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Goldenbear
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Post Number: 70
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Was at a bible study last night with several people who are processing out (It is amazing how they just keep coming out) and the question came up, Well, how do you relate to the end time? I inferred it to mean that as Seventh-day Adventists we are programmed to think one certain way. When EGW is no longer in the picture where do you go from that point?

I know how I feel, but what do the rest of you think?
Flyinglady
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goldenbear,
For a long time now I have not been concerned about the end time. That was before I decided not to rejoin the SDA church. The way I thought then and now is that because I maintain a relationship with Jesus and grow in that relationship daily, what ever the end time brings, Jesus will take me through it. I see now I gave up EGW long before I thought I did. Praise God, He is awesome.
Diana
Bob
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 7:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goldenbear, as SDAs, we were in the frenetic habit of thinking we had to have the answers to everything, including last day events.

It takes time to "process out" and to reexamine and re-learn the truths of Scripture. During that time, I think it is OK to temporarily put some matters such as eschatology "on the shelf" for later study after we have learned and experienced the basics of what it really means to live the Christian life.

Bob
Lindylou
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 8:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good thoughts - There have been times in my SDA life that the issue of end times was quite a dramatic force in my life. And currently, I have some relatives that are frantically trying to let everyone know that things are winding up fast! "We don't have much time - is your house in order?"

But I have to say - what a wonderful relief it is - now that I am no longer SDA - to have put end time issues on the back burner. I feel that my focus on Christ and His Grace - have taken away all fear - and worry about the "end of the world" -

Yes the world is a crazy mixed up place - and yes it could all come crashing down at any time - but I must keep my focus on Christ - and rest in His wonderful peace that no matter what happens, all will be well with my soul!

The one thing that used to bug the daylights out of me while deep in adventism - was the constant warning of a "time of trouble such as never was" - How on earth can there be a time of trouble worse than the flood! or the days of the gladiators, or the crusades or the U.S. civil war or all the World Wars??- ect. Each in their way was a terrible time of trouble for those who were in the middle of them.

The bottom line is that we all need God to give us hope in a crazy world - come what may. And the wonderful Good News is that He is with us - even unto the end of the world! "Be not afraid."
Susan_2
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Considering how old this earth as well as the universe is I figure my end of time will probably be at the time of my death. I have had to tell numerous SDA's this. I think to a SDA the term 'end of time' or 'end of this age' or whatever term they use is generally ment in referance to the coming of the King in the clouds of glory. However, weather we see Jesus in the way most SDA's do or if the end of time is at our own death it still remains the same-live the best we can with a right heart in forgiveness and we'll be fine. But, sadly SDA's have a really skewed concept of death so looking at their individual end of time that way gives them no peace.
Greg
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 6:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am by no means an expert in eschatology (study of end time events) but one major line of thinking regarding Revelation is that it prophesied events that have already taken place in the hundred years or so after the resurrection of Christ. This view of Revelation is called "preterist". If you think about it, one of the worst times in the earth's history to be a Christian was during that time, as Christianity represented an unparalleled threat to both Jewish and pagan belief alike.

Christians under the rule of Nero were martyred routinely--the original Roman Candle consisted of a live Christian, wrapped in pitch, and lit on fire. The number of the beast, 666, when deciphered using the Hebrew alphabet can be construed to mean "Nero Ceasar". Some think that John used the Hebrew alphabet to convey this message, embedded in the Greek text, since it would only be decipherable by a person knowledgeable in Hebrew.

I am by no means a scholar in these areas, but it is interesting to think that the Adventist church may be completely wrong regarding Revelation by placing the emphasis on the future, when the events may have already taken place. That Revelation may have been given to John to strengthen the faith of early Christians makes perfect sense, as at no other point in human history was the continuity of Christianity in so much jeopardy.

Dirk Anderson has a writeup on this, if anyone is interested: http://www.ellenwhite.org/faq_rev.htm

Greg
Chris
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 8:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greg, I tend to lean towards a partial or moderate preterist view of Revelation and Matt. 24. It makes a whole lot of sense to me, but I am by no means camping on it because there are just too many viable possibilities. I think we're probably not meant to know all the details with absolute certainty......yet.

Chris
Ric_b
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris,
I relate to your description well. Although the further I get from SDAism, the more I am interested in what Scripture has to say about my life and my relationship to the world right now, than in what the prophetic timelines mean.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1522
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also tend to see the eschatology issue from a partial preterist view--but as you said so well, Chris, I'm not "camping on it".

