| Author | Message | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 209 Registered: 9-2004 |
I found an interesting website that offers information on religions including SDA. Aside from the tone of the website being sarcastic, what do you think of it? The questions to ask SDA seem to be a good way to get someone to look at their circular logic of reading the scriptures (if approached gently) Bible.ca is the website.. Please tell me what you think. I may use it to focus my studies (C and I decided to study together on Sat.)in terms of the "Questions to ask SDAs". Just reading them they seem to help point out the inconsistency of the thought process and inconsistent application of scriptures. (the other part of our study plan is to discuss and research definitions so that we (he) can begin with the same premise when we read the bible. Thanks for your input! Tracey | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 384 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, I've seen that web site. Though it may be a bit sarcastic, I like it!  Thanks for reminding me of that list they have of questions to ask SDAs. Jeremy | ||
| Velo1 Registered user Username: Velo1 Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2005 |
Tracey, you and I are in similar situations in that we both have someone that we care about in Adventism... I have been to the site you mentioned. While I found the questions helpful...I wouldn't recommend using it as the sole focus of your studies. In fact, I'd take that site with the proverbial grain of salt... there are some more scholarly sites out there. I can give you two resources (outside of this forum which I think is great) that I found helpful. One is Dale Ratzlaf of Live Assurance Ministries. <http://www.ratzlaf.com/lam_inc_.htm> I called him the first week after I started researching about Adventism. He was very helpful in giving me some perspective on the situation and he can give you some ideas on how to focus your discussion. I don't have my notes with me here, but the questions begins with something to the effect of "How does someone become saved?" A quick 10 minute conversation with him can give you some excellent starting points. He also referred me to Gregory Taylor whom I spoke with as well...also very helpful to me. The other I found helpful is the SDA outreach <http://www.sdaoutreach.org> site...make sure you type in ".org" not ".com" (the .org is for former Adventists...the .com is for current Adventists). This site focuses on some of the Adventist beliefs such as the (Sabbath, state of the dead, covenants, and others)and gives alternative biblical passages that are difficult to refute. This was a good starting point for me as well. Since you are studying together on Saturday, I'd give Dale Ratzlaff a call, he can give you some direction on this short time window. The best advice I personally can give is to pass on what Gregory Taylor told me...the best thing you can do is pray for the person. It is good that he is willing to study with you and not go into a protective shell. Good Luck, Iíll pray for you. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 213 Registered: 7-2004  |
I just browsed through the website you mentioned, Tracey, for the second time. The first time was back in the late 1990's, when I was still very much an SDA! It was very interesting for me to see that I currently agree with so much of it, and it shows how much really has changed in my viewpoints. The first time I went through it, I immediately wrote it off as totally wacko, because I found it very offensive. At the time, I was questioning things about SDAism, but I thought if that's the best someone can do to answer my questions then I wasn't interested. I viewed that website as my exposure to "the other side" and that exposure looked unchristian and offensive to me. Maybe you can find something useful there for you, but I wouldn't have C actually go through that website with you. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 676 Registered: 7-2003  |
Tracey, it's been awhile, but I've spent quite a bit of time on that site previously. For the most part I think most of the SDA stuff and Sabbatarian information is pretty good. However, and this is a BIG HOWEVER, do not, I repeat, do not use any materials on this site related to salvation when speaking with an Adventist. This site teaches that immersion baptsim is a necessary part of the formula to be saved (rather than an outward response to something that has already taken place in the spirit). According to this site, without baptism, especially the right kind you are lost and cannot be saved. Don't get me wrong, every Christian is called to be baptized in obedience to our Lord and as an outward demonstration of our new life in Christ. I just don't believe that any act saves us. Worse yet, this site teaches that while you can't earn your salvation, once given, you must maintain salvation by works. If your works are not adequately maintained or if you fall into sin, you are lost. This is heresy as far as I'm concerned, but even if you don't share my aversion to such teaching, I can assure you that such teaching will only serve to strengthen and Adventist's view that they must maintain their salvation through commandment keeping and especially through Sabbath keeping. This is dangerous stuff to expose an SDA to. Chris | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 214 Registered: 7-2004 |
