| Author | Message | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2005 |
This past week was the the annual Education Sabbath at our local church. To give emphasis to the occasion the Conference Education Secretary came up to give the "sermon" and really rubbed me the wrong way, I guess. The first 5 or 10 minutes was all about the "Adventist Edge". This "Edge" was presented in Power Point format where all of the areas were listed that separates SDA's and makes them better than all other religions, ie mission work, educational instutitions, medical institutions, the Spirit of Prophecy, health message, etc. Because the school choir was singing during the service there were a good number of non-SDA parents in attendance. It seemed to me that if I was one of those non-SDA parents I'd be thinking, "These guys really think a lot of themselves, don't they?" I don't believe a lot of SDA's even realize how they come off to other people and how alienating their message can be to those unfamiliar with the church or it's culture. The sad part is that a few months ago, before I began taking a good, hard look at the SDA church and it's doctrines, I probably wouldn't have noticed this at all but may have been nodding in agreement with the others. But what bothered me more than the introduction was the body of the remainder of the presentation. The crux of it was basically how important it was to take a 3-pronged approach to keeping your kids in the church: Church - Home - School and how if one of the pieces is missing the percentage of those kids leaving the church skyrockets. So then the message came across loud and clear: Send your kids to Adventist schools not to help them know Jesus better but to keep them locked into Adventism (thus future tithepayers, etc.). I know there are people on this forum who have been educators in SDA schools, have been on school boards, or have had children in the system. I'm curious as to your take on this issue. Do you think this is the pervading view of educational administrators in the SDA school system? Has this been your experience? I know several elementary and secondary teachers who really do seem to have a heart for God. I suppse it's possible that they don't see this philosophy explicitly stated by the conference so it may not even register. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1597 Registered: 11-2002 |
Heretic, what you wrote above is very interesting. It is also interesting to know that EGW says that children should not even have any formal education until age eight and even at that home schooling is prefered over even the SDA system. Yet, the local SDA schools not only have kindergartens in which they can start a child as young as four (In California the kindergarten child must turn five on or before Dec. 02.), the SDA's even have pre-schools in which the children can come as young as three. So, once again the SDA's have in their 27 fundamentals as well as their baptism vows that EGW is to be adheard to but then they disregard what they don't want to abide by. But, back to your comments. Yes, for the non-SDA parent to sit through those sorts of informercials is very weird. My d-i-l is not SDA. She had nener even heard of SDA or met a SDA until she got into our family. My grandchild is in first grade at the SDA school and I sometimes wonder if my d-i-l has noticed how cultic and exclusive the SDA's are. Think about it, if the children attend SDA day school, SDA church and have SDA family then those kids are very excluded from the greater society. I'm sure there are some on this very fourm that experienced this exclusiveness, the isolation. Fortunately my grandchild has a lot of exposure to non-SDA's and that is good. Then if as teenagers they are sent off to boarding schools they are then truly isolated in a SDA compound. I know people that are getting old, well into their 60's who grew up totally immersed in the SDA religion and society, went to SDA boarding high schools then through SDA university and then got a job for a SDA university and live near the SDA university all their adult lives. It is truly 100% of their exposure. Isn't that weird? Another comment about the Saturday service you sat through-I just made the comment several days ago to a lady I was on the phone with that the local SDA Saturday service is just a long informermercial. No gosple, no Bibical teaching at all. Just an hour and a half of promoting this, that or the other SDA programn that they want monety for. I just couldn't take it anymore. I used to sit through those SDA informwercials on Saturday mornings with my elderly mother but now I just drop her oiff, leave and come back for her when it's over. One week it will be about SDA education, one week about money to give to the minister program at Andrews, the next week they want money for LLU and the following week the entire service is about Adventist World Radio and they want money for that. Then another week it will be for FFT amnd then another week it will be for the VOP. No sermon ever on a Bible passage. It just doesn't seem like a Christian service at all. If they were to fail to tell the visitors they are Christian I'll tell you, the visitor sure wouldn't know it from what they hear in the service. | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 67 Registered: 12-2004 |