Since Revelation takes us to the new heaven and the new earth, it seem spossible that some of those events have future application as well.

Praise God we don't have to know--actually, it seems clear that He didn't want us to know all the details in advance!

Colleen
Greg
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Post Number: 49
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris and Colleen,

Thanks for your insights on Revelation. My experience growing up in Adventism is probably fairly typical when it comes to Revelation. I knew our church "had the truth" but I didn't know what "the truth" really was. My understanding was that we had the correct interpretation of end-time events and so we would be ready when they started to happen.

Taking the focus off eschatology and putting it on Jesus has been a radical change for me. Traditional Adventism won't allow an understanding of the salvation that is in Christ without throwing in a good dose of Revelation. As a result, the gospel becomes clouded by fear and uncertainty about the future. We lose sight of Jesus, who is here now, who we can abide in now.

I believe in my heart that if I don't let go of Christ, the events of Revelation, whether they point to something that has already happened or is yet to come, won't change the fact that I have salvation through Him.

Adventists would no doubt tell me I will be deceived if I don't understand Revelation. I'm trusting the Holy Spirit will make the truth plain, if I remain in Him.

Greg
Schasc
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok since we are talking about Revelation I will throw another text out that I need help with. I posted some of the bothersome ones(thanks for the input), but this thread seems to be the best place for the next one. What is your understanding of the texts in Revelation where it says that an endtime people will have the testimony of Jesus and in another text it says that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Phrophecy. Of course as SDA we were all taught that this referred to EGW's writings.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts

schasc
Jeremy
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Schasc,

John says in Revelation 1:9 that he was on the island of Patmos because of the testimony of Jesus. He certainly was NOT on the island of Patmos because of Ellen G. White's writings!!! So that destroys the SDA theory right there.

Here are a couple quotes from commentaries on Revelation 19:10.


quote:

CHUCK SMITH: v.10 John was so overwhelmed by what the angel was revealing to him that he began to worship the angel, who immediately stopped him. When the Holy Spirit speaks, He exalts Jesus Christ, never the instrument or the man. This is the sign of the true movement of God's Spirit. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" means that all prophecy has to do with Jesus Christ. He is the heart and soul of the Scriptures.--http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/chuck_smith/sg/revelation.html

DAVID GUZIK: d. The true spirit of prophecy always shows itself in bearing witness to Jesus: "any teaching of prophecy that takes our minds and hearts away from Him is not being properly communicated" (Hocking)--http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/david_guzik/sg/Rev_19.html




Another explanation is that the testimony of Jesus is the Holy Spirit. The Greek word for "testimony" is marturia. This same Greek word is translated "witness" in 1 John 5 in some translations, and "testimony" in other translations.

"This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7For there are three that testify:
8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." (1 John 5:6-11 NASB.)

It says that we have the testimony in ourselves. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit dwells in those of us who are believers, and it says in this passage that it is the Spirit who testifies. So when Revelation talks about "having the testimony" perhaps it simply means "having the Holy Spirit."

Here is a link which may be helpful: http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw20.htm

Anyway, it is very blasphemous to say that EGW's writings are the "Spirit of Prophecy" (they even capitalize it like that sometimes!)!!!

Here is a recent official statement from the General Conference session in 1995 declaring the SDA church's official belief in EGW as the "spirit of prophecy": http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main_stat24.html

They even make it clear that the official SDA belief is that EGW was a prophet (and what else could "spirit of prophecy" [and "gift of prophecy"] mean the way they use it???):


quote:

Although Ellen G White did not claim the title "prophet," we believe she did the work of a prophet, and more. She said: "My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there" (Selected Messages, Book One, p 36); "If others call me by that name [prophetess], I have no controversy with them" (ibid., p 34); "My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people" (ibid., p 36).




Jeremy
Dd
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, as always, Jeremy for the direct quotes. I had a friend tell me last year that the SDA brethren made EGW out to be a prophet to use and abuse their own power and that she had never considered herself to be a prophet . It is obvious that she either thought it herself or else heard it enough from them to believe in the title given her. I wish I would have had these quotes long ago. I am blessed by your willingness to give time and effort in sharing with us.
Goldenbear
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Schasc,
You are asking the same question I was about 6 months ago. A friend of mine, not an adventist, remarked that we adventist tended to really focus on prophecy a lot. I said yeah. We got to talking about prophecy and I asked him what he thought about prophecy... His response was to quote Rev 19:10 and say that all prophecy needs to testify of Jesus. If it isn't lifting up the name of Jesus, it isn't something that he worried about. That got me to thinking, and digging about this very thing.

