| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 358 Registered: 10-2004  |
Here is an even more interesting related news article: http://www.lifenews.com/state860.html Here's an excerpt:
The guy is basically saying that it's "neat" to have a ceremony for the baby you murder! Jeremy | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 201 Registered: 7-2004  |
In the article, Sackett also says I don't know how accurate that statement is, but if the abortion truly was warranted, then it's certainly reasonable to think a ceremony and burial options would be offered. In an earlier part of the article, it said included with the aborted fetuses are ones from miscarriages. In both cases, miscarriage and a fetus truly needing to be aborted, it would not be classified as murder. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1431 Registered: 12-2003  |
H-m-m-m--I wonder if at his hospital they only call the procedure "therpeutic abortion" when the fetus's condition is incompatible with life. I know that at Loma Linda, abortions are sometimes done under completely different names--names that would deceive anyone who didn't see the procedure. I had a friend in medical school who graduated last year. One of her classmates, a non-SDA Christian, was doing an elective surgery rotation. She went in to observe a procedure (my friend couldn't remember what it was called), and once in the operating room she discovered the doctor was preparing to do an abortion. She asked it that was what they were doing, and he said "Yes". She was horrified. It's hard to know, but I have to admit that I have some skepticism. Have you all read Teresa and Arthur Beem's story on this website? It's quite surprising. Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 650 Registered: 7-2003  |
I think one of the great myths about abortion is the issue of abortions for the "health of the mother". People usually think this phrase must be dealing with life and death matters. This is not usually the case. What most people don't realize is that this phrase includes the emotional "health" of the mother. So if a pregnancy is stressful in any way then the baby can be killed for the "health" of the mother. My understanding is that abortions to actually save the LIFE of the mother are relatively rare. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 727 Registered: 7-2003  |
Yes, Chris. I studied this issue in college. As I recall the numbers, fewer than 5% of all abortions are for the hotbuttons listed...life of mother, incest/rape, defect of child. MOST are birth control options after the fact. IF the child is "incompatible" with life, yet still alive, why not let "nature" take it's course? Is a parent going to really grieve less if that is the true issue? Or is that a smokescreen to hide real motives? My sister-in-law's preborn baby "died" in the womb. It was an awful day when she had to have it removed since it didn't pass on it's own. The difference between the parents of the exception and the "norm" is that one group is making decisions from grief and loss and some fear, the other may be making a decision from fear as well, but more likely inconvenience and some other reasons related to "oops". I guess I understand those fears and thoughts. From two sides. I've had my "defective" child, and I've had my oops, out-of-wedlock child. I can't imagine killing either of them. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 651 Registered: 7-2003 |
Believe it or not, I used to be very pro-abortion. I said things like "It's the woman's body and if she doesn't want to carry a baby in it she shouldn't have to." Since then, I have fallen in love with Jesus and His Word. I have a very different way of thinking and I am very ashamed of my old cavalier attitude regarding the sanctity of human life. Ironcially, if Roe vs. Wade had been in effect in 1969, it is highly unlikely that I would be here writing this note now. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 728 Registered: 7-2003 |
The closest I've ever come to even trying to empathize with "the other side" was when I was pregnant with my "ooops" child...and it was purely the concern for appearances more than the idea I didn't want another child... I'd have had many more if I were younger and the circumstances were "appropriate". But even as I thought "this is the position many people are in when they choose to abort", I just never could give the "option" more than passing thought. My primary thought always was my times for "choices" had passed. I guess because of my preconceived ideas against abortion, it was easier to see it as a non-option. In a society where many women are raised with it being a perfectly fine, healthy and legal option, it shouldn't be any wonder that it is so often the "easiest", short-sighted option. But I don't judge those who have had them. I've not talked to anyone who has admitted having one who has felt good about themselves or the decision afterwards. We still need to embrace these people with the loving arms of Christ and help them find the one who brings true peace and forgiveness. Sometimes in our rhetoric to condemn the procedure, it can sound very negative towards the would-be mothers and that is never my intention. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 362 Registered: 10-2004 |
