| Author | Message | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
Call me simplistsic but I take the Bible at it's word. Especially when the source quoted is Jesus, himself. What does He say? One of the most convicing (among many) statements on the subject is in John 5 where He states "I tell you the truth, who ever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be condemned. He HAS crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24 NIV) other versions including the NASB which has been declared to be the most accurate word for word translation, state basically the same, ìTruly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS passed out of death into life." (The New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update, (La Habra, California: The Lockman Foundation) 1996.) To me, the evidence is too clear to ignore. In His Service <>< Thomas | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I agree, Thomas. Look at the Greek (www.blueletterbible.org has it.) The tense is strictly present (present tense) The reward is stated as immediate. Jerry | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree. And Doug, what you have learned in Romans IS inconsistent with soul sleep. I have come to believe that the great underlying heresy of Adventist doctrine is not the Sabbath but soul sleep. The Adventist view of the Sabbath is a result, actually, of their misunderstanding of the nature of man. Adventists say that humans do not have an eternal spirit. They say that the spirit equals the breath. When God breathed the breath of life into Adam, he breathed literal lifeóeternal lifeóinto him. It's interesting that God brought Adam to life diferently from the way he brought animals to life. God SPOKE the animals into life. Adam, however, he BREATHED into life. The breath of life from God is not simply air, as we were taught. Animals have that. I believe that when God breathed into Adam's nostrils, the life he gave him was eternal, spiritual life which also activated his body. That's what really sets us apart from the animals: God's breath of life into us. Humans have a spirit which is what is reborn when, as sinners, we accept Jesus and experience death to our sinful nature. Ephesians 2 is clear that we were born spiritually dead. That spirit is what God gave Adam when he brought him to life; that spirit is what made Adam able to be intimate with God. That spirit is what died when Adam sinned. With his spirit dead, Adam was disconnected from God. He had to look out for himself, and he became the center of his own attention instead of God being the center. When we are born, we are born in that sinful, disconnected condition. When we are born again, that is a literal spiritual regeneration. "Born again" is not a metaphor for an intellectual and emotional assent to the knowledge of Jesus and the historical acceptance of him. It really is, literally, becoming a new creature born of God instead of born of flesh. Our spirits come alive. This presence of a spirit is what explains how Jesus could be human but sinless. He did have Mary's genes. He is human as well as God. But Jesus was the "firstborn" of creation; he was the first human to be born (Adam and Eve were created) with a living spirit. He was completely connected to God, and because of that, he was able to be our perfect sacrifice. Without a belief in humans having a spirit, the issue of sin is entirely behavior and genetic and neurological. If humans are merely bodies plus breath, sin is not really a spiritual problem. It is physical. Similarly, if humans are merely bodies plus breath, conversion is also physical and mental, not spiritual. The new birth is a metaphor, not a reality. There's a reason Adventists don't talk much about being born again. There's a reason they don't really have personal testimonies of how they came to know Jesus. Sin is confusing and frustrating because is is essentially, to them, behavioral and mental. Believing humans have spirits that either live eternally connected to Christ or live eternally disconnected from him totally affects the way we understand the nature of Christ and the nature of man. In essence, I don't see how Romans and soul sleep can co-exist. Jesus said, as Thomas pointed out, that when we believe in Jesus we pass from death to life. That certainly says to me that my spirit doesn't go into oblivion even temporarily. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Colleen said: "Without a belief in humans having a spirit, the issue of sin is entirely behavior and genetic and neurological. If humans are merely bodies plus breath, sin is not really a spiritual problem. It is physical. Similarly, if humans are merely bodies plus breath, conversion is also physical and mental, not spiritual. The new birth is a metaphor, not a reality. There's a reason Adventists don't talk much about being born again. There's a reason they don't really have personal testimonies of how they came to know Jesus. Sin is confusing and frustrating because is is essentially, to them, behavioral and mental." Colleen, you are so right! Is it possible that what you just stated above is why Historical Adventists place so much emphasis on the health message? Contemporary Adventists don't adhere to the health message as much, but that is more because of apathy rather than a realization that the message is somehow incomplete. I know that I NEVER heard testimonies in Adventism like the ones I hear in the church I currently go to. Testimonies always centered around either "when I came to the truth," or how "God kept me from slidding on the ice." I still have difficulty accepting the idea of eternal torment, but this revelation definitely solidifies my belief in the possibility of the existence of an eternal spirit inside of man. Doug | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I have some issues with eternal hell too. I can't imagine watching even the worst evil person burning forever. I don't know for sure we understand any of this in our earthly minds. (?) I'm not disputing that the Bible actually says it's forever, I just don't know exactly how someone can have an eternal state-horrible as it may be-without being saved. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