Heretic, I was an educator for 25 years. I have been in high schools, junior academies, and have served as a conference educational superintendant. I have interacted with parents, educators, and students. My take on all this is as follows: I can't imagine any principal or teacher saying that his or her school is inferior. Teachers are by nature eternal optimists and look at what could be rather than what is. Adventist traditionally have looked at what makes them different. For a long time, the difference was sports. Adventist didn't compete in sports leagues and therefore they had to be superior. Academically, they have looked at a variety of measurements and compare themselves to public institutions or learning. I was in one conference where grade after grade tested out at the 99th percentile. Parents were just filled with glee and pointed out the inferiority of the public system. Someone finally realized that it wasn't exceptional students but test accomidation. When you add to that the fact that parents have for years been shamed into putting their students in SDA schools because not doing it indicated their lack of commitment. I made sure that I never did that but I know it was done. I disagree with you that the main reason for schools is to continue to have more tithe-payers. There are very few tithe-payers left in the church. I believe that the reason for their existence is much more simplistic than that. It is for exactly what it has been set up, to indoctrinate and, yes, brainwash, students. The fact that many of the people on this forum are products of the adventist education system and have a difficult time shaking what has been drilled into them for years. When you add to this the fact that many churches, I believe, have turned the education of the kids over to school teachers so that they don't have to have involvement in their lives. If there is a church school and the parents don't want to send them, or if they don't want to send them to a boarding school, the church can somehow shake the dust off their feet. Now I realize this isn't the case with some congregations and churches, but my experience just seems to point out that their may be some truth in this observaiton. I had another conference superintendant who used to call students not from SDA homes as "future SDA's" when giving reports to parents and constituents. Oddly, it kinda point to what many think is the role of Adventist Education, another form of evangelism. I don't want to go on, right now. I will let others respond. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1108 Registered: 3-2004  |
I am a product of SDA schools. My first year of college I went to a public junior college. I was taking a psychology class. Incidentally, we did not have psychology classes in the SDA academy I attended. Being told we were the smartest and brightest really made me arrogant, inwardly. So when I received a "C" in psychology and another student who was a public school graduate earned an "A", I was hurt and disappointed. After all I came from a superior system. That really brought me down a couple of pegs. Through it all I never questioned the system in which I was educated. I wanted to send my son to an SDA school. He started out in one and then I HAD to take him out because his teacher was not treating him right because she and I had words. He did not need that type of treatment. When I took him out, my SDA friends reminded me that Sister White said, ad nauseum.... Two years later these same people were taking their kids out of the school and putting them in public school. They told me they should have done it when I took my son out. SDA schools are there to teach/brainwash the children and perpetuate the SDA doctrines. Incidentally, my son is part way out of the church. He is military, an SDA no-no, and he works on Saturday. He does not believe a lot of what the SDA church teaches and does not read EGW and does not want to. He just has not had his name taken off the church books. With the military he put down his denomination as SDA for his dog tag. I am sure one day he will change it. I thank God for that teacher that prompted me to take my son out of the SDA school. I just had a "whoa" moment. God let that happen so I would take my son out. WOW!!! He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1600 Registered: 11-2002 |
About the high test scores in the SDA schools-the local SDA school will not even let a kid be enrolled who doesn't maintain at least a C grade in every class. A local non-denominational Christian school will not allow a child to be in its school unless the child can maintain at least a B in each class and it is known in my area to be the hardest school in the area as far as academics are concerned. Having many public school teachers as kin and as friends I look at it as a public school teacher does, which is this-it just isn't fair to compare the private schools to the public schools. Public schools have to take any and every kid who comes into their neighborhood and enrolls. It does not matter if the child ever went to school in his native country before. It does not matter if the child knows no English at all. The range of academic ability can be from one extreme to the other. It does not matter if the child comes to school with a healthy attitude towards learning and actually has parents who will help him with his work, show up at parent/teacher meetings, go to open house and on and on and on or if the kid comes to school with the attitude that he hates school and rfuses to put forth any effort and has parents who don't care two bits about their childs schooling. The public schools have to take them all. Private schools do not and they don't. I have a very close friend who is Mayan. He grew up in Yukatan until age 12 when he got moved to Ca. He had never been to school in his life before coming to Ca. In Ca. this happens alot. It just is not fair to compare test scores from private schools to public schools. And, truly I believe the SDA's spend too much time on indroctanating the children in their schools. I only say this because just last summer I asked my little six year old grandchild one day to tell me about school that day. She then went on to tell me the biography of EGW. The child was in kindergarten. She is in first grade now. She told me how Ellen just wanted to live for Jesus but then a mean boy threw a rock and it hit her in the head. She was very sick for a long time. In fact, she never got real healthy and strong again. But, Jesus knew how much she loved Him and that she just wanted to spend her life helping other people to know how to love Him so when she grew up Jesus gave her special dreams that she then wrote into books so people could forever read her books and learn how to show their love for Jesus. We were in the car when my grandbaby was telling me this. Me and the child were in the backseat. I thought I was going to puke and I started making gagging noises. I finily got a grip on myself because I didn't want to make my grandbaby cry, she is very sweet and very sensitive and I love her so much. But, I was truly appalled. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 212 Registered: 7-2004  |
