| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 159 Registered: 10-2000 |
Whether a baby has a birth defect or not--it is NOT OKAY with God ALMIGHTY to KILL. That same logic has killed babies with spina bifida (which can be treated), with cerebral palsy, with any other birth defect a human being can have. Throughout the 20th Century and now into our 21st Century, it appears even Christians find defects a reason for killing. This goes right into people who are no longer fetuses but kids, teens, and adults with "defects." Throughout God's Word--It is NOT okay period. Who in hell gave us that right to say it's okay when your God, your Creator said it's not? Is mankind now playing God? I say yes. Has anybody on this thread stood in the gap and prayed for Terri Schindler Schiavo as her death is nearing because she has a feeding tube. That is all she is dependent on and she IS NOT IN A VEGETATIVE STATE NOR COMATOSE. I hate hearing that lie over and over and over. And if you don't believe it's a lie, TALK TO HER PARENTS. Has anybody here gone to Terrisfight.org and read? Has anybody here sent a letter to Jeb Bush in her behalf or Judge Greer or the Congress? Or how about this...........The President who claims to be "born again" and has yet to stop one abortion or murder? <~~~~~~think on this. Has anyone here gone to sites like "notdeadyet.org"????? Or are we sticking our collective heads in the sand and sticking to our "it's okay to murder as long as we all agree as to the reasons even though we know that our God says it's not okay?? mentality? Murder is murder and by any other name it is still murder and I do not feel sorry for parents that murdered their children but my heart goes out to that child that experienced murder by their parents. For any Christian that does not oppose murder you ought to be ashamed not side with the murderer. Don't get me started on this oh so holy talk of let's not murder the children except when it's convenient!! And let's be pro capital punishment to innocent disabled but not even terminal adults like Terri Schiavo....sheesh. Can no body in this so called Christiandom see the HYPOCRISY?? MURDER IS MURDER. ASK GOD AND DON'T ARGUE WITH ME ABOUT THIS ISSUE--you will lose. Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 160 Registered: 10-2000 |
AND DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT THE "MERCY KILLING" PLEA!! NOT UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO ALSO GO TO GREAT LENGTHS OF TALKING ABOUT JACK KEVORKIAN AND WHAT A WONDERFULLY MERCIFUL MAN HE WAS. AND HOW MUCH YOU FEEL AND CAN EMPATHIZE WITH HIM. Poor jack...sheesh---MY EYE! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2005 |
Denise, I can feel your passion in the posts above, but sometimes to win some ground on this issue, you have to also show compassion. There are some circumstances where abortion can be justified, such as in Cy's case stated so well above. By being so extremely prolife, the effort can be made to look ridiculous by our enemies. Even if we take a moderating approach, and get some concessions, we will still save some lives. As far as President Bush, here is a man who truly loves the Lord. His devotional reading every day is from Oswald Chambers's :My utmost for his Highest" He is not a dictator. He has faithfully sent many judicial nominations to the Senate of God fearing Judges, only to be rejected by an illegal filibuster by Democrats in the Senate. His only real influence is thru picking the judiciary. I am not advocating compromise, but there is a way to reach important goals by also showing love and compassion to the hurting world. Stan | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 163 Registered: 10-2000 |
Stan, This is a Christian website correct? If so, then you ought to know that whether or not our enemies hate the message of God, we are exhorted to teach, correct, preach, edify, exhort, comfort, rebuke and all the other "responsibilities" of a person taking on the name of "Christian." If I were to visit a site that is full of athiests, then I would not come off as being so passionate about this issue. However, I would not compromise either. Neither should any other Christian. AND I did not see ONE person come off in "Love" to say it is wrong to MURDER. Love and compassion is the ultimate way we ought to address one another. However, is it Love to show those lurking that murdering a defective child is okay? Is it Love to allow other weaker brothers and sisters in Christ to believe it is okay to murder a defective child? Tell me, what message did our enemies get from all those posts above that pitied the one who went against his own God? Everybody knows murder is wrong--even the athiests. So how is it I come onto a Christian website and learn that murdering defected children is okay? Now you tell me how that makes us look to those enemies you speak about. and pray tell.....just how do we look to the world at large when our president is attacking countries that never threatened us once? Such as Iraq. Now there's a quagmire we're in and what a hypocritical stance he's taking! This president who the entire world knows as a "CHRISTIAN" says It's okay for the USA to have WMD and kill defected babies AND adults but it's not okay for other countries? Who is the terrorist? And as far as Bush goes...he can leave office any day now and we'd be all the better for it. He's ruining our country. Open your eyes. Yes, our world is hurting and killing them doesn't take away the hurt. Neither does "enabling them--who are our weaker brothers and