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Busymom
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Username: Busymom

Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

March 6, 2005


Dear Pastor Daniel,
Thank you for your phone call. I apologize for not meeting with you in person, but as I said my husband is opposed to the meeting. He has said that he sees me as a happy person now, and does not want to see that change. I am writing this letter to reiterate the reasons that I requested my membership be removed from the Adventist Church. Last spring I found Dirk Anderson'sí web site and started to research whether Ellen White meant the biblical tests of a true prophet. My conclusion after researching was she was not a true prophet.
I was born into the Adventist faith. I have always felt that I was not good enough to merit Godís love. I felt guilty if my house was not spotless on Friday. I felt guilty because I wasnít able to maintain a vegan diet. I felt guilty because I was so far from perfection. I felt guilty if I let my children ride their bikes on the Sabbath.
Besides questioning Ellen White I also reread my Bible. I did not find any text in the Bible that said I needed to obtain perfection. Isaiah 64:6 states ìall our righteous acts are like filthy ragsî. Galatians 3:11 states ìClearly no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith.î My study of the New Covenant showed me that every law that was in the Old Testament is now more intense, i.e. do not kill was explained by Jesus to mean do not hate as well. The Sabbath commandent is no longer a day but the expectation that we should be resting in Jesus 24 hours a day seven days a week. Since increasing my study and praying for understanding and to be filled with the Holy Spirit I have become more careful of what I watch on TV, and what I read.
I have been attending a nondenominational church and have been so blessed by the fact that they have a nursery. It is so wonderful to hear the word of God every week. I have also been blessed to go every Thursday to a womanís group which is a support group for women whose husbands do not believe in God. (my husband does not attend church with me and still questions if God exists).
I miss seeing all of the members of the Adventist church, but do not believe that the doctrine that the Adventist church teaches is biblical. For the first time I am realizing that God loveís me the way that I am. I believe that we all need to have a heart relationship with Jesus. It is not what we know but who we know that saves us. Both of my parents died young, a correct understanding of end times did not save them. Hopefully their hearts were right with Jesus. I pray that you all have a heart relationship with Jesus. Blessings

This is the letter I was planning to send to the pastor and the church board. Evidently, they still have me as a member. Please comment if you think it is appropriate. I was afraid to make it too long, because it would really take a book to explain all of the reasons. Thanks
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 357
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

B-Mom,
It is beautifully written. I think it is the perfect length, with the perfect message. It is from your heart and your love for Jesus is obvious.

:-)
Tracey
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Username: Tracey

Post Number: 229
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought it was great..VEry similar to the letter that I sent except I didn't give real specific reasons as to why I left. I didn't think it would matter to my pastor. Plus, I had been treated harshly.

I didn't leave an SDA church though, either.
Lindylou
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Username: Lindylou

Post Number: 29
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

B-Mom - Your letter is very sincere and heartfelt. It explains your reasoning in a succinct and clear way. And it is obvious that you love the Lord! Blessings to you!
lindylou
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 1149
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom,
You letter is heartfelt and direct and to the point. God bless you as you send it. And I will pray for your husband.
I remember last year when you first posted here about the church people not liking it because you took your children with you to a service and something about rain. I do not remember the rest.
Never forget we have an awesome God.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1525
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom, I'm proud of you! I like your letter, and I really like that you articulated your respect for your husband as part of the reason you won't have the interview with the pastor. That sort of respect is generally not encouraged in ADventism, but it is Biblical.

Your letter is clear, succinct, and ends powerfully with a personal appeal to the pastor.

Even if it doesn't change his mind, I think your letter will have an impact on the pastor.

I'll keep your husband/you in prayer.

Colleen
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1635
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom, It was a wonderfully written letter. I am glad to hear that yopu are experiencing happiness now like never before. Colleen, I think I have never sat through a SDA sermon about a husband being the head of the home or even a SDA sermon about Jesus being like the bridegroom of his church. Don't Adventists get into that?
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1534
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pretty much no, Susan.
Goldenbear
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Username: Goldenbear

Post Number: 73
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 7:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom,

After hearing sermons yesterday and your letter, I am motivated to send my letter as well.

Thanks for posting your draft.

Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 772
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 7:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, back when I was still young and dumb about the religious issues, I had told B I thought it was his job to be the spiritual leader of the relationship and the home if we married. He had never heard of anything like it. Now he claims he wants to be the spiritual leader of Jonathan, that it's his "God given right". Funny how it turns now .....