That second article I linked to said, "Avista does a small number of abortions, typically when the unborn child has no chance to live outside of the mother's womb." So they are even admitting that it is not only done when the child has "no chance" to live. And that is still the sickest thing in the world to me. "No chance to live"?? Who is to say that?! A doctor is not God. I have heard of people who are alive today who doctors wanted murdered because there was "NO chance" of them surviving. And no matter what it is still murdering a human being! How is that any different than euthenasia--killing a cancer patient because they have "no chance" of surviving?? How is it any different than finding out a person has cancer and cannot survive and taking a gun and shooting them against their will, even if they don't want you to? There is no difference. It is all murdering a human being created in the image of God. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on February 17, 2005) | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 730 Registered: 7-2003 |
Good points, Jeremy. How far do we take the "no chance to live"? Reminds me of the Barbara Boxley (D - California) quote that said a baby is not a child (human...not sure) until someone decides to take it home from the hospital. It's been a couple of years since I read the statement, but it still makes me pause. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 731 Registered: 7-2003 |
BTW, There's quite a "interesting" letter to the editor in the recent Proclamation about this topic. | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2005  |
I do agree that abortion as birth control is offensive. However, my wife and I have been on the other side of this issue. We were married many years before we decided we were ready to have children, so that we were ready emotionally, educationally, and spirtitually for these blessings that we take very seriously. Six years ago my wife became pregnant for the first time. We were so excited! My wife had the baby's room ready! I made a recording of baby Jamie's heartbeat at our first dr. appt.! Then, at the second appt. we had an ultrasound, but instead of getting the first pictures of our baby, the tech said things like "oh, no" and left us alone for what seemed like forever while she went to get a doctor. Instead of telling us anything, they just referred us to a specialist the following Monday. We were so shocked and stunned! We spent the weekend in prayer and talking with our families as we waited anxiously to meet with the specialist. We had a level 2 ultrasound at the specialist's office, and the specialist, a wonderfully compasionate doctor, explained the situation. My wife was pregnant with a little girl, but she apparently had Turner's Syndrome (which was then verified by amniocentesis). Turner's by itself isn't fatal, but our girl also had many other problems, including fetal hydrops, cystic hygroma, underdeveloped lungs, and serious heart defects. We were told our baby had 6-8 weeks to live and was very unlikely to survive. The recommendation was to induce labor early to avoid any possibility of complications. We could continue the pregnancy and wait for Jamie to die, but it would be risky and my wife would have to be monitored very closely. (BTW, I feel it is ridiculous to assume that a doctor would recommend such an emotionally difficult and charged procedure if there were no better alternatives.) Through much prayer, tears, research, and talking with family, we made the decision to go ahead with inducing labor at 22 weeks. Of course, we were aware that so many people would judge us for making such a decision. (My family has an extensive medical background, so decisions like this are not made in a vacuum.) My wife's pastor talked with us before and after the event and offered much comfort. Ending the pregnancy prematurely was the most difficult decision we have ever made. We felt, and still feel, that we made the correct decision under the circumstances, and we feel that God guided us, our doctors, and our nurses. The nurses in particular were so loving, tender, and helpful! We arranged for a funeral service at my wife's church. Her pastor gave a touching sermon, my SDA pastor read scripture, and so many family and friends came. We buried Jamie in my wife's family's cemetary and selected a sweet, meaningful headstone. Through it all, we looked to God for guidance and help. The following fall, we were invited to a conference for parents who had been through similar situations. We had group therapy sessions, shared our experiences, and came away knowing that we were not alone. We also attended The Compassionate Friends meetings for a couple of years and made many lasting bonds with other parents who have lost children, especially young children, and also met a few other couples who had similar situations. So judge us if you must but please don't assume that all abortions are performed for convenience. It is so hurtful for us to read or hear others issuing blanket condemnations. BTW, the specialist also provided genetic counseling that helped us decide that we would be unlikely to again have problems, and we now have several beautiful children. In the peace and love of Jesus Christ, "Cy" and his wife | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 205 Registered: 7-2004 |
Cy (and wife), Thanks for sharing a painful part of your life. That's exactly the type of situation where I feel great compassion needs to be exercised and support given for whatever the parent(s) decide. In my opinion, I believe abortion needs to be permissable for those types of situations, but considered as murder in convenience/birth control situations. It is a tough issue. Thanks for reminding us it is a grayer issue than many people realize. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1070 Registered: 3-2004  |
