| Author | Message | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 241 Registered: 9-2004 |
Well, I know a few of you said that you couldn't understand cultural adventists, but...... I want you guys to surmise, guess, contemplate, think why you there are adventists that ignore EGW writings. What do you suppose their thinking/logic and intentions are? (I want to know b/c well, you know why! ) : ) (The insight you all have into the mind is not only fascinating but it prepares me and makes me well-armed!) Thanks! Tracey | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 27 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, To follow up on my comments above about your expertise in EGW( I checked out the link you gave above.) Have you checked out the forum presentation by Dr Frederick Hoyt, where he found documentation that EGW claimed over 100 personal visits--not visions-- but personal visits from Christ Himself, which i find most incredible. These visitations were associated with phenomenom that I have seen described in occultic references. I know you have seen the website www.truthorfables.com. Scroll down to failed visions of EGW, to the entry 100 visits from Christ, and read the paper he presented. I would like your opinion of what he presented, since you are the resident expert on EGW and occult phenomenom. Thanks, Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1553 Registered: 12-2003  |
Tracey, from my experience I believe that SDAs who discount Ellen do so because A) she's boring to read and they know that technically their doctrines should be in the Bible alone; and B) they know that she said things they can't observe, i.e. her counsel against bicycles, baking soda, novels, etc. It's easier just to ignore her and grant her credit for having been useful to the church in its early years. They actually believe they can dismiss her to the dark recesses of their minds without actually giving her up. They're still tightly bound to her, of course, by they've deceived themselves into thinking that they're not--that it doesn't matter. Prais God for guidng us to Himself! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1554 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oops--that would be "praise God for guiding us to Himself!" | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 190 Registered: 7-2004 |
Tracey, I also believe that they truly are "cultural" in every way. They have grown up hearing that SDA is the "remnant church" and that it has "the truth" and there are a whole bag of phrases like that that are hypnotically drilled into a person from babyhood when you are raised in the SDA church. Like Colleen said, they have probably read the red books and found them either without application to their personal lives, or dreadfully dull, or both. The only really uplifting parts of EGW's books are the parts she copied. You can pretty much pick out the stuff she wrote on her own. It's crammed with moralizing and judgmentalizing. These people stay because it's all they have ever known. I'm getting out of a marriage I should have left 20 years ago, but I stayed "for the children," "because I said I would before God," and the worst reason of all, "because it's easier to stay with what you know, even if it's awful, than it is to jump off into the unknown." They have family, and a huge network of friends and family. If they are true SDA's that means all of their friends are SDA's, they went to school with other SDA's, maybe even made their professional lives in working for the church... It's a huge network. If you leave it you find youself to be terribly alone and without a roadmap. It takes something bigger to get you to give it up. We have all found out that Jesus is bigger. I'm praying for you and for C. I pray that he will fall in love with Jesus, the real Jesus, not the smaller, condensed version he grew up with. Belva | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 162 Registered: 5-2004  |
Tracey, After reading "Seeking a Sanctuary" (Bull & Lockhart) I have a much better understanding of the system I grew up in. Adventism created a world that functions within the world. Somewhat similar to Jews or Muslims or any other restrictive religion or close knit ethnic group. Growing up in Adventism, you're educated from infant on about what to believe and how you should live. The indoctrination begins so early that you don't even think to question it in most cases, or if you do, you don't understand why you're not "getting it". Fast forward until you're old enough to be living your own life, and you may or may not have rebelled from the system a bit, and yet it still is your family. SDA's are proud of the fact that they can go anywhere in the world, and know somebody. You can experience that even here a bit, as those of us who grew up in the system, compare notes and the ties we have in common. This is a strong aspect of the church that helps to promote the loyalty to the system. So what you end up with is Adventists who haven't taken the time to really search for God, but feel that they're in the right place because they were taught that it was. And they don't want to rock the boat or leave their comfort zone. Because they know, that to question the system brings the rejection from the system...and the family they know. There's much more to it, but that is some of the cultural ties that Adventists can feel. It's like trying to extract yourself from the Mob.  Especially for those who come from historic roots. | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 133 Registered: 2-2003 |
One thing I observed that emphasizes the ties Adventists have is that SS always starts at 9:30. At least that's been my experience in other SDA churches I've attended. So I assume that you could go anywhere in the world and if you're at the church at 9:30 you're in time for SS | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1561 Registered: 12-2003 |
Belva, I am so sorry about the upheaval in your life right now. I know how jarring it is to experience divorce. Going through mine many years ago helped prepare me to find and know Jesus. You know Him now; He will not waste this experience in your life, and as you submit it and all the implications to Him, He will created something wonderful and strong in the place where you were broken. Esther, I love your comparison to extracting oneself from the Mob. I know that was a bit lighthearted, but it really is a helpful metaphor. It's an apt comparison although the details are different. Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 305 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well, the mob usually executes the one who leaves. SDAism teaches that God will do the same to the one who leaves the "mob" of the remnant church. An apt analogy indeed. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 118 Registered: 7-2000  |
I was reminded again this week of the religious arrogance implicit in Adventist beliefs. An elderly SDA acquaintance of mine, in an email, commented that even if she dies, she expects to see Jesus return, because "we have been told [by EGW] that those who 'die in the Third Angel's Message' will be raised in a special resurrection to watch the return of Christ the second time. They are steeped in being "better than" others, including other Christians. I find it indescribably sad. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 419 Registered: 10-2004  |
Stan, yes I have seen that article, and yes, I find it incredible (and creepy!). I don't know whether or not you've seen Sydney Cleveland's book White Washed, but he has a whole chapter on Ellen's occultic experiences. I have not read all the details (and I don't know if I want to, frankly!), but he gives a couple of accounts about Ellen having that same experience other times--with light, etc., and one of the accounts also mentions a smell of roses. He says that these are characteristics of spiritualistic visions and psychic phenomena. BTW, EGW made reference again to the same vision, at a different meeting in April 1901. She said:
