| Author | Message | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 365 Registered: 7-2004 |
This week in BSF we started studying Ephesians. It is very clear in Ephesians (as well as other places in the Bible) that God had Christ "choose us" (vs. 4,5,11). I talked with a SDA about joining BSF with me and her response is that she went to BSF during the study of Romans and quit when they started talking about predestination. I remember, as a SDA student, a little bit about predestination but I don't remember what I was taught to believe and not to believe. What was I taught? It is very plain to me that God chose me before the world was created to be His adopted child. What do I say when a SDA says they can't do a Bible study because it "pushes" predestination? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 697 Registered: 7-2003  |
I find the SDA attitude on predestination interesting. In general, it seems as if SDAs just choose to deny predestination in total without grappling with any of the texts that actually use the word. I've actually heard SDAs say things like, "I don't believe in predestination". This is a pretty amazing statement and it's not an acceptable approach because the Bible clearly says that we are, in fact, predestined. So it could rightfully be said that all Bible-believing Christians believe in predestination. The only question is: upon what is our predestination predicated on? Are we predestined because of God's foreknowledge that we would choose Christ or are we predestined because of God's sovereign choice to select a limited elect? The answer is an ongoing debate in the Church, but all sides agree that we are predestined. Chris | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 366 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, Have you ever heard an SDA explain why they don't believe in predestination? I understand the differences in the different ways to look at predestination (and that is acceptable as it is one of those debates that is not a salvation issue) but why would someone read "Before the world was created, God had Christ choose us to live with Him and to be His holy and innocent and loving people." (Eph. 1:4 CEV) and quit a Bible study because of it? I am asking because I did not ask this person who said this to me and we are not aquainted well enough for me to call her up long distance and ask for clarification and then debate. I am looking for insight as to why a SDA would even make this comment when it is clear that we are choosen by God. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 778 Registered: 7-2003  |
Dd, I know B is adamant that predestination cannot mean God selected some, but not others, or that we are not 100% responsible for our own salvation choice. I don't know what you were taught specifically, but I know we started studying ephesians in January ... we are at the end of chapter 2 now. When we went through the passages that talked about predestination, the pastor said basically what Chris has said. You can't look at the passages of free will and ignore those of predestination, and you cannot choose predestination over those of freewill. Reality is they are both there and comprehending the tension between those two realitiies is something many educated theologians have struggled with through the years. He did not resolve the mystery for us other than to address what Paul said in this passage in relationship to the whole of Ephesians. From conversations with B, he'd rather think there is a translation error than to think we were compelled to seek God for any reason than our own complete free will. I don't know how you can deny that scripture says we are predestined...but what that means is debated -- hotly sometimes. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 367 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks, Melissa. It would make sense that the reasoning would be tied in some way to SDA thinking of free will and salvation by works. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 779 Registered: 7-2003 |
To answer your question to Chris from B's perspective, it seems to be part of the whole teaching that you are responsible for every move you make and if you say God has predestined some, that means that you can do all the "right" things and still not be saved because you weren't "predestined" (so you can keep the 10 Cs and still not make it???). When I explained how I understood the concept, he could accept that, but was absolutely opposed to the lack of free will that seems understood in the term 'predestination'. I got the idea it was because it conflicted with other sda doctrines and teachings...especially if you have to keep prayed up for the IJ.....but his is the only perspective I've heard and it's not very detailed at that. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 780 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dd, we really must quit posting at the same time....  | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2005 |