I agree, Chris! It really bothers me to see any Christian group promoting the necessity of maintaining your salvation by works. I didn't catch that in the website, and when I said in my post above that I agreed with it, I was referring to the parts about EGW, Sabbath and 10 Commandments. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 210 Registered: 9-2004 |
Thanks for the input.. I would never take C to the site.. I was mainly interested in pursuing the "questions to ask" through our own study (even though I know the answers) I didn't see anything about maintaining salvation though Chris. I am with Raven about the parts that I do agree with also. Thanks! Tracey | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 677 Registered: 7-2003 |
Here are a few choice quotes from the website under discussion: "He [a person] is not saved by faith alone, but through obedience to the commandments of Christ." "There are many Bible passages that show the essentiality of faith, that we are saved by faith, justified by it, and so on. Every one of these passages is to be believed and accepted. But there is one similar thing about all these passages on faith, not one single passage ever says we are saved by faith only. There are not such passages in the Bible." "It is true that no man can save himself by his own works, but he must work according to God's plan in order to be saved." There are many other such quotes sprinkled through the site, but when taken together, one certainly gets the impression that this site is teaching faith + works = salvation. Chris | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1619 Registered: 11-2002 |
Chris, Recently I had a SDA tell me the #1 topic of disagreement within Christianity throughout the ages has been the issue of Sabbath or Sunday worship. I told this SDA I totally disagreed as throughout the ages Sunday has been the day of cooperate worship for Christians, that there never has been much dissent on the main day of worship but in my opinion the main issue of disagreement with Christians has been at what age and in what manner to baptise. After thinking over what I said the SDA person said, "Yeah, you're probably right. Satan pretty much has convinced most Christians to worship on Sunday. Good thing the Anabaptists came along to at least make the truth about baptism known." | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 385 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, if I remember correctly, that is the same web site which teaches that you have to go to church every week (it might even say on Sunday!) in order to be/stay saved. Jeremy | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2005 |
Susan, You're right that baptism has been quiet an issue for millenia. I remebmer reading that sprinkling vs. immersion and at what age were hot topics of debate. Over the past 200 years, though, I think that baptism has become a part of a much larger dabate, that of the Conservatives vs. the Liberals. Actually, it probably started with Martin Luther and the Reformation, but the past 200 years especially have seen this happen again and again: denominations split over some issue, typically involving conservative theology vs. liberal theology. The current gay debate is just the latest permutation. Adventists seem to have typically "pulled ranks" to keep out the "liberal poison", and so have not suffered any great dividing, at least none that I'm aware of. It will be interesting (from strictly an objective point of view) to see if this holds out for GC in the future. Anyways, I daresay that Adventists view legalism as being conservative, and that this NC theology is liberal. Kind of ironic for a church that's not even 200 years old! Tom | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 150 Registered: 5-2004  |
I've also been to that website and have pulled some very valuable stuff from it for studying, although, as you all have said there are definately things to watch out for. Another excellent site is http://www.wcg.org/ which is the Worldwide Church of God site. If you click on their Literature tab, they have so many articles and studies regarding the place of the law, and why Sabbath is not a necessity for Christians, and about the enormity of the Gospel and a correct understanding of it. They also have great studies about Jesus' teachings that provide insights that most Adventists won't have seen or thought of. Other than this forum, that site has been the most beneficial to me. Unfortunately, most Adventists won't go there as they see the WCG as have sold out to "Babylon" and going apostate. | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2004 |
