| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1075 Registered: 3-2004  |
There are many angels mentioned in Revelation so why do the SDA pick on the 3 angels mentioned in Rev 14?? Each of the angels mentioned in Revelation has a special duty or message, so why pick on these 3?? After reading Revelation last year I wondered about that and now that I am taking a class about Revelation I was wondering again. Diana | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2005 |
Tell us everything you learn in your class, F-Lady. Speaking of which . . . Yesterday a theologian from Andrews lectured on the topic: Finding the Sanctuary in Revelation." Here was the text proving the Investigative Judgment: Revelation 6:9-11. Check it out! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 368 Registered: 10-2004  |
I don't know--except that's what Ellen did, and she is their "continuing and authoritative source of truth"! But look at the blasphemy of Ellen regarding Revelation 10:
This is referring to the "mighty angel" in Revelation 10 which stood on the sea and on the land. Revelation 10:1 (KJV) says: "And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven..." The Greek word for "another" here means "another of the same kind." It's saying "another of the same kind of mighty angel"--and the mighty ("strong," same Greek word ischuros) angel previously talked about in Revelation 5:2 is definitely NOT Jesus. It says, "And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." (Revelation 5:2-3 KJV.) This angel is obviously not Jesus as Jesus is the one who WAS found able to open the book! This is a mere created being--an angel. Therefore, "another of the same kind" of angel in Revelation 10:1 cannot be Jesus. Ellen is just blaspheming the Lord God Almighty Jesus Christ once again. Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1076 Registered: 3-2004 |
I just read Rev 6:9-11 v9. When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. v 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" v. 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. v 9-11 tells me there are souls in heaven waiting for God to avenge them. There goes the dead have no souls or is this an allegory?? Now I am being sarcastic. Sorry. Maybe they meant Rev 6:12,13 v 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, v 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. v 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. I was thinking about v 12-14 also being a part of the SDA proof texts about the ends times. I see nothing about a judgement in the context of these texts. How confusing!!!!! Just give me Jesus. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 133 Registered: 7-2004 |
Revelation 6:9-11 (NIV) says: When he (The Lamb) opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was complete." ---------- This is talking about all of those down through history who have been slain because of their faith. This isn't talking about ALL of the righteous dead. If this proves IJ it would have to include all of the righteous dead from Adam until the present, right? These are obviously martyrs. By the way, since they are dead, how can they be talking to Jesus anyway? They are "sleeping" until Jesus comes. I guess they can talk in their sleep. This text actually proves that there is a conscious component that goes somewhere at the time of death. In Revelation that place is "under the altar." Jeremy, that business about Jesus being Michael the Archangel is so heretical that it's scary. I had one preacher spend hours trying to convince me that because he is the chief archangel, he can still be Jesus, because we have Jesus leading all of the angels when he returns to earth at his second coming. Jesus is the Angel leader--Archangel. I told him that in Thessalonians it states that Jesus returns to earth leading the saints. Angels aren't saints, and saints aren't angels. We never did come to a meeting of the minds. Belva | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1540 Registered: 11-2002 |
Referring to what Jeremy wrote up above it all gets back to the SDA teaching that Jesus and Michael are one and the same. As for how come the SDA's just focus on those three angels this is how I understand it. The third of those angels according to SDA teaching says that in the last days everyone in true Christianity will become SDA and have the seal of God which is keeping the weekly Sabbath. These faithful will flee to the mountains while everyone else is partying and having a good time with the numbers 666 tatooed on their foreheads and their hands. Then Jesus will come on a big black cloud and judgement will begin. It even gets moire weird after this. It never made sense to me. It's not in the Bible at all. And, the older I get and the more my SDA loved ones and those SDA's I come into contact with who aren't loved ones try to explain this to me the more less sense it makes. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 369 Registered: 10-2004 |
"The third of those angels according to SDA teaching says..." But, as you alluded to, the thing is, the angel doesn't say those things! It's so crazy--all one has to do is look it up in Revelation 14 and see for themselves what the angel says. And he doesn't say anything about SDAs, Sabbath, Sunday-keeping, or the health message (which EGW said was part of the third angel's message!!!). All one has to do is look in the Bible and see what the angel's message is. It does quote it.  I just don't get the SDAs nonsense with the three angel's messages--aren't they just what the Bible quotes and says they are??? BTW, what you will find if you do look it up, is that the third angel's message is all about eternal hellfire--hmmm. Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1078 Registered: 3-2004 |
The angel said in a loud voice things about the mark of the beast and what will hapeen to those who have eternal hellfire. I am condensing what is said, but, in essence that is what it is. I see nothing about the IJ there. Maybe it is my poor vision and senior brain that is not comprehending. Nah, It couldn't be that. I should not put down what God created like that. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 320 Registered: 4-2000  |