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| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 33 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Thanks for that response. That is really creepy as you say. I have a hard time saying that she was truly demon influenced, vs whether it was her mental illness, and that the SDA leadership just used her. I knew Walter Martin personally and he refused to call her a false prophet, but I can't figure out why. However, I met Dr Robert Morey who said he had lunch with Martin 1 week before he died, and he said Martin was about to change his mind about labeling SDA a cult. Stan | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 707 Registered: 7-2003  |
If I remember correctly, Martin explains in his appendix on Adventism in Kingdom of the cults why he did not label EGW a false prophet. He believed the definition of a false prophet was one who was actively attempting to lead people away from the one true God (a prophet of Bael would be an example). He argues that EGW was not actively trying to lead people away from God, even though she was wrong on many issues. He further stated that he thought EGW was actually a true Believer in Christ, but was just very misguided. If memory serves, Martin did not believe EGW was a prophet of any sort, true or false, but did believe she was a real Christian. I have doubts about this assessment given the great bondage, pain, suffering, and division her writings have caused. I tend to think her writings are truly inspired, jut not by the Lord. Chris | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 422 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow, I didn't know Walter Martin believed/said all that! Did he say that Joseph Smith was a false prophet? I don't think that just a crazy woman could come up with such an intricate cult system that works sooo "well"! Also, based on things she said, etc., I think she definitely knew what she was doing (that she was a fraud, etc.), and I don't think she was a Christian. Since I do believe she is a false prophet and a false teacher, I think 2 Peter 2 tells us where she is: "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. ...then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment," (2 Peter 2:1, 9 NASB.) Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 34 Registered: 3-2005 |
Walter was a very charitable individual, and he would bend over backwards to give people the benefit of the doubt. I am not sure, though, he knew about some of the later info that you, Jeremy, and Cleveland have researched, and this would have likely changed his mind, as it was starting to sink in before his untimely death. Walter was a spiritual mentor of mine during the time I was processing out of SDA, and I would bring him all kinds of articles trying to convince him that he should reconsider his position, because of the emotional trauma that this organization has caused to so many people. Stan | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2004 |
I'm a little slow in catching up on this thread, so I apologize for returning to a previously discussed topic. I've read an awful lot on FAF recently regarding "cultural Adventists." I think that some of us are little too hard on those who fit this description. I was most definitely a cultural Adventist. I would hazard a guess that others who post on this site were also cultural Adventists. I believe it is true that historic Adventists are more faithful to the teachings of the SDA church and the writings of Ellen White than are cultural Adventists. However, I know from first-hand experience how very painful it is to leave. I believe that it took me YEARS to leave and, during many of those years, I was a cultural Adventist. Yet, I believe the timing was divine and that, during my years as a cultural Adventist, I was asking questions, I was gathering information, and Christ was laying a foundation upon which I eventually had the courage to step out in faith. Some cultural Adventists have the potential to become some of the most spiritual and God-focused former Adventists. Let's not give up on them too easily! tdf | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 709 Registered: 7-2003 |
TDF, to clarify comments I've made regarding cultural SDAs: I've never intentionally suggested that leaving is any less painful for cultural SDAs or that they have any less potential than any other type of Adventist. I have never thought either one of these things either. My wife was a purely cultural Adventist and I know it was just as painful for her to transition and I know she has just as much potential as any other person who has transitioned. What I have said, is that I, personally, have never understood cultural Adventism. I tend to be an extremist (okay, "tend" is the wrong word, I'm a full bore extremist). If I'm going to do something I'm going to do it all the way, forget moderation (it's an illness). :-) So my SDA experience consisted of trying to live up to strict health requirements and other behavioral expectations dictated by EGW, then when I failed (and got depressed) I would live like a complete hedonistic heathen until I decided to clean myself up again. It was a truly terrible cycle. My wife on the other hand always ate meat, didn't get too terribly legalistic about Sabbath, didn't care one way or another about EGW, but I know Adventism still affected her in profoundly negative ways. Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 40 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, I think I see your point about how could such a deceptive theological system be cooked up by a lady with mental illness. I know a lot of people want to some how give her the benefit of the doubt, and somehow blame it on James White, and the other early pioneers, yet they probably were not smart enough to cook up this system that as you say works so well either, so, therefore, it must have been a deceptive spirit guide that led her. This is starting to seem more plausible in light of the evidence you presented. Something to consider anyway, but it is still difficult and something that I never thought about until the last 18 months, since I heard that Forum presentation I referred to above. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 428 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, Yes, I think that some of the most compelling evidence is all of the quotes from her about her "guide," her "Instructor" (she would use a capital "I"), the "same handsome young man" she claimed visited her for decades, etc. I think it was my dad who, a little over a year ago, found a quote (I think from the cd-rom but maybe a web site) where Ellen's angel told her that he was the one who had sustained her all these years, or something to that effect. I tried searching for the quote recently but could not find it. But it was amazing. Here are a couple of interesting quotes from EGW:
Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1570 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Tdf, many cultural Adventists are asking questions and slowly gaining insight. I believe that there is a "leak in the dam", so to speak, and an increasingly heavy stream of Adventists is discovering Jesus and the truth about Adventism and is beginning to process out. I believe, though, that many cultural Adventists are quite content, and because they think they don't believe in the cultic aspects of the religion, they tend to be less compelled by the facts when they hear them. Of course, many are compelled; I do think it comes down to a basic desire for truth. Those who really want to know the truth will find it; those who do not have that commitment will not see it as easily. Colleen |