All my life, I have heard how top-notch SDA schools are academically and I never questioned it during my 14 years in the system. Our kids went to SDA schools through our oldest daughter's fourth grade year. We noticed that our oldest (who is unusually studious) was absolutely bored with her math class and seemed capable of doing so much more. I was shocked to see that they were doing less in Math class than I had done in that grade. After getting unsatisfactory answers from administration, we looked at the local (top-notch district) public school curriculum and saw that the SDA curriculum was between one and two years behind in both math and science. Our local public school is constantly touting how solid they are academically and that is their absolute top focus. They strive very hard to go above and beyond what is mandated by education laws. I took their curriculum into the SDA school and asked why they couldn't do that, and was told they follow the General Conference curriculum (which by the way was recently revamped and is not as far off as it was, but is still substandard in my opinion). We were also told that the SDA schools don't believe in working the children's brains too hard until about junior high, because they're not developed enough until then. We were assured by the end of eighth grade our kids would be up to par on everything. We decided our kids deserved to have a superb education immediately since they had the brains for it and wanted to learn, and so we made plans to put them in public school the following school year. Once that became common knowledge, we kept getting told that "the worst SDA school is far better than the best public school." There was also a lot of expressed concern that it would be highly unlikely for our kids to remain SDA if they went to public school. The funny thing is, the summer before public school is when I had my eyes opened and knew we were leaving the SDA church--all before there was any public school influence! It's just become very clear to me that the SDA schools are so focused on indotrinating and keeping everything "SDA" that the academics are maintained at whatever minimal levels the conference dictates. As a private school system, they're not subject to the "No Child Left Behind" mandates, and I think that also contributes to them slacking off academically, where as the public schools are being forced to continually improve (not that they're all successful--I know there are many extremely substandard public schools out there). | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1494 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree. The main reason for Adventist schools is to make Adventists. I can think of no other reason for people to send their 14-yr-olds to boarding academy. No matter how you rationalize, boarding academy is NOT home. Of course, some kids are probably better of in academy than in their severely dysfunctional homes--I've know some for whom boarding school was a way out of situations that were slowly destroying them. But that's another phenomenon that seems to occur 'way too frequently within Adventism. As far as academics are concerned--our boys have had to do research and write papers at their Christian school that were way beyond anything I ever did in academy--and, frankly, beyond even the requirements of my general ed classes at Walla Walla. The real reason for Adventist schools is what Heretic said above: to indoctrinate and make Adventists. How else are you going to ensure that your offspring will marry other Adventists and produce little Adventists? I've taught both at SDA schools (including boarding academy) and Christian schools. The Adventist schools not only were not superior, they were full of "club members" who didn't really accept others who were not Adventists. Never mind Christianity; what mattered was: are you SDA? Our boys' experiences in SDA schools before we transferred them mirrored my own observations which I experienced both as a student and as a teacher. I know that I promised myself I would never send a child of mine to a boarding academy by the time I had taught at one for five years. Kids need their parents (unless they're abusive), and when teens go off to academy, they basically have to face all of life's most difficult transitions with input mostly from other dorm-bound, "parentless" adolescents. It's just not healthy. Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 499 Registered: 1-2003 |
Praise God! One of the things my husband and I agreed on was no boarding academy for our kids. Why? I maintained that you turn over the raising of your kids to strangers just when they need you most. Most end up attaching to peers, which is normal but way more important in that setting, and thus are greatly influenced by them. Why would you send your child away when you only have just a few short years left to help make them responsible, Christian adults and parents? My in-laws sent their precosious daughter at 13 to boarding academy because there wasn't an SDA school in their town...is that crazy or what? Of course she immediately got an 18-year-old boyfriend, went a little wild and her mom and dad moved down to where the academy was but guess what...they didn't make her move home, they let her stay in the dorm...the only reason I can guess is there must be a lot more freedom there in the dorm for her to want to stay there. Crazy in my opinion. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 761 Registered: 7-2003  |