Good observation, Jeremy, about Rev. 14. Indeed, the third angel's message is all about eternal hellfire--the very message that Adventists reject. Dennnis Fischer | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 316 Registered: 6-2004 |
I've noticed that SDA's put a lot of emphasis on angels. I guess that's no surprise as they try to make people believe that Jesus is actually Michael the archangel. Of course, that's in line with what the JW's believe. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 734 Registered: 7-2003  |
Isn't that in line with the continuing need to minimize Christ, making him merely an example, but somehow "lesser" God than the father? | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 317 Registered: 6-2004 |
Of course it is. Their take on the trinity is really unbibilical. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1444 Registered: 12-2003  |
I've been amazed to discover (with some help from Jeremy--thanks, Jeremy!) how anti-trinitarian the church still is, and how long it took the church to even make a public statement endorsing the Trinity. The first time the church included the Trinity in its statement of doctrinal beliefs was 1946 at the GC session. Even during their trinitarian era, they have not really had a consensus about exactly WHAT the Trinity is. Jesus remains lesser, and it's hard to explain exactly what that means. From living in the church for over 40 years, though, I KNOW that regardless of what they say publicly, Adventists do not teach their children to love Jesus as their all-powerful, sovereign Lord and Savior. It's definitely part of the ethos to keep Jesus somehow "less than", and I'm coming to believe that part of the fascination of the part of many theologians is simply the intellectual "high" they get from pondering and arguing the issue of the Trinity from a viewpoint that does not include being (in many cases) born again. It's a head trip, to borrow a phrase from my (ancient) youth. Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 488 Registered: 1-2003 |
This is very apparent. I had a lightbulb moment on CARM. We were discussing the thief on the cross and our old friend Truthseeker was stating that punctuation was a man-made addition to the bible and cannot be trusted. We were speaking of the "Today you will be with me in Paradise." statement made by Jesus to the Thief on the Cross. Anyway...the SDA contend he couldn't possibly mean "today"..."how do we know the thief actually died that day?", etc. And ChrisCarol said, "Because Jesus is God!" The lightbulb went off...it all has to do with how the SDA percieve the nature of Christ. As God He could absolutely make that happen for the thief, that very day! I never thought of it before! | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 320 Registered: 6-2004 |
The whole Jesus/Michael angel theory is totally crazy. The Bible says not to let the worship of angels disqualify you. If Jesus is Michael as the SDA teaches, then they just disqualified themselves. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1455 Registered: 12-2003 |
PHeeki, great point--and it dovetails with your point, Pw. Adventism absolutely devalues JEsus and minimizes His divinity. Ellen made statements that identified Jesus as an angel in eons past--and Adventism has never really recovered from its nontrinitarian roots. Even today SDA theologians disagree about the nature of the Trinity. Some are quite reactionary and are moving back to the original roots, others are more modern and, while they don't know exactly what to make of the Trinity, they don't believe the traditional understanding is right, either. Adventism just isn't convinced of Jesus' supermacy and sovereign Lordship. No wonder there's no clarity on the gospel, the atonement, the assurance of salvation, or even the eternal nature of God's justice. Whenever we reduce God to a humanly explainable formula, we have stopped worshiping the One True God. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1559 Registered: 11-2002 |
The SDA and the JW come from the same histoiry, the Millerite Movement. The ones who later became the SDA and the ones who later became the JW did not agree on the date that Jesus was to come back to earth. Both were wrong and wouldn't admit their error. The JW say He came invisibly in 1914 and the SDA came up with the IJ. Both have that Jesus is Michael spin and although the JW denies the Trinity totally the SDA's put a non-traditionally Christian understanding to the Trinity. Both groups undermine Jesus as Lord and Savior. The JW's have oodles of rules and the SDA's have oodles of rules. The rules are different but the controling aspect of the organizatiuon remsains the same. Both groups teach it and only it is the one true last day organization that has all truth from God. The SDA's refer to their fallen away members as Babalyon and the JW's refer to theirs as apostates. Both teach soul sleep and both have a weird understanding on life everlasting. It is very interesting to study the common history of the JW and the SDA. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 322 Registered: 6-2004 |
The SDA goes out on a limb about the verse in Revelation speaking about the voice of the archangel raising the dead. They automatically think that is Jesus, because only he raises the dead. Another White Lie. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 74 Registered: 7-2000  |
I Thess. 4:16 says "The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. . ." If one is going to claim that this verse means Jesus = archangel, then they must, to be consistent, based on the parallelism of the verse, also claim that Jesus = shout and Jesus = trumpet. "With" does not mean "equals!" | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1466 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great point, Bob! It's so satisfying to my English teacher-heart when understanding grammar is a key to understanding truth!! Colleen |