This is a great discussion. In my journey out of SDA, I have come from very Arminian to a Calvinist. I would strongly recommend reading R.C. Sproul's book, Chosen By God, and Dr Robert Morey's book Studies in the Atonement. Christians will always debate this and it is very stimulating. Stan | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 698 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dd, no, I never have heard a SDA explain predestination. That's exactly what I was saying in my last post. They seem to just outright reject ANY notion of predestination, even the word itself. They don't interact with the applicable texts, they just reject it. It's a knee jerk reaction. Rather than trying to grapple with the Biblical data, they simply say, "I don't believe that". Clearly SDAs are strongly Armenian, you might even say Pelegian, hence their strong reaction to the word "predestination", but intellectually honest Armenians still need to grapple with the Biblical texts that use the word. For the most part it appears to me that SDAs essentially ignore the topic and have never developed any full-fledged systematic theology dealing with the topic. Perhaps someone like Dennis with a SDA theology degree could tell us what is taught in SDA seminaries. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1538 Registered: 12-2003  |
Richard Rice (an SDA theologian at Loma Linda) wrote a book, The Openness of God, that "explains" that God "limits" his foreknowledge so that we can retain free choice. In other words, we "can't" be free to have choice if God knows beforehand what we'll do. So, instead of grappling with the Biblical fact of predestination, Adventists limit God. I still like what Grudem says in his Systematic theology. He says both our choice and predestination are taught in the Bible; we cannot embrace one and not the other without ignoring one half of the Biblical teaching about the issue. Although from our persepctive we cannot completely expalin how both are true, from God's persepctive, both are true. I think of it as a paradox that, because we're limited to three dimensions, we cannot completely fathom. If we could see all and know all, however, they would make sense together. What we do know from the Bible are these two things: God predestines us, and we also make choices which have eternal consequences. So, while God elects and predestines, still we must fulfill Christ's command to make disciples, and we also must choose our response to Jesus. I find that the tension between the two is far less bothersome the more I study the Bile and perceive God's sovereignty. His sovereignty makes me feel secure; He, not I, has the last word and the final responsibility for my care and protection and growth and safety. How it all works, I don't know, but He works all together for good for those who love Him. Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 700 Registered: 7-2003 |
I've read both Sproul's book and Grudem's systmatic theology. Admittedly they present a very strong case for full 5 point Calvanism. You know it's not the predestination to salvation that gives me pause, it's the predestination to damnation that I have a hard time reconciling to. Under 5 point Calvinism (including the interpretations by Sproul and Grudem) there are some who God chose before time to experience His wrath in order to bring glory to Himself. They were created for the purpose of retrobation according to the will of God. God does NOT call these people. Christ did NOT die for these people and never intended to die for them. The work of the antonement is not available or open to them in anyway (the "L" in the Calvanistic TULIP - Limited Atonement). They were created for Hell. I have a hard time with this point of Calvanism. I have an easier time with Norman Geisler's brand of Calvanism, what he calls "moderate Calvanism". Chris | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 300 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well, for one thing, there certainly is no place for an Investigative Judgement in a world with predestination. Predestination makes an Investigative Judgement academic and entirely unnecessary. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1641 Registered: 11-2002 |
I am by no means a Bibical scholar. However, I understand it this way-God chooses each of us for eternal life. We are all upon our first spark of life chosen by God. After that if we reject the leading of the Holy Spirit we're headedfor the lake of fire (I just crack up laughing every time I get to use that term! To normal people I say "hell". I use the 'lake of fire' term on here tongue in cheek, just a stab at tacky SDA humor on my part.) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 211 Registered: 7-2004  |
My first exposure to Sproul was Faith Alone. I couldn't put it down, I thought it was outstanding. I just received my Amazon order with his book Grace Unknown, which is a work on Reformed theology. I'm certainly not convinced on Calvinism, but I find it good reading to balance years of Arminianism. I don't know if the seminary is different, but I know from my undergrad theology studies at AU that we learned next to nothing about the different views and approaches to Scriptures found in the main Protestant divisions. Which is sort of funny since SDAs consider themselves heirs and completors of these teachings. So as I was going through the process of leaving SDAism I studied Scripture plenty, but had no idea to what churches my new beliefs might be similar. Recently, and probably in response to that, I have found that I really enjoy Zondervan's Counterpoints series. Several different authors present their views and respond to each others' presentations. It provides a reasonably quick way to understand more about the variety of answers that have been given within Protestantism. I started with Five Views on Law and Gospel. Found that my own conclusions were most similar to the modified Lutheran view presented by Douglas Moo. Although I learned plenty from other sections as well. Next I read Five Views on Sanctification. Here I found that I agreed with a few points from several of the authors, but couldn't say that I mostly agreed with any. Although I did learn that my view of "sin" was closer to Calvanism than it was to the Wesleyan view. My recent Amazon order included Four Views on Eternal Security and Three Views on the Millenium and beyond. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, You mention Richard Rice above. He has been a leader in the openness of God heresy, and this is well documented in Robert Morey's "Battle of the Gods". Dr Morey is great at illustrating that Arminianism leads to this kind of reasoning, as it is a man centered theology, whereas Calvinism is God centered with God getting all the glory. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 406 Registered: 10-2004  |
The book Creating God in the Image of Man? by Norman L. Geisler also discusses the "open view" and talks about Richard Rice. I have liberal SDA relatives who are friends of Richard Rice and his family, and they believe his heresy. Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 332 Registered: 4-2000  |
There is not such a thing as a NEUTRAL free will. We cannot choose what we do not desire. We are born in rebellion against God. We lack the moral ability to come to Christ. As Dr. R. C. Sproul comments on the sinner's plight: "As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will never choose Christ. He cannot choose Christ precisely because he cannot act against his own will...His fall is great. It is so great that only the effectual grace of God working in his heart can bring him to faith." In other words, God must do something first to bring him to faith. Salvation is not a divine-human partnership as our SDA friends believe. Importantly, salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. There are biblical examples of God using individuals solely to reveal his sovereign purpose and glory (exempla gratiae, the Pharoah of Egypt and Judas, the son of perdition from the beginning, who was chosen so that Scripture might be fulfilled). God in his wisdom and sovereignty establishes a calling and election to fulfill divine mission and/or purpose. Indeed, the ultimate decision for salvation rests with God and not with man. Jesus clearly stated, "...no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65 NASU). Certainly, it is a miracle of God's grace and calling that we are former Adventists. Calvinism correctly teaches a limited atonement. For example, Jesus did not die for everyone as our Armenian friends like to believe. He did not die for those who were not called (like the enemies of God in Old Testament times). His sacrifice on Calvary did not affect them in any way for salvation. Their fate of eternal torment was sealed prior to the Christ Event. The Great White Throne Judgment will only determine their eternal rewards in hell--not whether they should stay there. It is very true, like Chris pointed out, that Seventh-day Adventist belief system does not address predestination. This is apparently due to their Ellenesque preoccupation with perfectionism. As the great English preacher, Charles Spurgeon, aptly declared: "We are all born as Arminians. It is only by the grace of God that we become Calvinists." His grace still amazes me, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dennis, what a great post. It is the very fact that God chose us that gives us that ultimate assurance. When he died for us, He got what he paid for--us who believe-- besides Ephesians, I look to John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me I will by no means cast out." John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him: andI will raise him up at the last day." There can be no greater assurance than this. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1541 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree. We have no free choice unless God awakens us and gives us His Spirit so we can choose. I find God's sovereignty so reassuring and comforting. Colleen | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 158 Registered: 5-2004  |
Beautiful thoughts everyone! I'm finding that though while adventist I was conditioned to think very little of calvinism (not that I actually knew what it meant). But more and more, the basic teachings align with what I find in the Bible. Though not to say I'm in 100% agreement yet, and may never be, but it is especially the predestination of God's calling that I find enormously comforting as God's sovereignty becomes more and more evident. That is something I've thought of a great deal as I've transitioned. That daily, God is growing to mean and BE more and more. I've experienced completely new emotions bubbling up in my heart...praises for God that come from deep within and not from my own humble and feeble mind. Presdestination also helps me when arguing with SDA's for example, as I know that if it's the Father's will that any be saved, they WILL be saved...despite their own will. Not that that allows me to draw any conclusions about their abilitiy to be saved. It reminds me of something that I /i{think} Spurgeon said that goes something like: From the pulpit, I treat every person as if they had free will, calling them to Christ...though once saved, I instruct them of God's Sovereign calling and their predestination. He IS Able! |
