| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 401 Registered: 10-2004  |
I find it particularly interesting that Ellen G. White went directly against what Paul wrote: "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man..." (1 Timothy 2:12 NASB.) And Paul says, "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized." (1 Corinthians 14:37-38 NASB.) Ellen certainly taught and exercised much authority over men! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1539 Registered: 12-2003  |
Chris, the amazing thing is that when men accept their God-given authority, they are anything but chauvenistic. The more Richard has grown into the role of being responsible for the well-being of our family and even for taking the "buck stops here" role in the work we do together, the more cared-for I feel. I certainly tell him what I think--(that's probably not hard for anyone here to imagine me doing!)--but I no longer feel I have to persuade him. He is God's responsibility, as I am--and I can leave Him in God's hands for God to persuade and teach what he needs to know. And for his part, taking responsibility doesn't result in his treating me as "less-than". I actually feel much more considered and understood than otherwise. At church I see the same thing. The men are not chauvinistic, nor are they playing games with the women that leave them feeling slightly manipulated. The Biblical model really does result in everyone's being more truly free and respected, in spite of the decades of conditioning we've received that has taught us women are oppressed by power-hungry men. When the Holy Spirit is involved, the Biblical model is a model of freedom. The Holy Spirit, however, is a significant piece of the puzzle. Without being born again, people use those Biblical roles to oppress. When people are committed to Jesus, though, the whole model is one of serving, not lording over. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 404 Registered: 10-2004 |
Great post, Colleen. And yes, the Bible even specifically says not to "lord it over": "Therefore, I exhort the elders among you...shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:1-3 NASB.) "Not that we lord it over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm." (2 Corinthians 1:24 NASB.) Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2005 |
I will second what Jeremy just said aboout the posts above. It seems that the text in Timothy is a real red flag on accepting EGW's authority. I've never seen a woman with as much authority as she wielded and still controls today. Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1642 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dd, I would hope the ladies from the school will read all the many passages in both the OT and the NT about idol talk and gossip. There are many texts that deal with that very topic. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 212 Registered: 7-2004  |
Colleen, your post brings back many memories. I remember being immersed in that debate in the mid '80s at AU. At the time I was staunchly and vocally against it. Later my view totally flip-flopped, but that may have been as much about my reaction against [b]all[/b] things I associated with my old beliefs. Besides I found that irony of giving women the leadership roles, authority, and responsibility without the "ordination" too silly to maintain. And then, quite honestly it became one of those issues that just wasn't that important to me either way. The ordination of females and/or having females in leadership roles was not one of the criteria in our church selection. We visited churches all along that spectrum. We have settled into a church where one of the preaching pastors is female. In a funny twist, it is my wife who has the hardest time relating to this pastor's sermons. I find that she has sermons that are strong on personal application and genuiness. I don't know whether her gender contributes to those strengths or not, but I won't complain about Biblically-based sermons stressing personal application from any person. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 107 Registered: 6-2001 |
I visited an Adventist church in Seattle one Sabbath with my mother-in-law while she was visiting us. She said she thought I would enjoy it because it was contemporary. Well the only contemporary thing about it was the woman who spoke during the sermon time. Since that was my only time attending, I am unaware of the church structure, but I was surprised to say the least. From what I remember, she preached almost entirely from a Josh McDowell book and not from the Bible. Everything else was so traditional from the beautiful pipe organ to the equally beautiful choir and the equally beautiful turn of the century building. (Also traditional was the woman who sat in front of us who "befriended" us by telling us about the woman who was playing the pipe organ. She was the minister's wife at a local Sunday-keeping church, and the Adventist woman was praying that she, her husband, and her whole Sunday-keeping church would see the light and become Adventists!! Unable to keep my comments to myself I told her I was not an Adventist. Hehe. She sweetly bounced back with some comment about how the 4th commandment is the only commandment with the word "remember" in it. I smiled benignly at her and continued on my way. I admit, my mother-in-law said the service was not what she thought it would be. Looking back, I guess you would call the church progressive in an odd sort of way. I wonder how the woman