The issue of hell took me a long time to reconcile. Two ideas and one fact helped it to begin to make sense to me. The fact is that almost all of the Bible's teachings about hell came from the mouth of Jesus himself. He is the one who spoke the most about people going to eternal punishment, etc. (see Matthew 25:46; 5:22; 18:8; Mark 9:43,48) The ideas that helped me were these: it makes sense that the consequence for rejecting the gift of eternal life, for rejecting Jesus who suffered the penalty and agony of the whole world, would be of equal seriousness as is the benefit of accepting Jesus. If the result of accepting is eternal life, it makes sense that deliberate refusal to accept it would result in an eternal consequence. Annihilation is not the opposite of eternal life. A person who is annihilated is not suffering a consequence as serious as the offense. A short burn followed by nothingness is not a terribly serious result for rejcting the Lord of the Universe, his love, his sacrifice, and his sovereignty. In fact, I used to think (when I was hopeless and nuerotic about my failure to become perfect), "Well, at least I'll just burn a short time. It'll be awful, but it'll soon be over." The second idea that helped me come to terms with the reality of hell is that while I believe there is probably some physical reality to hell, it probably does not exist in our three dimensions. Hell may be an eternal spiritual reality that exists in a dimension of which we know nothing right now. The description of fire may be literal; it may also be figurative language to describe a reality we can't completely understand in our existence. Somehow, the idea that people really will suffer eternally for not accepting Jesus makes the whole issue of salvation much more serious in my mind. If they become just as though they never existed, the consequence is not ALL that serious. Eternal death does not necessarily mean unconsiousness, as we have always been taught. If Adam and Eve died when they sinned, their death was something more serious and significant than mere physical death. They were clearly still physically alive, yet God said they would die, and the Bible is clear that we are born dead because of their sin. They were still physically alive while they were spiritually dead. Perhaps, then, eternal death might also be consciousóbut consious of being eternally alone, separated from the Source of life, separated from relationships, separated from meaning and identity. Perhaps DEATH is about the spirit more than about the body. And yes, Doug, I've had the same thought about the health message. The body is all they have! These are just my thoughts which may changeóbut right now, this is my understanding of this subject. Praise God for life! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Colleen, I think it is beyond our understandng. I think we'll be amazed at how little we do understand when we get there. You said perhaps death is about the spirit more than the body. I agree, I couldn't believe the awareness I had and have of the spiritual world when I became saved. I never 'got' that before at all! Suddenly I realized that spirituality is a real thing and there is really spiritual warfare going on and simple things like some shows I used to watch just seemed evil! I used to think they were funny! I started noticing a weird feeling about certain people and circumstances etc. I don't mean in a psychic way or anything like that. for instance, in the little church we first went to, one night I felt very uncompfortable and started praying to God to fill the place with angels and force out any evil spirits if there were any. Suddenly everyone sat down, a girl went out and threw up, people started going outside, it was WEIRD! The preacher just wrapped it all up and we went home. Nobody else I talked to had the weird feeling except the girl who threw up and my kids who kept asking to leave. I think our body has little to do with anything. | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
I have somewhat of a different slant on this whole area. It makes sense to me that believers would go on to an eternal reward. That matches up with the passages in the New Testament and also makes sense as Jesus holds the keys of Death and Hell. This also doesn't contradict the verse that talks about 'o death where is thy sting, o grave where is thy victory', because the dead believers have an existence in a reality we who are left cannot interact with. We who lose our loved ones truly do feel the sting of death, the sadness of losing our loved ones. When Christ returns, it seems that then the departed believers recieve a body like that of Christ that can interact with the unseen dimension as well as the physical world that we now see around us. Christ could walk through doors, and yet still cook and eat fish on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, is an example of this type of body. What I don't find evidence for is that the same is true for the unbelievers. It seems from Revelation that the eternally burning hell is not set up until after the great white throne judgement of all of the dead PLUS those who are alive and have rejected God. I can't reconcile a need for judging the dead IF they have already been judged by default and are already serving out their sentence. So, my understanding is that the unbelieving dead are unconcious and waiting for the final judgement/sentencing at which time they are brought to life to suffer eternally. Does this make sense to anybody else? Bill s. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Bill, I've thought about that, too. The fact that the Bible refers to Hades, etc., dos make me think that they might be somewhere in "holding" until the judgment. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, however, also makes me think that there may be something conscious awaiting judgment. It does seem to me that the final punishment will somehow be more intense and complete than the interim waiting period, just as our final glorification will be physically complete compared to being with the Lord after death. Nothing is really described clearly, however. I think in many ways we'll probably be surprised! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
"Now concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has goe out from The Most High that a person shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of The Most High. If it is one of those who has shown scorn and have not kept the way of The Most High, who have dispised his law and hated those who fear God- such spirits will not enter into habitations but shall oinnediatelly wander about in torments, always greiving and sad in seven ways." and then the remainingof the chapter lists the seven ways. This is from 2 Esdras 78-80, from The New Revisied Standard Version. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
That's an interesting description, Susan. There's so much we don't know for sure, but one thing IS for sure: the state of humanity in death is NOT what we were taught it was! Colleen | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Colleen, I just thought that I would add to that train of thought about the "soul sleep" theology. Why can't SDAs see what the Bible says about the soul of man returning to God: Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Kinda dispells the theory of doggie heaven too, doesn't it? Also, in the Pauline epistles, Paul spoke of being absent from the body and present with the Lord, and many other verses allude to the fact that after the resurrection, things changed concerning death and the grave because Jesus went to the place where ALL the spirits were (a waiting room of sorts) and took those "righteous dead" to paradise and left the "wicked dead" there. This is another joke of the SDAs who want to claim that the Bible got translated "incorrectly" and the comma misplaced. I would like to just say that when the original scriptures were penned that they, in fact, had no commas, periods, question marks, etc. Not even vowels, so, tell me how in the world that EGW could surmise that the Holy Bible was in error? Even if you took the comma and moved it, read it and see if it makes for a grammatically correct sentence structure. I really think that all of this false teaching of the SDAs really goes back to what several of you said in various posts about "demonic" influence. I really do feel that an evil influence has surrounded each and every one of the SDA members who prefer to "disown" relatives and "fellow believers" for the sake of clinging to EGW. I don't get it. I asked my sister in my last letter "why can't you go to church on Sabbath if you want and instead of quoting EGW, leave her out of it and preach like Paul did" and it was like the saying goes, it was "like water on a duck's back." Nothing seems to kick in, so, that is what is worrying me so much because, according to scripture, a natural man can't preceive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned, (understood as given by the Holy Spirit) so, my question is this: is she merely "grieving the Holy Spirit" or did she ever receive it when she claimed to receive her salvation? After all, the Lord said that "you MUST be born again." I have heard so many of you talking about what a blessing the book of Galatians has meant to you and I say amen!!! I have tried to get my mother and sister both to read this and begged them to pray first and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth found in those six little chapters of scripture, it speaks volumes, doesn't it? I have always heard that no news was good news but when it comes to wanting to hear your family say thank you for your persistent prayers and tell you that they finally "got it", well, I must keep praying that God give me patience to remain faithful to prayer intercession on their behalf. I wanted to give everyone a terrific and informative booklet that you can read online. The booklet is called "What In The World Is Satan Doing" and I have been reading it all day. It has been a tremendous insight. For many of us who have come and gone in this forum due to getting discouraged and/or depressed over the things that have been happening, I would just like to say: Please read this booklet, it was just like God spoke right from its pages and said, "this is what is going on" and this is who is behind it all--Satan and his demonic influences, all the answers to everything that we have ever posted was in that little booklet. Please check it out at: http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1001/q1001.html Just select the http and copy and paste it in your address box and it should go straight to it. I found another booklet that they offered while I was visiting the site for the http and you might want to check it out too, it is: http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0906/q0906.html and is a booklet that I definitely need to read, all about the art of graciously disagreeing. Anyway, I was so excited when I started reading this book that I couldn't wait to get home and let you all know about it, what an eye opener!!! God bless and have a great day, Janice P.S.