B was sent to boarding academy and as was said earlier, he claims it was a better environment than what he had at home with his SDA pastor dad. That was a surprising admission.... But he has been adamant about the importance of an SDA education and the evils of public education...but he's been quite shocked, several times he has mentioned, at the quality of my sons public education. During a choir concert one time, they were singing a spiritual song and he said "that's not usually allowed in public schools"...when he was in 2nd or 3rd grade, he commented Christopher could read better than some he knew much older than him. As he looked at the science text books, there was not a single mention of evolution ... and that surprised him too. But everything mentioned above is stuff he has repeated to me over and over...the importance of an organized "denomination" is the ability to have education systems, hospitals, etc.... The SDA education system is a huge fence around their own to keep them from the outside world that might challenge their worldview in my opinion. (and I know I have a somewhat limited perspective) I'm always surprised to hear non-SDA parents would send their kids to such a school. As was also mentioned above, the private schools can be very selective on who they have in their schools. The criteria is pretty strict at the schools I've checked out. On Christopher's 5th grade standard tests (public schools), his class all scored in the 90+% range. I know Bs SDA family has no clue how they sound to an outsider. But I learned a lot on how they view the world at a family event...every person is identified as SDA or non-SDA and that sets the whole tone to the conversation about the person. I learned very quickly that as long as I was not an SDA, I would be tolerated, but the wall is almost visible. It's quite a chilling sociological phenomenon.... | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 307 Registered: 10-2001 |
Absolutely, the reason for SDA schools and hospitals is to keep SDA's - SDA. I was encouraged to be a nurse so I could work in "one of our hospitals". It's completely about being in an elaborate compound that sheilds you from the outside world. I can't believe how incredibly weird it all is looking back. Praise God for delivering me from that mindset and brainwashing and making me His. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1115 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I graduated from LLU, I wanted to work in an SDA hospital and could not find a job in one. As years went by I applied for jobs in SDA hospitals and never got the job. God was protecting me way back when and I did not realize it until recently. Thank you God, You are AWESOME!! Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1497 Registered: 12-2003 |
Isn't it amazing, Diana, how we can see God's sovereign hand in retrospect? He really knows us from eternity, and He knows what each of us needs! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1603 Registered: 11-2002 |
I asked my mom once how the boaarding high schools came about and what was the history behind them. I was told that because the SDA's have so many missionary families in far away lands where the education is poor and the accomadations are poor that it wass figured that the missionary families could pretty much home school their children through 8th grade but if the kids were to be prepared for college they really deserved a top notch high school education and so to accomadate the missionary children the boarding schools came into being. Then more and more SDA's saw how wonderful they were and wanted to send their children to the boarding schools so that's the story as I got it. I only went to boarding school one year, the rest of high school was at the local public school. My very first night at MBA I was invited to an ouiji board party. I refused and thankfully I was out of the in crowd from that night on. It's really funny because in all my public school time never did a kid from public school ever make reference in any way about an ouiji board. I mentioned this many years ago to some SDA's and I got the standard SDA line about satan having to put so much more temtation in front of Adventist kids than other kids because satan knows the worlds kids already belong to him so he doesn't need to bother tempting them. It was really stupid. I think it was because the community that I lived in was very strongly Christian. Most every kid in my piblic school attended one of the several local churches each week and the public kids I was exposted to had a firm Christian upbringing. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 148 Registered: 5-2004  |
Jumping in at the tail here as we had a snow day yesterday  3.5 feet in our area and it is so beautiful! Anyway, as a PK I ran the whole gamit of SDA schooling and have sat in the school meetings and listened to the conference leaders discussions of educations. My opinion is that SDA schooling is primarily for making another generation of Adventists. And it has to be that way. As a "distictive religion", indoctrinating the young is the only way to keep them "distinctive". Not just any old Christian school would do. Also, I can't begin to count the number of times I'd heard Adventist's claim they go to an SDA college or university to: find an SDA spouse. | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2005 |
I really agree that SDA education is about indoctrination; although they might describe it as ìputting on the armor of Godî. The idea isnít unique; itís common to most truly fundamentalist movements. The idea is to inoculate the youth against the disease of worldliness so that when the finally face the outside world, theyíll be immune to its evil influences. Where SDAs and typical fundamentalists diverge, in my opinion, is post-education. Many fundamentalists will take on the world, while SDAs have the option to stay sheltered. You can be born into, raised by, educated within, employed by, and buried by the SDA conglomerate, all the while remaining in a state of non-questioning, mindless mediocrity. You put on the armor of God, but when do you actually have cause to use it? Also, in my opinion, what you profess is infinitely more important than how you actually behave. Susan_2, you mentioned a Ouiji board. At one of the SDA schools I went to, some of the guys were actually running a prostitution ring! They never got caught, either. One of my old friends mentioned how lousy the education was. I have to agree, at least as to content. Computer, science, foreign language, history, sex-ed, and practical skill classes were all non-existent or weak, at best. I will say that the SDA schools I went to encouraged me to use my brain. I was expected to use it, but only so far. I couldnít apply any reasoning to ìelemental truthsî. To me thatís the crux of the matter: learn up to a certain point, and then, either accept what is a ìgivenî and