was able to preach if she wasn't a pastor. BTW at my church (free methodist) we have a couple women pastors who preach from time to time. One is also the worship leader, and the other holds some position at the local free methodist university. Randomly, Hannah | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1645 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hannah, what you wrote above is very interesting. I attend the Evengical Lutheran. There are a half-dozen or so major denominations of Lutheran. In the ELCA women are ordained, can hold all the same positions as men. There are several denominations (synods) of Lutheran in which the women in the congreation aren't even allowed to vote in church elections, let alone be pastors. In the Catholic as well as the traditional prostatent services towards the beginning of the service they have what is referred to 'passing the Lord's peace'. This is where we greet one another and generally will say something to each other such as, ' may the Lord bless you and keep you in is care', or ' peace of the Lord', etc. I have akways wondered if when the SDA's do their "Happy Sabbath" greeting if they got the idea from the passing of the Lord's peace. About the organ player who attended a Sunday church and was at the SDA to do the organ. Here locally the SDA organist does the organ and the bell chior at the Methodist church. One week several months ago he played at the Lutheran church where I attend. After the service I went up to him and said, "Oh, I recognise you. I take my mom each week to the SDA church up here. I have sat through many services there and have heard you play." He looked a bit bewildered and asked me why I was there. I told him this is my home church, that I only attend the SDA with my mom because that is her church of choice. He then asked me if I had been raised SDA. I knew what he was getting at. Generally SDA's assume if an adult attends a different church than their elderly SDA parents then the parents must have converted to SDA after they had raised their childrenn to be Sunday-keepers. I told him I had been raised SDA but I have since converted out of Adventism. He looked at me with a bewildered look and even though I run into him frequently he has not initiated a conversation ever again with me. However, I always try to catch him and say something like, "I enjoy your organ playing so much. I am looking forward to hearing you bless us over at St. John's with your music again soon." He will thank me and walk on. It's kind of hard to put into words but it's like I can 'feel' him thinking I have betrayed the truth. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 236 Registered: 9-2004 |
I asked C about the husband's authority in the home and being the head as Christ is the head. He said that yes, his church did teach that. We had a messianic rabbi at one point talking with us, and he suggested the word Yielding over using submission. I like that word better. But I figure if two people love in Christ, yielding, submitting to one another won't be a win-lose situation but a win-win for both people. I have had to teach and be an example of serving others to him though.. Which was an important lesson in Jesus' ministry | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 108 Registered: 6-2001 |
Susan, I know what you mean about "feeling" them thinking about you. I feel that when I wear jewelry to SDA churches, or pants. It just inspires me to walk more queenly. About the pipe organ. I'm one dichotomous person. I love contemporary praise and worship music, but at the same time I love a strong pipe organ complete with choir and "pipe organ songs" i.e. "how great thou art" and "a mighty fortress is our God." Something inside me was strangely happy listening to that pipe organ, although I was disappointed they liked their choir so much the congregation hardly ever got to sing!! Confusedly, Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1542 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hannah, you don't sound confused to me! I'll ALWAYS love pipe organ and choral music! And I've come to love praise music as well. They serve different purposes for me--they move me in related but different ways. I can't explain it, but I don't think we're confused. Eclectic, maybe--! Colleen | ||
| Karenjw Registered user Username: Karenjw Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hello all. I have been/was an SDA for 42 years. Some of the things you-all are claiming I was never taught. One thing is, that EGW was "in authority over men". What I understand is, she wrote and told what she believed she was shown by God, and the new SDA group was made up of men. There have been many things in these forum talks people are claiming EGW did/was that I was not taught. One thing, she never claimed to be a prophetess, she said she was a messenger. I'm still sorting through all these facts/fiction. Just seems there is error on both sides for what is the truth and what is not. Regardless of what the SDA people claim about EGW now, it does not mean that is what she claimed for herself. Maybe she'd turn over in her grave if she could hear some of the things SDA's are attributing her with. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 301 Registered: 5-2002 |