--I checked out that prophecy web site a little bit last night and found that much of what was said there was, for the most part, much of what I have been studying on for a while now. Our preacher even mentioned the verse in Genesis 6 about the sons of God taking daughters of men and begetting giants. These giants were wicked offspring that prompted God to destroy them with the global flood. I think this is probably something that many of the scientists may have been deceived into believing: that the bones found were that of a caveman that we supposedly "evolved" from. I think that much of what appears to be a big puzzle to the scientists is just another one of Satan's (father of all lies) tricks. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Janice,...as I was reading your post. I kept thinking of a phrase my minister uses, "Religion is the devils ace trump!" If you think about it, the Bible never associates religion and Christianity. They are distinctly differentiated. Those who accepted Christ left religion. Christ in them did not perfect religion rather it eliminated it. | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Lori, That is so true, isn't it? All anyone has to do is look in the four gospels about the life and teachings of Jesus and they will see that it was ALWAYS the "religious" crowd that kept trying to persecute Christ during his entire ministry and, in the end, were the very ones that had the death sentence pronounced on him. The Jews that persecuted him were called the Sanhedrin and the Sadduccess and Pharisses were the legalists of the day that constantly hounded him. Even the money changers in the temple were making profit from those who came into the temple to "practice" religious ceremony.(Isn't it strange how Nicodemus searched for truth from Jesus but did so in the cloak of darkness so that other "religious" people wouldn't catch him?) When you say that the Christians left "religion" is a profound statement, thanks for saying that! When a coworker of mine was asked what religion he was, he simply stated that he was a member of a Baptist church but preferred to be known as a "Christian". I believe that Christ eliminated religion when he hung on the cross and cried out "it is finished" and we have all of the New Testament writings to prove it. All who would read the book of Acts would find that truth written on every page, AMEN? I think that it is so sad to have numerous Bibles around one's home but feel the need to take another book down off the shelf to get the "proper interpretation" of it. Proper perception is gained ONLY by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because a natural (worldly-unsaved) man can't perceive the things of God, they are "spiritually" discerned!!! Why can't people read in the Bible that this is strictly forbidden by God himself in his word? Cursed is anyone who adds to or takes from the word! It isn't a direct quote but the Bible says that in the last days that knowledge will increase (look at us here for an example) and many would run to and fro (look at the traffic) and that mankind would be "ever-learning" but never coming to the "full" knowledge of God. He has given his truth to the "simple" while confounding the wise. Maybe I will do a study on the word "wise" because people that can't grasp the truth don't sound to smart to me, is that being scarcastic? Sorry if it sounds that way, I hate it when I am misunderstood, it is a thought though, isn't it? I am off from work today and need to get up and clean house a little since I didn't get to do that this weekend with all the wonderful church activity that I partook of. Again, I had a glorious weekend with fellow believers praising God for his goodness and mercy, but most of all, I thank God for allowing us to grasp what a true relationship with CHRIST is all about. Revelations says that in Christ dwells the fullness of the Godhead, praise his holy name. Janice | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Janice and Lori, as a former attending adventist, I have learned that there are certain things that are taught in organized religion, which ever denomination you choose, that are unproveable, such as the state of the dead. It may be important to us to dispute them because they interfere with our comfort level. Example, the state of the dead. Whether we believe mom when she dies is smiling down on us or she is sleeping to be raised from the ground, the next thought of the righteous is of Jesus' glory. However, if one is concerned about why a body needs to be raised at Christ's second coming (or rapture if you so believe) it does raise some logic questions which I have found are a little like arguing about the how many angels can dance on the head of a needle. It isn't just the Adventists that do this to others, I attend a PCA Presbyterian church and they use Calvin and the Westminister Confession like her writings. I have had more trouble with their view of Predestination than I have on the day they worship. It strikes right at the heart of one's view of God which is after all what is the most important part of organized religion to relay the most clear view of God and salvation. All the rest is open for discussion with a continuum of thought that hopefully can be discussed and disagreed with without being disagreeable. Bob_2 | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