lead a mindless life henceforth, or continue to think, and think your way right out of the church! It would be different if SDAs drew a distinction between spiritual matters, which require a leap of faith, and secular matters, which can be proven logically. I accept that life requires both faith and logic, but the two must be applied only in their respective realms. To be fair, many fundamentalists also mix faith and logic wantonly; but at least the look only to the Bible. SDAs throw EGW into the mix to really gum up the works! Even within the realm of faith, it is reasonable to expect that our core tenants of faith aught to be in harmony with each other. The main problem I found in SDA doctrine: the core tenants of faith are out of sync with each other, especially when you add in EGW! So SDA educators are left in a quandary. Educate, but not too extensively. Reinforce what is acceptable, but hide the can of worms! Even within SDA education itself, there is an ìarmy within an armyî. Weimar, Heartland, and Pine Springs(?) are examples of a withdrawing of the SDA believers from the rest of the SDA believers, to a certain extent. They may couch their intent in a blathering of feel-good phrases, but they are a withdrawing nonetheless. Most SDA schools at least pursue accreditation. Schools such as Weimar refuse to for a variety of ìloftyî reasons. Iíll give them this much credit: at least theyíre not pretending that the SDA educational system is about actually getting an education. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 666 Registered: 7-2003  |
Weimarred said: "It would be different if SDAs drew a distinction between spiritual matters, which require a leap of faith, and secular matters, which can be proven logically. I accept that life requires both faith and logic, but the two must be applied only in their respective realms." The Christian walk is more than an existential experience. Faith is central to Christianity, but it is not faith against all evidence, but faith based on evidence. In the Bible, God presents propositional, objective, truth. There is no need to put this truth into the "upper story" of existentialism and divorce it from fact (or what we might call reality). Nor does the Bible encourage us to do so. The Bible always presents istself as describing factual, historical, events that occur in a real space-time continuum. Jesus and his apostles frequently refer to the content of the Bible with the assumption that it is true, trust worthy and historical. It is impossible to divorce truth from fact and retain any real meaning. It is equally impossible to divorce the truths taught in scripture from their historical factual space-time continuum. To do so is to make the Bible just another holy-book limited to inspirational value only. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1503 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well said, Chris. Although I have great philosophical (and spiritual) disagreements with Weimar, I will say that I believe they are currently pursuing WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) accreditation. I think they just had 'way too many students who transferred to other colleges and universities and couldn't transfer their credits. Colleen | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2005 |
Chris, Earlier I had said, "It would be different if SDAs drew a distinction between spiritual matters, which require a leap of faith, and secular matters, which can be proven logically. I accept that life requires both faith and logic, but the two must be applied only in their respective realms." In part, you replied, ìThe Christian walk is more than an existential experience. Faith is central to Christianity, but it is not faith against all evidence, but faith based on evidence.î I agree with this point that you made, and I realize that my statement was vague. I think that itís important draw a distinction in the evidence that we have for our faith: logical evidence, and personal experience. Both exist on the plane of reality, not on an existential plane. Where I erred was in calling the personal experience a ìleap of faithî. We have a variety of logical and testimonial evidence to support the truth of the Bible. I can take this evidence, present it in my court of logic, come to the conclusion that the Bible is true, and hence, I can make its themes the core of my belief system. But for me, when I stopped there, I encountered two problems. First, it left me with a very arid and barren religion, and second, this same logical method can come up with seemingly or even directly contrary results. This same method was used to describe the theory of evolution, to support the Holocaust, to support other religions, to build the atomic bomb, etc. It was only when I had a personal walk with God that I came to a true faith and understanding of my beliefs. This wasnít words in some book or hearing others sharing their faith; this was the wind on my face (alluding to Jesus and Nicodemus). I am a mortal with immortality, I sin though already pardoned, I am a guilty person with everlasting peace. What logic can explain this? As an Adventist, I distinctly remember our constant need to validate our faith with logic. I got so caught up in this, that I lost sight of the personal walk. My education only reinforced this theme. In the end, I felt like the sepulcher, beautiful marble on the outside, but dust and bones on the inside. It has taken me over 10 years since leaving Adventism to feel this power in my life personally. So, if I could re-wind and re-write (and un-White), I MIGHT have said, ìIt would be different if SDAs drew a strong distinction between a personal walk with God and a logical belief system. I accept that both are necessary for life, but the two must be applied together, not one without the other.î | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 673 Registered: 7-2003 |
Weimarred, your last statement is one we can both agree with. Thank you for the clarification. Chris | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 352 Registered: 7-2004 |
Love it...! "I AM A MORTAL WITH IMMORTALITY, I SIN THOUGH ALREADY PARDONED, I AM A GUILTY PERSON WITH EVERLASTING PEACE..." Thanks, Weimarred! |