sisters in the faith and those who are trying to learn about our God and His Ways." Let's not put a stumbling stone in the path of those that need to know God's Truth. Not your truth nor my truth but God Almighty's Truth. What say ye? Love and compassion is NOT killing your enemies or your own children or that of others children--That's Love. Or do you dis-agree with this version of Love? If you dis-agree, please re-read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 wherein Jesus Christ Himself says to love our enemies. He also tells us to love God. AND each other (this includes the defects). God the Father said "Listen to Him!" This was a quick post but hopefully it conveyed the message that ''whoever did come to this thread, whether believer or un-believer; learned from the above posts: It's okay to kill the defective child.'' Because nobody in a response out of LOVE said anything otherwise and this thread has been going on for a few months. How many Christians have posted here prior to my post? And how many said it's not okay to kill a defected baby? Especially to another Christian. And Cy, Although I do not hate you nor your wife, I do hate the sin committed. Be comforted in knowing that we do have a God who is rich in Mercy and Forgiveness. Please read 1 John 1:9. Also know this: If you read of me committing a grievious sin and and saw everybody condoning it, I would hope and believe you do have the courage and fortitude to speak it to me boldly. My gratitude would then go to you for such a "loving act as that." Peace to your household Cy. In Christ's Name, this i pray for you and yours. Amen. Stan, you and I are obviously at odds politically but I'm sure to be the minority on this forum in that respect anyhow. I appreciate your input into my approach yet I was out of control with my passion on this issue. In the future I will attempt to do a better job at that and am also praying with everything in me that so many posts never ever go by again without one Christian speaking up about what God says about that issue. This could provoke believers and unbelievers into anger or they would feel they could engage in the same thing that God says is not okay with much boldness. Blessings to you Stan. In Christ Name, this i pray for you. Amen. denise | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 164 Registered: 10-2000 |
Stan, This is a Christian website correct? If so, then you ought to know that whether or not our enemies hate the message of God, we are exhorted to teach, correct, preach, edify, exhort, comfort, rebuke and all the other "responsibilities" of a person taking on the name of "Christian." If I were to visit a site that is full of athiests, then I would not come off as being so passionate about this issue. However, I would not compromise either. Neither should any other Christian. AND I did not see ONE person come off in "Love" to say it is wrong to MURDER. Love and compassion is the ultimate way we ought to address one another. However, is it Love to show those lurking that murdering a defective child is okay? Is it Love to allow other weaker brothers and sisters in Christ to believe it is okay to murder a defective child? Tell me, what message did our enemies get from all those posts above that pitied the one who went against his own God? Everybody knows murder is wrong--even the athiests. So how is it I come onto a Christian website and learn that murdering defected children is okay? Now you tell me how that makes us look to those enemies you speak about. and pray tell.....just how do we look to the world at large when our president is attacking countries that never threatened us once? Such as Iraq. Now there's a quagmire we're in and what a hypocritical stance he's taking! This president who the entire world knows as a "CHRISTIAN" says It's okay for the USA to have WMD and kill defected babies AND adults but it's not okay for other countries? Who is the terrorist? And as far as Bush goes...he can leave office any day now and we'd be all the better for it. He's ruining our country. Open your eyes. Yes, our world is hurting and killing them doesn't take away the hurt. Neither does "enabling them--who are our weaker brothers and sisters in the faith and those who are trying to learn about our God and His Ways." Let's not put a stumbling stone in the path of those that need to know God's Truth. Not your truth nor my truth but God Almighty's Truth. What say ye? Love and compassion is NOT killing your enemies or your own children or that of others children--That's Love. Or do you dis-agree with this version of Love? If you dis-agree, please re-read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 wherein Jesus Christ Himself says to love our enemies. He also tells us to love God. AND each other (this includes the defects). God the Father said "Listen to Him!" This was a quick post but hopefully it conveyed the message that ''whoever did come to this thread, whether believer or un-believer; learned from the above posts: It's okay to kill the defective child.'' Because nobody in a response out of LOVE said anything otherwise and this thread has been going on for a few months. How many Christians have posted here prior to my post? And how many said it's not okay to kill a defected baby? Especially to another Christian. And Cy, Although I do not hate you nor your wife, I do hate the sin committed. Be comforted in knowing that we do have a God who is rich in Mercy and Forgiveness. Please read 1 John 1:9. Also know this: If you read of me committing a grievious sin and and