For me the whole thing about the end of time, is a giant ruler for adventist. Somehow the are looking with one eye on the progression of their own spiritual growth and the other on the proverbial clock that is approaching 12:00, like somehow that it is a race to reach a more spiritual state before time ends. Hence so much talk about "getting ready".

It, in my thinking, is time for Christians to quit worrying about when time is going to end and their relationship to it, and get out there and show Christ's love to the world in a way that makes people recognize it as peculiar. Not just what you don't do or eat.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 396
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dd,

I thought of posting the following EGW quote recently, and for you in particular. :-)


quote:

"I am thankful that the instruction contained in my books establishes present truth for this time. These books were written under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit. I praise the Lord with heart and soul and voice, and I pray that He will lead into all truth those who will be led. I praise Him that He has so wonderfully spared my life up to this time, to bear the same message upon the important points of our faith that I have borne for half a century.--Letter 50, 1906, pp. 1-4. (To Elder W. W. Simpson, January 30, 1906.)

Released June 21, 1978."

(Manuscript Releases, Volume Eight, page 321, paragraph 1.)




She says that her books ESTABLISH truth! That is making her writings equal with or above the Bible. She is definitely saying that her writings are the Word of God and have equal or higher authority than the Bible--if they establish truth!

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on March 05, 2005)
Flyinglady
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Post Number: 1134
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jeremy, The longer I am out of adventism, the more I learn about it and the false prophet, EGW. So she does equate herself with and above the Bible. No wonder the SDA hold her in such high esteem. I am being sarcastic here, but they do hold her up there with the Bible. That is wrong.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Schasc, Jeremy's answer to your question is really good. Another point to consider is that prophecy is a gift of the Spirit to the church (Romans 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:10; Ephesians 4:11). This gift of the Holy Spirit is different from the prophets of the OT. In the OT, certain people were appointed to speak God's word to the Israelites, but that role of prophet, or an oracle appointed as God's mouthpiece to His people for a certain age or generation, ended with John the Baptist. With the coming of Jesus, God reveals Himself through His Son. Even John the Revelator did not function in the manner of an OT prophet. He has a special revelation from God, and his book ends with the solemn warning:Revelation 22:18-19: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the hioly city, which are described in this book."

Hebrews 1:1-2: "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various wasy, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

Prophets, or people revealing new information about God and salvation, are no longer needed.

The gift of prophecy in the NT, or New Covenant, is a gfit for the building up of the church, or, as 1 Cor. 12:7 puts it, "for the common good."

Prophets no longer reveal new truths. They testify about Jesus, and they are a gifts to the church along with evangelists, pastors, and teachers "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-13).

The gift of prophecy in the church is a gift of the Holy Spirit--He puts the words of God and the instruction of Jesus into believers' hearts and mouths. The gift of prophecy is not something given to one person who holds the gift for the whole church for generations. Rather, it is a living, continuous gift among the members of the church, and it works in unity with the gifts God gives to other believers: wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing miraculous powers, distinguishing between spirits, and tongues (1 Cor. 12:8-11).

The gift of prophecy does not reside in A PROPHET who is the mouthpiece of God for a whole people. It is merely one gift among many which the church will have scattered among its members according to the will of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:11).

The reason Adventists choke over those texts in Revelation is that from infancy, we've been taught that Ellen's books are called The Spirit of Prophecy, and Ellen herself even is equal in Adventist minds with The Spirit of Prophecy.

The testimony of Jesus is just that--an individual person's story of Jesus' impact in his life. Revelation 12:11 says that the saints overcome Ssatan "by the blood of the Lanmb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death."

A believer's testimony is always Jesus. The spirit of prophecy always clarifies and exalts Jesus and calls the church to honor Him and be loyal to Him.

It is actually quite blasphemous for the SDA church to have used the phrase "spirit of prophecy" which, in context, refers to a God-given gift of speaking to exalt and magnify Jesus to the church, and give that phrase to Ellen's writings as a means of imprinting on the members' minds the idea that leaving Ellen is abandoning God's revelation.

All Christ-followers have the Holy Spirit. All have the commission to speak well of Jesus. Some have a special gifting to proclaim God's will and truth to the church, but his/ her proclamations will never stray from Biblical revelation. Nothing they say will contradict or add to the Bible.

Because all believers have the Holy Spirit, a reality which the OT faithful did not have because Jesus had not yet died and risen, the gift of prophecy functions differently than it did then.