My wife and I have been studying so many points of doctrine, trying to read Scripture for the first time without our EGW glasses on to gain a better understanding of Christ. We have not really studied baptism at all. Could any of you recommend any resources on that subject? I'd be interested to read more about it. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 679 Registered: 7-2003 |
I agree Esther. The white papers on the WCG site are excellent! The WCG is an example of a cult group (complete with prophet and sabbatarianism), that joined the body of Christ through much courage and biblical study. The papers on their site are the result of the soul searching and study they did. Chris | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 212 Registered: 9-2004 |
Okay, I'm getting confused.. Matthew 5:17 " until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law, until all be fulfilled. Question: What does until heaven and earth pass away mean? I mean, I understand the second part,but the first part almost seems to mean like this "Until heaven and earth pass away AND all is fulfilled, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law." What am I understanding incorrectly?? Is it really meaning that the law will last as long as heaven and earth UNLESS the law is fullfilled??? | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 154 Registered: 5-2004 |
This was the last verse I came to peace with too...hopefully some of this will help you, and I'm sure others will chime in too. Here's a quote from the Jamison, Faussett, and Brown Commentary: to destroy the law, or the prophets ó that is, ìthe authority and principles of the Old Testament.î (On the phrase, see Mat_7:12; Mat_22:40; Luk_16:16; Act_13:15). This general way of taking the phrase is much better than understanding ìthe lawî and ìthe prophetsî separately, and inquiring, as many good critics do, in what sense our Lord could be supposed to meditate the subversion of each. To the various classes of His hearers, who might view such supposed abrogation of the law and the prophets with very different feelings, our Lordís announcement would, in effect, be such as this - ìYe who tremble at the word of the Lord, fear not that I am going to sweep the foundation from under your feet: Ye restless and revolutionary spirits, hope not that I am going to head any revolutionary movement: And ye who hypocritically affect great reverence for the law and the prophets, pretend not to find anything in My teaching derogatory to Godís living oracles.î I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil ó Not to subvert, abrogate, or annul, but to establish the law and the prophets - to unfold them, to embody them in living form, and to enshrine them in the reverence, affection, and character of men, am I come. and from Matthew Henry's Commentary: I. The rule which Christ came to establish exactly agreed with the scriptures of the Old Testament, here called the law and the prophets. The prophets were commentators upon the law, and both together made up that rule of faith and practice which Christ found upon the throne in the Jewish church, and here he keeps it on the throne. 1. He protests against the thought of cancelling and weakening the Old Testament; Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets. (1.) ìLet not the pious Jews, who have an affection for the law and the prophets, fear that I come to destroy them.î Let them be not prejudiced against Christ and his doctrine, from a jealousy that this kingdom he came to set up, would derogate from the honour of the scriptures, which they had embraced as coming from God, and of which they had experienced the power and purity; no, let them be satisfied that Christ has no ill design upon the law and the prophets. ... No, he came to fulfil them. That is, [1.] To obey the commands of the law, for he was made under the law, Gal_4:4. He in all respects yielded obedience to the law, honoured his parents, sanctified the sabbath, prayed, gave alms, and did that which never any one else did, obeyed perfectly, and never broke the law in any thing. [2.] To make good the promises of the law, and the predictions of the prophets, which did all bear witness to him. The covenant of grace is, for substance, the same now that it was then, and Christ the Mediator of it. [3.] To answer the types of the law; thus (as bishop Tillotson expresses it), he did not make void, but make good, the ceremonial law, and manifested himself to be the Substance of all those shadows. [4.] To fill up the defects of it, and so to complete and perfect it. Thus the word plērōsai properly signifies. Also, if you cross reference with John 19:30, the greek definition for finished is: τελέω teleō; from G5056; to bring to an end, complete, fulfill: - accomplished (3), carried (1), carry (1), completed (3), finish (1), finished (11), fulfilled (2), fulfilling (1), keeps (1), pay (2), perfected (1), performed (1). Matthew Henry Commentary: (3.) It is finished, that is, all the types and