saw everybody condoning it, I would hope and believe you do have the courage and fortitude to speak it to me boldly. My gratitude would then go to you for such a "loving act as that." Peace to your household Cy. In Christ's Name, this i pray for you and yours. Amen. Stan, you and I are obviously at odds politically but I'm sure to be the minority on this forum in that respect anyhow. I appreciate your input into my approach yet I was out of control with my passion on this issue. In the future I will attempt to do a better job at that and am also praying with everything in me that so many posts never ever go by again without one Christian speaking up about what God says about that issue. This could provoke believers and unbelievers into anger or they would feel they could engage in the same thing that God says is not okay with much boldness. Blessings to you Stan. In Christ Name, this i pray for you. Amen. denise | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 165 Registered: 10-2000 |
As to why the double posting-- The first time it told me to wait 5 minutes. Thus I did. After 5 minutes I posted as instructed. It posted twice without my consent. Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 166 Registered: 10-2000 |
One more thing Stan, You stated in part: "There are some circumstances where abortion can be justified" Tell that to God. He dis-agrees with you and so do I. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 164 Registered: 5-2004  |
Although I understand your passion on this issue Denise and appreciate your bravery for speaking for what you feel is right, I do think that we must be careful about placing our own standards on other people. We do not stand in their shoes, and it is not our place to judge them or their actions. I always try to remember Jesus' approach to the prostitute woman. He never treated her with anger, or even judgement, but purely with love. I guess what I'm saying is that we ALL commit sins, and in God's eyes there is no greater sin except that committed against the Holy Spirit. Cy and his wife, and many other Christians are faced with this painful and difficult decision. And God has supplied mercy and grace to them to carry them through the tough places in life, as He has to each of us daily. God desires mercy and compassion from us (Hos 6:6), He alone will stand in Judgement of us and our actions/decisions...and thanks be to Him for He sees each of us without blemish in Christ Jesus. I know my daily sins are enough to separate me from God, except for Jesus' sacrifice. We all have so much to be thankful for! | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2005  |
Denise, Your attitude is exactly why my wife and I ever hesitate to bring this subject up. Your rants do little other than arouse anger. For example, your narrow view of the sixth commandment would preclude God's call to his people to enter Canaan and take out those who oppose Him. You and no other person on earth, other than a bona-fide prophet and the Holy Scriptures, can presume to tell me what God thinks or will have me do. I am a reasonable person and listen to Spirit-lead guidance, but your position leaves no room for reason. I probably shouldn't post this in my current state, but I hope I have approached this reasonably enough to go ahead and do so. I'm sure you will attack this message as well, but at least I have defended my honor and my knowledge of my compassionate Lord and Saviour. Cy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2005 |
Cy, I second what you just posted. We have to show compassion in special circumstances,and God bless you for speaking out. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 791 Registered: 7-2003  |
Denise, I understand your passion because of your own disabilities and fear you may be "next" on the proverbial chopping block (I have had the same fears expressed by others within my family regarding my own disabled child), but there are medical situations (not merely spina bifida, downs, etc) where the best option is not pleasant. Those choices are not made from hate or arrogance, but in pain. Cys' family's medical option was not from inconvenience... and it does not seem because they didn't want to have to deal with a disabled child. I'm sure there are many details that affected their decision that were not outlined in the post and we have to trust that God helped them make their very difficult decision. As others have said, such venom does not persuade others to see your perspective...and I am as against the procedure as others...yes, I've prayed for the Terri situation and hope that God can intervene, but I persuade no one towards my God to rave like a lunatic. What I see on the news from some of the protestors just isn't Christlike. Again, I understand your passion because I know that many in the disabled community feel "next on the list" so to say, but Jesus was forgiving to the woman caught in the act of adultery, and we're warned about our own logs before pointing out flecks in the eyes of our brothers. IF the decision of Cy and his wife is deemed to be sin by God, it will be the blood of Christ that forgives it just as freely as he forgives you and me of our sins. I do not personally understand why Terri's husband just won't divorce her and move on with his life, I presume there must be money involved, but that situation is not this. You can't equate the two. Please know you are loved here with the love of God, and as someone who can sound insensitive at times, I hope I have not been so here. I know you have experienced extreme abuse because of your disabilities. I cannot change that...neither does it justify abuse against others. We are all bought with a price, and we are all sinners saved by grace. My goal is to heal, not harm. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 705 Registered: 7-2003  |