Cy, Thanks for telling your story. It sounds like it was not easy to make that decision for you and your wife. I used to be pro-abortion. Now, I am for it with conditions like you and your wife had. I am truly sorry it happened to you folks. I realize I cannot impose my beliefs on others and have to leave the consequences up to God. I pray that I can be understanding and loving with the persons involved, no matter what the circunstances. My take on this is if you do not want children, do not have unprotected sex. That way there will be no fetus. But as I said I cannot impose my beliefs on anyone. Diana | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 117 Registered: 8-2004 |
Cy and wife, Thank you so much for sharing your painful experience! For reminding us that there are times when any choice we make will be hard and possibly misunderstood. I am against abortion as a form of 'birth control', but fully believe that there are times it is necessary though never a cause for joy. Yours seems like one of those times. I'm so glad you had a supportive pastor and have found and given comfort to others who are faced with this! helovesme2 | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 741 Registered: 7-2003 |
I guess I don't see that as abortion, Cy. That is certainly not the situation I envision for the typical "abortion". And early inducement is not a D & C or "partial birth" abortion. Your decision was one of those exceptional decisions out of inevitable grief, and I certainly cast no judgement. I hope there was nothing I said that would make it sound so, because as I said before, I don't want my rhethoric about the procedure to ever offend individuals in horrific circumstances as yours. I wholly support the truly "medically necessary" aspect of any procedure. The situations in my mind aren't even in the same arena. Thanks for sharing your story. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1450 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cy and wife, thank you for sharing your experience with us. What an incredible trauma and scar that must be in your lives. What you did was the safest thing you could have done. Your wife was a less risk than if you had waited. I remember once hearing a godly man ask in a class, is there any behavior or action that you can think of that would always, necessarily be a sin no matter what the cirucmstances were? I believe that God asks us to listen to Him and follow Him based upon our understanding of His will revealed in His Word. Our final decisions may never be understood by others, but when we are surrendering our situation to God for His leading and mercy, we can rest in confidence. Praise God for the children He has given you! Colleen | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2005 |
Thank you all very much for your kind words and commentary. It is difficult join in the abortion debate because of the extreme polarization that accompanies the topic, but I am comforted that you have understood and accepted our story. Our loss of Jamie was a most difficult time but God seems to work all things according to His will. We were drawn closer to Him individually and as a couple. We have been told by others that they were impressed by our giving the situation up to God instead of blaming Him. Among those who observed our experience was a good friend who later lost her daughter at childbirth. My wife was able to counsel her in her grief and share the peace she found in God. In all things we praise God, Cy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, regarding your post above on Feb 17, and abortions at LLU. Having graduated from that med school, I was surprised how liberal they were on the abortion issue. The LLU Alumni Journal actually published an article entitled "Abortion, a moral choice", I was just shocked. This was in '84. But then ther were no letters to the editor in protest of this article. My brother was a GYN resident at White Memorial, and he would tell me that they would joke about going to watch another murder when they were going to watch an abortion. The other eye-opener is the Teresa Beem letter on the Ratzlaf site. The fact that SDAs condone abortion and are officially pro-choice is another proof that they are an apostate church, and cannot be the remnant church of Bible prophecy, as they don't even regard the 6th commandment. This is why I hammered this issue on Pastor O'Ffill's website so hard, by hoping to plant a seed of doubt in peoples minds, since it was so hard to debate other issues. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1537 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, thanks for the confirmation. I know that some Adventists have truly believed that abortions are not generally done at SDA hospitals, but I've heard too many accounts of them to believe they're rare. I agree;' the Tessa Beem letter is compelling. It's on our site as well on the "Stories" page. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 74 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen, I grew up so opposed to abortion that it never occured to me that others in the church did not share my viewpoint. Reality hit a few years ago when I "heard" for the "first time" what reality was. It was a shock. Richard |