And since I've been doing prayers with Jonathan at night, I've gone ahead and done it on B's night to be consistent...so B has started it too...and I've noticed he never prays in Jesus name... I think that's been mentioned on here.... why is that? He still won't pray at mealtime until I tell Jonathan we're going to pray, even if he's halfway done with his meal. And he has to hold everyone's hand...it's quite funny. I wish I had started that with my other kids that young.
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 695
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Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 7:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to admit that I have not fully worked through all the issues and arguments related to egalitarianism vs. complimentarianism. I will not attempt to take a strong stance in this post (though I would be very interested in the views of others). However, I find the SDA position rather schizophrenic.

On the one hand, SDA culture and most SDA ministers seem to promote an egalitarian view. After all, SDAs follow a female prophet, train females in their seminaries, and employee females as staff pastors and chaplains.

On the other hand, SDAs refuse to ordain women. Denying women ordination would seem more consistent with a comlimentarian view, but itís completely inconsistent with other SDA practices and their history as a group largely founded on the authority of a woman.

Does anyone else see a strange dichotomy here? If so, can you explain it or give theories as to why it exists? Iíve never been able to reconcile this.

Chris

Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1638
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Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 7:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, My mom recently was telling me about the most wonderful SDA minister she has had the opportunity to hear in recent years. Hyveth Williams. My mom told me the conference won't ordain Pator Williams so she pastors at a different sort of SDA church. I don't really understand the deatils. However, I remember thinking the whole "logic" behind what I was hearing didn't make sense. BTW, The Evangical Lutheran ordains women, has for many years now. One of the local Episcipalian priests is a lady. I love hearing her sermons. You can go on Dirks site and see a photocopy of EGW's oedination cirtificate from the SDA denomination. I understand they ordained EGW just so they could pay her a ministers salary. That's just so slimy.
Busymom
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Username: Busymom

Post Number: 40
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Chris, my understanding from reading the Adventist Review back when I subscribed was that the other divisions i.e. Africa, South America etc. were the reason women were not ordained. If it was just up to the North American Division women would have been ordained. But, the church needed to make a decision as a whole, obviously in most of the Third World, women do not have the same privileges that women in North America do.

As an Adventist I never understood the texts regarding submission, and found them upsetting. What I have learned since leaving is that submission is for all Christians. "Submission is an attitude of a Christ-centered life. It is humility in practice; compliance to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that children are to submit to parents, citizens to government, young men and Christians to leaders." (quote from
Beloved Unbeliever) I believe that God can still work through my husband even though he isn't saved. God is not limited in his power. In Habakkuk God talks about raising up the Babylonians to accomplish his purpose.

The fact that I practice submission in my marriage does not make me a door mat or mean that I wouldn't take action if my children were in any danger. My husband asks for my opinion in any decisions that are made. For me it is a matter of trust in God. Hope that makes sense. Melissa you are in my prayers, your situation is different than mine and I pray that God will give you wisdom
as you raise your children. I believe that what a mother believes is a big influence on her children.
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 774
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Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, Thanks, Busymom. I realize I don't live the ideal and that a lot of things in scripture related to marriage, etc. don't apply to me as a single. Therefore, I don't feel any obligtion to allow B's religious rules to reign in my home. Obviously, I can't control what he does in his. I have seen "headship" practiced in several ways in homes through the years, and I think exactly what it looks like for each couple is probably unique to each couple given their individual strengths. I'm very good financially, and it would be foolish for me to disregard my knowledge to a husband who really didn't have gifts in that area....and it would be equally foolish for him to take on that role when it is not his strength. But it would sure be nice if my husband had wanted to encourage developing our children's spiritual lives. My now ex-husband still says he "reads the bible" with our 12 year old about once every 6 months... I'm not sure if that does more damage than good given the poor consistency it shows.

I know both parents influence the child, and how each child responds is probably dependent upon the child and how each parent lives their faith and how each child perceives benefit and truth as they grow up. It's very complex raising kids. It sure looked easier when I was reading the books and listening to the radio shows about all the ideals ... :-)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1536
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, I have noticed and pondered that strange SDA dichotomy you mention for several years. It became really clear to me when Richard and I were church board members at LLU Church in the mid-90's before we left. The issue of ordaining women came up, and one board meeting was devoted to discussion with invitations open for church members to attend and present their opinions. At the time, Sligo and La Sierra were considering or actually ordaining women.

At the time, I favored ordination, but as I sat in that board meeting, I saw dynamics that made me most upset. Of course, the issue was hot and divisive. Those arguing against ordination tended to be old school pastor-types whose arguments really weren't Bible-based. They tended to be cultural, and they reeked of veiled chauvinism. Plenty of women opposed ordination, also--my take on them--as a generalization--was not that their opposition was Biblical but that they didn't want to be under the authority of another woman.