What a well worded, loving, and Christ-like post Melissa. I was very blessed by both the tone and content of your post. Thank you. Chris | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 175 Registered: 10-2000 |
Cy, I'm glad you came forward. This is what was hoped for by me. My post of great passion was due to those on this thread that did not once bring to light the fact that God said Not to Murder. They didn't even say it to you in love. And THEN comfort you as a brother in Christ for having fallen into this terrible sin. It would have been one thing had they given you and your wife comfort but also told the God's Truth that it is a sin but we have a Forgiving God and then direct you to some passages for more comfort. Then for them to pray that you have understood what God said.---- Not what denise said. Rather, the impression you all are trying to give the world is that denise is out of line for telling you and other's what God Himself says about it in the Holy Bible. The very Holy Bible we all claim to believe in and that it is infact GOD'S WORD. You are a Christian man. Are you and the others trying to tell me that the Spirit of God will tell us to go in direct contradiction to the Word of God? If that is the case then I fear for all of you. AND those that read. As to the many on here thinking I'm carrying the commandment too far, I'd say you are taking liberty with the Word of God. How hard are 4 Words to understand in that 6th commandment? Here is the other thing that really gets to me: People on here talking about what others must think when they read this "Christian" thread. Well, what do you suppose those that believe in God and those that do NOT believe in God got out of the posts to you Cy? Do you or others believe that an Un-believer or Believer would come away with the Word of God regarding murder? Do you suppose an Un-believer would have thought that the Holy Bible must not be God's Word for afterall their Holy Bible says Not to Murder but these Christians don't have to go by that? Do you believe that an Un-believer would have thought it's okay to listen to what God the Holy Spirit said to you and to just ignore what God in His Word says to you when it is in contradiction? Did it cross anyones' mind that you all sent a mixed message regarding our God and His Word? These are just a few of the questions to think about. And please keep in mind that those same concerns could easily apply to Believers coming out of cults or anywhere in the world. Let none of us be a stumbling block to either Believer nor the Un-believer. That too is in the Scripture. God said Do Not Murder. Period. He did not give us an out to go against His Word by killing defective babies. And His Holy Spirit does NOT contradict HIS WORD! My speech may seem harsh but the love is in my heart out of fear for those that believe it's okay to murder. And for those that must now believe that it's normal for the Spirit of God to contradict the Word of God. Vain Philosphies will get us nowhere. In Christ. denise | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 176 Registered: 10-2000 |
Melissa, Your post is appreciated. However, please do not presume to think that I had myself on my mind in these posts. For that is not the case. This thread essentually is about MURDER. Plain and Simple. Also Melissa, please keep in mind that these posts are seen by thousands of people per day. Do we now accuse a sister in Christ of "spewing venom" because she did what nobody else did and that is bring God's Word into this scenerio? My words are not "venom." Harsh somewhat perhaps but by no means "venom" for speaking GOD'S TRUTH. Now, since you brought up my disabilities, not I, then here's a little something on that as well. When I was posting about the Disabled on another thread, most everyone either didn't respond or they suggested I was trying to persuade everyone to vote for this man or that (slander against me), I was essentially flamed for actually talking politics yet on this forum there are tons of threads that are political (nothing like do as we say not as we do mentality) they would grumble at the length of the post and they were angry that I'd dare to bring up Disability issues and some real life and death issues. I happened to be fighting for my life at that time and didn't have a single Christian who cared nor to talk to. Now there's a testimony! And remember, the world was watching and is watching now. Believers and Un-believers. I thought to myself, "Wow, some Christian family." And my heart was crushed and grief stricken for months over that. It still is and I haven't posted another post so I wouldn't offend anyone on that thread. So I see this thread and it's a life and death issue. Is there a little hypocrisy there? A little bias perhaps? A little arrogance you think? Still it didn't stop me from coming to the cause of babies lives and others too. Isn't that what a Christian does naturally? It is natural for me. Now you speak about being "Christ-like." Do you remember when Jesus threw those money changers out of the Temple? He sure didn't go in and play nicey nice, now did He? He had Righteous Anger. They were violating God's Word and His Temple. Do you know what Jesus did right after throwing everyone else out? He brought