I trust that my comments were not taken in such a way to cut off discussion on this thread. I have never been able to talk about my former church as evil personified or demon possessed. This can be a little like "sticks and stones". The view that immediately upon death the believer or unbeliever receives his reward takes away from the judgement and a logical reason for the the raising of bodies at the 2nd Advent to meet up with a Spirit that has already received its reward. Granted the immediate reward story tells better to emotionally distraught grieving family. It is unprovable at any rate until we see Jesus. Maybe then we should tell it as it best helps the grieving person. Bob_2 | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Bob, welcome to the forum! I just want to comment on your remarks about immediate rewards. Actually, being with the Lord is not our reward. That is our free gift! It has nothing to do with giving us something in return for anything we did. That's purely the result of Jesus' grace. I agree that we don't know exactly what happens when a person dies. Although I now believe that a person's spirit is with the Lord if he or she is a believer, I don't believe that means the physical person is there. I do believe that there is a mystery involved that we're not privy to, but the part of us that knows Jesus (as in spiritual things are spiritually discerned) is what returns to God and is never separated from him. I personally do not believe that the spirits of the dead can roam the universe or move about autonomously. They're with Jesus, and that's where they'll stay until the resurrection when their bodies are also redeemed. Both our souls and our bodies are saved. The resurrection makes us whole again and able to move about as complete beings. Rewards, as described in 1 Corinthians 3, are not the same thing as salvation. Paul talks about rewards being given in response to our work done by the power of the Spirit. If our works are of God, they will last; if they are not, they will be destroyed although the person himself (this is presupposing a saved person) will be saved as if through the flames. Rewards are not described in the Bible, but they are mentioned quite often. Jesus himself talked about people's rewards being great in heaven if they have been faithful to Him. Rewards are not salvation; they are something else--responsibility in the kingdom, perhaps?--that we receive after the resurrection when we physically enter the physical kingdom of Heaven. Again, welcome! Colleen | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
For whatever it's worth--I believe that we will be with Jesus the very moment our physical bodies die. The words of Paul, "to live is Christ to die is gain" do not reflect the tone of a man who is looking forward to lying dead (body, soul and spirit) in the grave for 1,000's of years! Sounds more like the eagerness of a man who knows 1/1000000000000th of a second after his body dies he will be in the presence of God--"no more sorrow, no more tears" all the old things have passed away!!! Regarding the rewards, I don't think those come until later. But that's just my opinion based upon the knowledge that I have right now....... | ||
| Bob_2 (Bob_2) |
Lori, why does the body of the righteous need to be resurrected then if we are already with Jesus? I can't get past that. Maybe too logical to a fault. LOL This going immediately before Jesus would suggest the judgement to have taken place. Read 2Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." Does everyone have their individual judgement at death? What about Revelation 22:14 where at Jesus 2nd coming he will say, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city." Sounds like they haven't gone throught the gates yet doesn't it. In His Grace, Bob_2 Bob_2 | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Bob, I think you are overlooking other verses. In John 12:31 we have Christ saying, "Now is the judgment of this world, now the ruler of this world will be cast out." The mystery of the "last day" is that it is already here, and yet is still coming. In Christ's ministry, satan was defeated and so Christ could say, "it is finished". The promised kingdom arrived. We just haven't yet seen the consummation of that event. Yet the "end times" began back there with Christ. Think of the difference between D-Day and V-Day. John 3:18 says "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." That is the point of judgment, belief or unbelief. The whole topic of what happens at death is confusing if we look at "death". It becomes very clear tho if we first approach it from the topic of what is the "spirit" of man. If man truly has a spirit that is seperate from his body, then: -he truly is the God of the living, not the dead: Matt. 22.31-32 -what Stephen prayed makes sense Acts 7.59-60 -we really do already possess eternal life, and not just the promise of it, John 3.36, I John 5.11-13 -the bread of life discourse tells the truth when it says we don't die John 6.41-58 -Christ was speaking very literally in John 5.24 -our spirit can be alive even if our body is dead Romans 8.10 -it really will be gain to die Phil. 1.21-24 -Christ told the truth when he said we would never see death John 8.51 -this how He can bring with Him those who have died I Thes. 4:14 -it explains how the believer can have already "come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God". Heb. 12.22-24 Our view of man's spirit definitely makes a difference. |