It's amazing how many SDA women fight to hold their position in a man's world; for one woman to receive an honor that would place her in authority over other women would make that woman mnore "successful", and the other hard-working women would be forced to "submit" to one of their own kind who just "got lucky". Understand, none of this was ever expressed in words, but it was a clear dynamic I sensed. It was a jealousy or competition issue, to some extent.

On the flip side of the coin, those arguing FOR ordination disturbed me the most. The men who favored ordination appeared egalitarian and modern, open-minded and accommodating, educated and accepting--but there were attitudes "around the edges" that really bothered me. I worked with pro-ordination men on Adventist Today and also as the LLU church PR directors, most of Richard's and my interactions were with pro-ordination men.

Here's what bothered me about most of them. First, while they were overt about their admiration and acceptance of "capable" women, many of them betrayed an undertone of condescension--sometimes with a passive-aggressive edge. I'm not sure I can adequately explain what I mean, but the experience was distinct. I felt these men "admired" the knoweldge, abilities, and leadership of qualified women, but there was almost a sense of patronizing, a "She will be good for our cause or project" sort of feeling from them. It was almost as if they "cultivated" promising women because it was good for their own political standing, it meant they were open-minded and "progressive".

Yet these men were weak in subtle but profound ways. If there were a power play or a disagreement between "important" people, these men would seldom take a stand and declare that integrity or truth would win. They wouldn't dream of opposing someone they considered powerful or important or wealthy or influential even if that person were clearly wrong or destructive. Their "egalitarianism" and "open-mindedness" was so pervasive that there was no bottom line of integrity. We experienced the fallout from this type of behavior on more than one occasion.

As for the women--that was probably the behavior that offended me the most--probably because I am a woman, and I thought those that argued for ordination hurt the cause of women more than helped it. In general, the women who fought (and I do mean FOUGHT) for ordination were living their lives proving that they could be as good as any man in a man's world. Their anger and outrage against the provincialism of non-oridination was downright upsetting, and I thought it made them look really bad. Why would anyone ordain a woman who was FIGHTING "male dominance"? The fight was their issue--ordination was a feminist principle, not an recognition of a call of God. Although they used "God's call" to women as part of their arguments, still their overriding motivation was not ministry; it was feminist equality.

Interstingly, most of the women who were "militant" about ordination also had adopted professional looks that were pretty androgenous. They wore pretty severe business suits, had short haircuts without an emphasis on style or softness, fairly plain makeup, etc. They were not going to be "out-powered" by any man.

So, on the pro-women's ordination side we had weak, patronizing men who admired (sometimes a little too much!) capable women, and androgenous women with a cause to make women equal and to eradicate male-domination.

ON the anti-ordination side, we had pompous, even oafish chauvinistic men and quiet, in-the-shadows-types of women who nonetheless felt themselves to be equal to or better than the women arguing for ordination.

(Please realize I KNOW I'M GENERALIZING! But the caricatures are pretty accurate in general.)

What I've found in our church, which functions on a complementarian rather than an egalitarian framework (in other words, they believe the Biblical model is that men and women are equal in God's sight and are equally "powerful" and important, but their roles are different), is that the men tend to be more respectful of women, and women tend to be much less dissatisfied.

In our church, only men can hold the position of elder, and while there are women on the pastoral staff, they are not "preaching" pastors although they often teach classes for both men and women.

At least in our church, by taking seriously the Ephesians and Colossian model of men having authority in the home and the Timothy model of men having authority in the church, men really take seriously their responsibility before God to care for those under their authority as Christ would care for the church. Further, the women can take responsibility for the people and functions under their authority knowing that there is someone who will be protecting them from behind so to speak. Further, since the men are answerable to God for managing with the selfless love of Christ, they will ahve to answer to God for decisions they make that affect the women and children under them.

Overall, there is SO MUCH LESS tension, comptetitiveness, and dissatisfaction. I find it to be a great relief to see Richard as someone who I can turn to for strength and protection instead of fighting for my rights. Conversely, when I stop fighting for my "rights", he's much more engaged with me and less defensive.

I've been really astonished at the feminity of the women at Trinity church (it's the only Christian church I've been involved with, so it's my example!). There are some very educated, articulate, and powerful women there, but they are not competeing with the men. They have authority, respect, and a voice, and both men and women listen. AT the same time, they are not fighting or competing with men; they respect their husbands, and they respect the church leaders. I have to say (and I have been involved as a discussion group leader of women's ministries for five years) that I almost never hear women bad-mouth their husbands. While some women have very difficult husbands and some even have unbelieving husbands, still the attitude I generally encounter is one of surrendering to God and seeking His help to love their husbands for God. Further, our leader, Elizabeth Inrig, is outspoken that gossipping is not allowed. If we have a complaint about another person that we can't resolve, we are to go with that person to seek input from a mentor or member of the staff. I've never before been in groups of women where they aren't competing, but that dynamic is largely absent in women's ministries at our church.