Welcome Karenjw! Here is what Ellen claimed for herself: "I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend."--Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of the Battle Creek church; See Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 34-36.) and... "My work includes much more than this name (prophetess) signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people."--Letter 55, 1905. (In Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 32, 35, 36.) One can get caught up in arguing out the semantics of "prophet" vs. "messenger", but one thing is very clear. Ellen claimed to be MORE than a prophet. The fact that she did not use the "P" word for herself does not exclude her from the tests of a prophetess. She claimed that God showed her many things, and that her writings - all of them - were "precious rays of light from the throne of God". Paul commands us in the Lord to test everyone who claims to speak for the Spirit. False "prophet" or false "messenger", call it what you will... Ellen White fails the tests. Best of luck and blessings from Above as you study to show thyself approved. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 787 Registered: 7-2003  |
Hi Karen. Welcome to the forum. I've heard that statement about EGW never claiming to be a prophetess, and though that may be true, it is somewhat symantical. If you look at the definitions of prophet and messenger, they are similar. For example, the word "apostle" is also translated as messenger, while one place that uses "prophet" is literally "a beholder in vision". There is another word (malak) that is defined as "a messenter; specifically of God, that is an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger." Another word I found interesting that I think applies is that of naba...it's definition is "to prophesy, that is speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse): - prophesy (-ing) make self a prophet." The greek word "prophetes" means a foreteller; by analogy an inspired speaker; by extension a poet. (all definitions from strongs dictionary). By definition, I think a messenger is actually considered "higher" than a prophet. Functionally, it seems they are very similar, though. Reality is that contemporaries of her day called her a prophet and though she didn't choose that word for herself (at least in any public record we have available), if you look at her descriptions to what she did and those words above, you might find some similarities. | ||
| Karenjw Registered user Username: Karenjw Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 |
Freeatlast, thank you for your input. This is interesting info. Have you ever read that EGW wore jewelry? An SDA told me that years after she died, some elders or church types actually airbrushed the jewelry off in her photos, but I cannot find any "official" info on this and an actual photo of her with jewelry. So far I feel like the world has been pulled out from under me, I am in a daze and feel very very sad. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 109 Registered: 6-2001 |
To me when EGW calls herself "more than a prophet" it is like a college professor saying he is "more than a grade school teacher." The fact is, she wasn't just putting herself on the same page as the Biblical prophets, she was elevating her message ABOVE theirs. I just don't see how she got away with it!! Incredulously, Hannah | ||
| Karenjw Registered user Username: Karenjw Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thank you Melissa. This is all so much to assimilate after 42 years of being SDA. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 371 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome Karen, I understand your thoughts on EGW completely. It all is so very confusing. You have come to a place where it is safe to say what you think. We may not agree with you but this forum is like non-other. I have never heard anyone put someone else down for sharing their thoughts (though you will hear different views, it always seems to me to be done in love). I was never comfortable in asking a question or sharing a thought with a SDA. I was to afraid of the put downs - silent or spoken. It still is a source of frustration for me that I continue to have some "fear" even though I am at a place in my journey where I am very comfortable and at peace in the understandings the Holy Spirit has placed on my heart. I encourage you to stick around, share your thoughts, questions, findings...you will find that the center of this forum is Jesus Christ our risen Savior and the Word of God. I would love to hear about your background and how you have come to join us on FAF. Blessings. P.S. The "proof" of EGW is in her own writings. I am sure your post will prompt many to share with you direct quotes written from her pen. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 788 Registered: 7-2003 |
Karen, one of the hardest things to share in two dimension words is empathy, and I'm so sorry if my reply sounded insensitive. As Dd said, you are safe here to say what you think and to grow and learn with all of us. We're all family here.... | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 410 Registered: 10-2004 |
Karen, welcome to the forum! We're glad to have you here.  Here are a couple of links regarding jewelry, with photos even. http://www.ellenwhite.org/contra7.htm http://www.truthorfables.com/EGW_and_Jewelry.htm Melissa said, "Reality is that contemporaries of her day called her a prophet..." That is true and here is what Ellen had to say about that: "To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out." (1SM, page 34, para. 5) Ellen did exercise much authority over men. She would write "testimonies" to them telling them exactly what they had to do and could not do in many matters. Jeremy |
