once in a while, I know a person can work up quite a sweat getting a horse into the traces. Belva | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 131 Registered: 2-2003 |
And this reminds me: when I first joined the church, I went on a women's retreat. Here we were staying at a resort and having meals served to us and our beds made. And they offered an exercise class on Saturday morning; the people I stayed with felt that was wrong. But going on a hayride that afternoon, which meant hiring someone, was OK?! | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 297 Registered: 5-2002 |
I never understood why it was just fine to make the Sabbath-honoring ladies like my mother clean up and wash the potluck dishes on Sabbath afternoon, but somehow it was wrong to make the pagans who had no appreciation for the Sabbath do it for us at a restaurant. | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2005 |
A couple of years ago I was on the school board here at our local church. A motion was brought to the floor to approve the 8th grade class trip to an amusement park about an hour and a half away from here. There were a few "nays" because, "You know what Sister White says about entertainment and amusements..." This was met by some of the dear sisters with nods of agreement and mutterings like, "Oh, that's right." The motion did pass but it really opened my eyes to the thinking of some in my church that I didn't realize still existed since I'd moved from a much more "liberal" part of the country to this more traditional, rigid way of thinking. I know this doesn't exactly coincide with the "working" posts here but seemed legalistic nonetheless. If it hadn't passed, that would have been fun trying to explain to 13 year-olds how evil roller coasters are while at the same time trying to make Ellen meaningful and relevant to them. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 370 Registered: 10-2004  |
I am certain Ellen would have voted a hearty "nay"!  Fun = sin according to EGW. Jeremy | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 75 Registered: 7-2004 |
OK, about the zoo. Long ago in a Sabbath School class, this very strict adventist was teaching and talking about how he and his family bought memberships to the zoo so they didn't have to pay on the Sabbath. I spoke up and said I thought that was silly, what is the big deal about handing over a fee to enter a park. He looked at me and said condescendingly, "Were you raised SDA?" and I said I was, and he replied "the girls are always the ones in the family to go bad" (I think his sister went "wild" and he remained conservative) This kind of nonsense is what makes me believe I am now "free". Jesus said his burden was light and His yoke is easy. I never could understand the jewelry thing, and why did my mom chop up things to go in a salad on Sabbath, but it was a sin to turn on the oven to put in a potato because that was "baking". It all seemed so absurd to me, but I know they were trying to keep the law the best that they possibly could. Sad really. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1106 Registered: 3-2004  |
I was very much aware of all the "no things" on sabbath. I did not want to raise my son that way, so I would take him outdoors in nature on sabbath, when the weather was nice. When we could not get out because of ice/snow, I read to him from books about nature and God. Or if we could get there I took him and a friend to the Smithonian Museum, Natural History museum. I never told him "we do not do that on Sabbath". I had too much of it when I was growing up. We had fun on Sabbath, because I was not always telling him no, we cannot do that on sabbath. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1598 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, I have been told that in the new covenant we now have the do's and don't written in our hrearts and the Holy Spirit will guide each person what he/she can do and must avoid. That's how they get around that one, the one of making a firm set of rules for everyone. EGW did say men should not shave on the Sabbath. When I pick up my mom from her Saturday going-to-church ordeal I sit in the parking lot and eyeball the men for their five o'clock shadow. I have decided most SDA men don't follow her counsil about not shavinbg on the Sabbath. I had a cousin who kept Sabbath. He was not SDA. He was Church of God (Seventh-day). However, on Fridays he would fill up his gas can and keep it in his trunk so if he needed gas over Saturday he would not have to use money. I just always thought about how really stupid that was because of the safety concerns. As a child I was allowed to swim in the ocean on Saturday but not in a swimming pool. My mother told me it was because the ocean was God made so I was appriciating His awsome creation over Sabbath but the swimming pool was manmade and was just for my own amusement. Whatever, I was a kid. I just wanted to have fun whenever and however I could. I didn't much care about the particulars. In my family I had to wear a dress until sunset on Saturday. Ten I would get to spend a week each summer with my favorite aunt who lived very isolated in a rural area. She was my favorite aunt. She told me to get my shorts and tanktops on and then she phoned and asked if the neighbor kids would come play with me so I wouldn't be board over Sabbath afternoon. And me and the kids from the area would take off on the bicycles each with our own bb gun and play bb tag. We'd sure get wild. Sometimes we'd go to the dump and shoot the rats with the bb's. I loved it. Never killed a rat but you should see those critters scurry away when they get popped. Those were my favorite Sabbaths growing up. And, that aunt was SDA, too.I have a friend whose parents won't even get their mail on Saturday. There is just no rhyme or reason to it. Next weekend is the VOP high roller weekend up in Northeran Ca. The VOP rents a beautiful hotel and they hold the meetings right there at the facility. They have catered vegetarian meals. So, they are at the lodging over their Sabbath and that is a SDA wingding. Don't make no logical sense to me. | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2004 |
Reading this thread has made me so thankful to be free of the legalism I used to live with. I have known people who would drive miles and miles out of their way to avoid paying toll on Sabbath. Trying to figure out what was acceptable when you were with other people was frustrating. Windsurfing was wrong, but sailing in a boat was okay. I used to feel guilt if I let my kids ride their bikes on a nice day. I also used to wonder as I paid toll on a highway, if God was displeased with me. Thank God that I now know that God loves me regardless and wants me to rest in him continuously. As our heavenly Father his love is sure, and will be there no matter what! | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 219 Registered: 5-2004 |
I was confused about the following oddities I heard about when i was first exposed to SDAism. On the Sabbath: Wading is ok, swimming is not. Frisbee is ok, football is not. programming the VCR to later watch a Saturday sporting event is ok, but watching it on saturday is not. Getting gas is questionable.... my initial reaction was... HUH??? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 209 Registered: 7-2004  |
Perhaps getting gas should be OK it it is self serve and you can use a credit card at the pump... Or if that isn't OK, then a Sabbath days journey = 1 tank of gas. The inconsistencies are mind boggling. But I always found it more amusing than disturbing. |