in the crippled, the lame, the outcasts, the lepers, and a whole bunch of others. This act by the way is against Jewish Law in the Torah. They (as in the crippled, blind etc. were not allowed in the Temple) Just a piece of trivia. Do you remember when Jesus pronounced woes on Jerusalem? Do you think calling people "brood of vipers," "children of satan," "hypocrits," and other such terms would go over well on this forum? Because Jesus did those things too, remember? So did other New Testament Christians in the Bible and since. This is such a crazy world. We are Christians here and some of us will sin and ask for pray to help us overcome it, some will get those warm fuzzies and pray and actually establish a conversation regarding it, some will get much Scripture and then there comes a time when someone openly tells the entire world, Christians and Un-believers that he has committed murder ..... And what to my dismay do I see? Christians Surrounding him with empathy for the trial it put him through and many prayers offered, lots of understanding and all the while the world is watching-- Yet not one Christian openly tells him that this murder that he committed is against God's Word. Instead everyone forgot God's Word in their vocabulary and so hence the world sees no problem either and is trying to understand our God and what His Word says. Are we showing them the complete Truth? Are we speaking it so they know NOT to do this either? No. But the baby is DEAD. And you folks are Philosophy-Full of reasons why it was the right thing to do. And what is that you may ask? Because I'm sure the world is asking as well. The "Philosophy is that it's okay to MURDER. And NOT JUST MURDER but MURDER THE BABY BECAUSE WHY YOU SAY????." BECAUSE it is defective. Wow, yeppers, that's a do no harm if you ask me. You stated at the end of your post: "My goal is to heal, not harm." The doing no harm Melissa is telling the guilty people that they are sinning and tell them it's God's Words, not yours. It is harmful to others to remain silent or apathetic or even hardened to this crime against God. If we are only beholden to play warm and fuzzies then what a bunch of hypocrital people! Nobody feels warm and fuzzy all the time--Not even Christians. Are we to pretend that we feel warm and fuzzy??? Now that would be hypocritical. I love you in Christ as well Melissa but I cannot believe nor will I accept what was witnessed by the world regarding murdering a defected baby. Who is insentitive here? The justifying, the philosophies of men, the tolerance of such an act on a Christian forum made me sick. Call me what you will, but the Word of God is not a lie and I will not stand by and watch a mockery made of God's Word to us as His children. Thank you for praying for Terri Schiavo. My prayers go up for all the babies of the world, the down-trodden, the elderly, the disabled and the outcasts. In this world, many prayers are needed for this group above as even though some are born again, they are suffering and yes, even being killed for being who they are. Some are even being killed and persecuted in this world for standing on the Word of God. In Christ. denise | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1564 Registered: 12-2003  |
I will again refer to a really provocative question I heard asked once by a committed Christ-follower--is there any action which, under all possible circumstances, is ALWAYS sin? I have to confess that I can think of no action which is ALWAYS sin under any circumstance. Denise, while I completely understand your feelings and respect your opinion, it is not ours to say that Cy (or anyone else) fell into sin because of the decision he and his wife made. I have been in situations in my life in which there were NO good options. Whatever I chose would require some sort of undeserved pain to others besides and including myself. Of course God's Spirit does not contradict the word of God. But the Word of God does not explain every nuance of life application. That fact is why we have the Holy Spirit--He gives us God's wisdom and discernment for our situations. Just as there is no action which is sinful under every condition, there is likewise no decision which is outside God's redemption. We are not only inherently flawed, but our circumstances are colored by sin over which we have no control. I believe that there are times when God's will for us can appear to outsiders to be "sinful". For example, I know a person who has severed ties with a seriously abusive parent, but few people know or believe that parent is truly able to be abusive; their public presentation is entirely deceptive. A friend who knew some but not the details of the circumstances said to the person, "But you HAVE to love him/her; he/she is your PARENT!" The all-but-severed relationship is the healthiest and most redemptive way this person could relate to the abusive parent. Yet people outside the circumstances could easily misunderstand and assign charges of selfishness, vindictiveness, and unfairness to the person involved. Denise, as frightening as it sometimes is when we consider long-term possibilities and implications, we absolutely must trust the integrity and honesty of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ when they share with us the eternal burden of decisions they made which had no clearly better alternatives. It is not our place to decide Cy and his wife must repent of their decision. They faced a situation in which any decision was dangerous and pain-filled, and they made their decision before God, begging for His wisdom and grace. We must let God be God and praise Him for his eternal love and His redemption of our deepest pain. I know you understand that redemption. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 418 Registered: 10-2004  |