prophecies of the Old Testament, which pointed at the sufferings of the Messiah, were accomplished and answered. He speaks as if, now that they had given him the vinegar, he could not bethink himself of any word in the Old Testament that was to be fulfilled between him and his death but it had its accomplishment; such as, his being sold for thirty pieces of silver, his hands and feet being pierced, his garments divided, etc.; and now that this is done. It is finished. (4.) It is finished, that is, the ceremonial law is abolished, and a period put to the obligation of it. The substance is now come, and all the shadows are done away. Just now the veil is rent, the wall of partition is taken down, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, Eph_2:14, Eph_2:15. The Mosaic economy is dissolved, to make way for a better hope. (5.) It is finished, that is, sin is finished, and an end made of transgression, by the bringing in of an everlasting righteousness. It seems to refer to Dan_9:24. The Lamb of God was sacrificed to take away the sin of the world, and it is done, Heb_9:26. JFB: Joh 19:30 - It is finished! and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost ó What is finished? The Law is fulfilled as never before, nor since, in His ìobedience unto death, even the death of the crossî; Messianic prophecy is accomplished; Redemption is completed; ìHe hath finished the transgression, and made reconciliation for iniquity, and brought in everlasting righteousness, and sealed up the vision and prophecy, and anointed a Holy of Holiesî; He has inaugurated the kingdom of God and given birth to a new world. Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. (NASB) | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2004 |
Tracey, Also read the article from this site: http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/curryapp.htm It's a WCG explanation of Matt 5:17. It addresses the whole question about why this text is used to "prove" that the law still is in place. It should answer most of your questions, and if it's "C" asking them or pointing you to this verse, then it will give you a good understanding of how to explain it. It was pivitol to me to realize that Jesus was talking about the whole law and prophets, not the 10. If He hadn't fulfilled the law that applied to Him, He wasn't the messiah. He did fulfil it though, hence, we don't need the shadows anymore! Praise God! | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 213 Registered: 9-2004 |
Esther! Thank you!! That's exactly why I needed clarification.. Tomorrow's study is on this verse.. (We're gonna try not to yell!) Real Christian like, we are ! : ) kidding. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 388 Registered: 10-2004 |
Tracey, check out this link from the Bible.ca web site: http://www.bible.ca/7-Mt-5-17.htm Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1513 Registered: 12-2003  |
Tracey, another point about the law lasting until heaven and earth disappear is that IT IS STILL HERE--and we need it as Christ followers as the PROOF that JEsus is who He claimed to be. He fulfilled every tiny nuance of the entire law, prophets, and the Psalms. Not one slight law (not just the 10) is beyond His fulfillment. When Jesus says that no one is to teach others to break the law because not one jot or tittle will be done away with, He is saying this in effect: "If any of you teach that some small points of law are not significant, then you are saying I have no Lordship over that point. I have come to fulfill, not destroy. In me is the perfect fulfillment of even the tiniest command of the law. My life and obedience are filling full with meaning ALL the Torah and the prophecies. If you suggest there are some laws that can be eliminated, you are eliminating as well my personal fulfillment of those points." Jesus IS the embodiment of the law and the prophets. The law and the prophets are here today as the PROOF that Jesus is the Messiah. Without them, anyone could have come and claimed to be the promised One, but we would have no way to discern which one was telling the truth. With the law and prophets available, we can KNOW that Jesus is the One we were expecting. He is the only one who fulfilled every nuance of the law. The law and the prophets will stand until we have a new heaven and a new earth. As long as there is time and sinful humanity, we will need the law and the prophets as part of our apologetics for Christianity. Remember how Stephen and Peter and Paul taught the gospel using the law and the prophets as the evidence for the truth about Jesus? There is a really great article by Haroldo Camacho in the next PRoclamation regarding Matthew 7 and how Jesus was announcing His ministry as the law's fulfillment when He gave the Sermon on the Mount. Even the 10 Commandments are laws Jesus fulfilled. He kept them and expanded their breadth and meaning in His own life--and He now offers us His righteousness to cover our sinful inability to keep those very laws. He is Everything. Colleen |