God has given us Himself--he no longer needs prophets to reveal Him or salvation or Biblical exegesis to us. Rather, prophecy is for the building, instructionm, and maturation of the church.

Colleen
Flyinglady
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Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 10:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
Thank you for the explanation of what the spirit of prophecy is to the Christ followers. It makes so much sense now that my EGW filters are off.
Diana
Skip
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Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greg wrote:

"I believe in my heart that if I don't let go of Christ, the events of Revelation, whether they point to something that has already happened or is yet to come, won't change the fact that I have salvation through Him."

"Adventists would no doubt tell me I will be deceived if I don't understand Revelation. I'm trusting the Holy Spirit will make the truth plain, if I remain in Him."

Greg"

I think you've got it ALL together Greg. There's NOTHING we can do to change anything about "The End" like we'd been taught before. Here we thought that we'd be put on the spot and have to be hung for keeping Sabbath. But what if some of that stuff in Revelation 13 does indeed turn out like it says?: That "The Beast" that ruled for 1260 years, will "come back to life" and demand that we worship the "Image" to the beast they set up in the future?

WHAT IF?

It seems to me that all the laws are changing so that anybody that doesn't fit a profile, will be in big trouble with the government very soon. It may not be over "Saturday or Sunday" but there may be some "Moral issue" that they put everything onto that we won't be expecting. That's why our new understanding in Christ is such a "Revelation" to all of us now!

What ever happens it doesn't matter as long as we "stay in Christ" and do His will, when we "see it" coming. And there's a good chance that Christ will come and just shock everybody who isn't expecting Him, JUST LIKE HE SAID HE WOULD.

One TV Preacher that my wife and I have watched says that Satan will impersonate the Second Coming of Christ at the "Sixth Trump" of Revelation, with the "real" second coming being the "Seventh Trump". He says that if you can pinch yourself and it hurts, then you're still in your body and that therefore what you're seeing on "the news" is all fakery. He teaches that at the real Second Cominig, that our bodies will be burned off first, leaving everybody in spirit bodies standing before Christ. So, if everybody is no longer in physical bodies, then you can be assured that it's all over!

If that is true, then he may be right about how dangerous it is to believe in the "Left Behind" novels. As he points out, everybody will be "willing abductees" when Satan pulls up and lands in his big UFOs in the sky that will be shown on international TV!

And 60 million Christians have bought those "Left Behind" books, who now believe that "The Rapture" is true, when Paul and Peter didn't know anything about a "Secret Rapture" in their day. Just like the Adventist Investagative Judgment when you study "The Secret Rapture" you see how full of holes it is, and what a deception it is. So WHY is Satan setting everybody up to believe in "The Rapture?"

Could it be so that everybody "will want to get on board" when he comes and "fakes the second coming?" Is it being "Adventist Parinoid" to still believe that a "Great Deception" of some kind could come at the very end? Or do I believe that because of what Adventism drumbed into my head for so long?

It's just that as I look at how well they've kept the UFO Subject so "secret" for so long, then it is there for Satan to use at the end for his evil designs. Why wouldn't he use UFOs OR THE BELIEF IN THEM, to get everybody to do a certain thing right at the end? What if he "adbucts" a few million "big names" and then lands at the Beast's backyard in Rome? "WHAT IF" all these big names like Peter Jennings and Dan Rather get off the BIG UFOs and tells the public how "they're here to save us?"

The 60 Million people who have read LEFT BEHIND would believe "that new truth" at once, and everybody else in the world, with all the press supporting it, will also "believe in them!" And then, anybody who won't go along with the New World Order would be in big trouble!

Does that make any sense or not? Is this just the ravings of an "Adventist mind gone wild," or will they really USE the UFO Deception in some way, right at the end?

Skip
skipbaker@cox.net
Belvalew
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Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 8:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skip, have you read any of the books from the Left Behind series? If you have, then the imagery you are using with the UFO's would be a warning sign to the faithful, even for those who've read that series.

I'm not saying I believe or disbelieve the rapture theories. I'm trusting Jesus to take care of ALL the details of how we get from here to there. I'm also aware that Jesus has promised that the faithful will not come under judgment, and the Great Tribulation is truly a judgment event.

Jesus may simply hide the faithful away, or shield them from what is going on around them. Of course, there is also the mention in Revelation of those who suffer through the Tribulation, and those who are martyred during the Tribulation. There are a lot of things I cannot explain, but I'm with Greg. I know who I believe in, and I know that he can handle all of the details.

Give me Jesus.
Belva

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