I'm discovering that when we begin to find our identity in Christ, He also gives us our true identity as men and women. There is authority and power in femininity and masculinity that are equal in effectiveness and outcome but are completely different in role. When women try to function like men and men try to back away from their masculinity to accommodate women's demands, both men and women lose their power.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that God had it right for humanity in general, not just for Roman times: he designed men to have authority that protects and provides for the nurture and growth of women and children, and women have the divine calling to respect their husband and their authority. Similarly, in a church (or even a government), we are called by God to respect those in authority over us, not to compete with them and undermine them.

I'm afraid I'm sounding like I've "sold out" to a weak position, but I'm finding that God uses us as men and as women even more effectively when we respect the roles He has given us. Actually, it seems quite counter-intuitive, but my experience is that I have mmore authority, more "power", more respect, etc. since I've begun to take Ephesians 5 seriously, and I'm in awe of the strength and kindness and leadership that I've watched God developing in Richard as I've become content to be a woman, not an andogenous "partner". And I see the same phenomenon at work in a corporate setting in our church.

I realize I'll probably take some hits for being this open about this, but I have to say I'm seeing the wisdom of the Biblical position!

Colleen
Tracey
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Username: Tracey

Post Number: 234
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've been really astonished at the feminity of the women at Trinity church (it's the only Christian church I've been involved with, so it's my example!). There are some very educated, articulate, and powerful women there, but they are not competeing with the men. They have authority, respect, and a voice, and both men and women listen. AT the same time, they are not fighting or competing with men; they respect their husbands, and they respect the church leaders. I have to say (and I have been involved as a discussion group leader of women's ministries for five years) that I almost never hear women bad-mouth their husbands. While some women have very difficult husbands and some even have unbelieving husbands, still the attitude I generally encounter is one of surrendering to God and seeking His help to love their husbands for God. Further, our leader, Elizabeth Inrig, is outspoken that gossipping is not allowed. If we have a complaint about another person that we can't resolve, we are to go with that person to seek input from a mentor or member of the staff. I've never before been in groups of women where they aren't competing, but that dynamic is largely absent in women's ministries at our church.

This is so normal at my church also.. Wonderful!


I'm discovering that when we begin to find our identity in Christ, He also gives us our true identity as men and women. There is authority and power in femininity and masculinity that are equal in effectiveness and outcome but are completely different in role. When women try to function like men and men try to back away from their masculinity to accommodate women's demands, both men and women lose their power.


Sooo agreed!!!
Susan_2
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Post Number: 1640
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Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When we had a Seventh Day Baptist church locally I went there nearly each week for several yeares. I'd still be attending there except the church got too small and had to shut down. However, the SDB ordains women. I heard a wonderful sermon at the SDB church one Sabbath many years ago about Paul admonishing women to be quiet in the church. The SDB minister said it was because the women are the mothers of the young children. These women are the primary caretakers of the children. Children are disruptive and annoying little things and the women need to get the kids out of there so the others can actually hear abnd learn from the service. The mothers don't need to be telling their kids to "Shut up" all during the service, just get them out of there. I liked that explaniation so I latched onto it. I have told this to numerous SDA's as well as other Christians and they all like that reasoning.
Dd
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Post Number: 362
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Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
No hits from me for your openness. :-)

I believe I am in a perfect situation to observe what you have noted first hand. As a member of BSF for 7 years now, I have NEVER heard one note of discord amongst members. I have been in discussion groups, in years past, that have personalities that are very difficult to blend in with the others in the group. There is never any talk behind that person's back. No put downs...no little, quiet jabs.

Since, at this point in my life, I remain "tied" in with Adventism, I am constantly amazed at the snipping, back bitting, gossiping that is a daily experience among the mothers at school. It is not horrible but it is there...little groups off in their little corners. I do not have a little group so the different groups whisper their own little "news" to me. As I have grown in my understanding and love for the guidance the Holy Spirit gives, I become more and more withdrawn from these "friends". Despite living in an SDA-mecca, my circle of non-SDA Christian friends grows while the SDA circle grows smaller. It is just natural for me to gravitate toward those who live with the Light of God's love and Word.


GIVE ME JESUS!
Melissa
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Post Number: 776
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, what you described in your current church is also the norm at my church.
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 696
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your comments, Colleen. Very interesting. I admit that the plain reading of scripture seems to argue for a complimentarian approach. Perhaps I am reluctant to go there whole heartedly because my pride makes me scared to be seen as a chauvinist or misogynist.

Chris

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