Colleen, I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say, "I have to confess that I can think of no action which is ALWAYS sin under any circumstance." Aren't the following things always sin? Blaspheming God, worshipping other gods/idols, stealing, murder, and other things which I don't know if you consider actions such as coveting, lusting, hating anyone, etc. These are just a few I've thought of right now, I could probably mention more. Am I misunderstanding you, or do you disagree with what I said above? If so, please explain how those things wouldn't be sin under certain circumstances. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1565 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, first of all, I wasn't even remotely referring to mental "actions". "Actions", in my understanding, are physical acts. Motives and such are not things I classify as "actions". Second, I was referring specifically to physical acts without the nuances of labels. Of course murder is always wrong--but is it always sin to "kill"? Of course stealing is always wrong--but was it a sin for the disciples to appropriate the young donkey for Jesus to ride into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday? Of course bearing false witness is always wrong--but was it a sin for the Ten Booms to hide Jews during the Holocaust? I'm not trying to excuse sin, Jeremy--I'm just asking if there is any physical act that, no matter WHAT the circumstances is ALWAYS wrong. Now, when actions are perverted by human twistedness, then we can attach labels to those actions that make them very different from circumstance to circumstance. Israel killing the enemy when God ordered them to do so is completely different from murder--yet the ACTION is the same. My point is, simply, that physical actions cannot be classified as always evil in themselves. It is when we attach integrity or non-integrity to those actions that we get sin or not sin. Sins of the heart are ALWAYS sins--and they make physical actions sins as well. Sorry I didn't make myself clear in the beginning. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 420 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, I realize you're not trying to excuse sin, and I agree with you somewhat, but I guess I see things a little bit differently. I do agree that killing is different than murder. But, for example, I don't see the young donkey example as the same "physical action" as stealing. In that case Jesus said, "If anyone says to you, 'Why are you doing this?' you say, 'The Lord has need of it'; and immediately he will send it back here." "They spoke to them just as Jesus had told them, and they gave them permission." (Mark 11:3, 6 NASB.) So they did have permission. And there are certain outward "actions" that I can't think of any circumstance where they wouldn't be sin--such as blaspheming God. I suppose if you're defining certain "acts" very broadly then maybe we don't disagree with each other!  I mean if you're saying that speaking is not always sin, but blaspheming God is, and that sex is not always sin but adultery is, etc., then of course I would agree with you. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1566 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Jeremy--that's what I'm saying. Blaspheming, in my opinion, is not merely speaking, either. It is a heart sin--out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh. As far as the colt goes, I'm not calling it "stealing". But Jesus did instruct them to take the colt and to give an answer IF anyone asked them what they were doing. He did not instruct them to ask first. We would consider that to be taking something that did not belong to us...but Jesus clearly was showing His sovereignty over the situation and the circumstances. In the specific case under discussion in this thread, I'm not convinced we can ALWAYS call the premature termination of a pregnancy "murder". I think all of you know that I am against abortion, but in difficult cases such as Cy's, I don't believe we can call that murder. His own agonizing before God and subjecting the situation to His will covers the circumstances with surrender and God's grace, and we are not able to call the ACT a murder. We were not involved in that situation or the decision, and I do not believe that the act alone justifies our labeling it "murder". I hope this makes sense. I am not a relativist--but I also see that we get into trouble by saying a physical act alone (and I do mean that in a broad, not specific, sense) is always enough for us to condemn it. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 32 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, I appreciate your post above. I was a friend of the late Dr Walter Martin, the real Bible Answer Man, instead of this pretender Hank Hanegraff, who really took advantage of Mrs Martin and took control of CRI. But Walter used to say that in circumstances such as rape, incest, and the actual life of the mother(not the health}, that in that case abortion was an act of self defense. These are not easy issues, but we can all agree on this thread that allowing abortion on demand, such as what goes on at Washington Adventist hospital, as quoted by Tessa Beem from George Reid, that it has become an abortion mill, is flat out wrong. Stan |
