| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1673 Registered: 11-2002 |
I just had on the news. The Living God Church has been holding its weekly service each Sat. morning at the meeting room at a hotel in Wis. This morning one man who attended there opened fire with his handgun killing himself and five others. Two others are in extremely grave conditions are are expected to pass away. Dang! That's just so sad. Are any og you in Wis? If so, please keep us up on this case. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1674 Registered: 11-2002 |
An update about this sad situtation-the news said these people observe the Sabbath from sunset Fri. to sunset Sat. They are very strict about Sabbath observance. Eight people are now dead from the shooting. Two different Sabbathtarian groups meet at that motel on Sat. mornings in different meeting halls. It's sure sad. I just don't understand how come volitle people bring their guns to church. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1676 Registered: 11-2002 |
Rodrerick Meredith was trained under Herbert W. Armstrong as a minister in the WCG. When the WGC became Christian there were numereous groups that continued on with the origional teachings set forth by HWA. The Living Church of God was the church that continued with the teachings of HWA and is led by Roderrick Meredith. I believe (if memory serves me correctly) I went many years ago with my parents to hear Pastor Meredith speek. You can go to the Living Church of god official website and learn about it. It was at one of there meetings that the masacure took place this morning. The denomination has over 200 congreations that meet on Saturday mornings and who follow the teachings of HWA. It's just so, so sad. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 336 Registered: 4-2000  |
Susan, RE: Sabbatarian cult shootings in Wisconsin Strange theology usually attracts strange people--sometimes even sick people. For example, I am acquainted with a person who was a member of the original (Herbert W. Armstrong) Worldwide Church of God here in Lincoln. I have repeatedly invited her to visit our church; however, she is now more interested in believing a far-out, dynamic, and cultic TV preacher. Adventists and many other sects draw strength from a single, manipulating, dominant personage. It is sadly true that certain people gravitate toward weird, unorthodox belief systems. It is impossible to decipher the more cultic view of the two religions that she has embraced in her lifetime. She just seems to delight in feast celebrations, legal Sabbath observance, communion once a year, soul sleep, conditionalism, ad infinitum. Unfortunately, she seems to be aimlessly bent toward a progression of ever more esoteric worldviews and doctrines. Many people can only view the world from atop of their particular church steeple. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1677 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dennis and others, I just was at my moms. She had on Mark Findley and he said since 2 out of 5 people who drink alcohol have serious alcoholistic problems then that seems to him everyone should get rid of the alcohol because if he had a dog who only bit 2 out of 5 people who came to his house he'd have to get rid of his dog. Never mind, MF's weird reasoning. I mentioned to my mom about that church massacure. She remembered years ago hearing Pastor Meredith speek. But, the real knock-me-in-the-head comment was after I mentioned how sad it is that the guy opened fire killing all those people at the church my mom says that it was a good thing it happened at a Sabbath-keeping church because God will see that they had the truth of the Sabbath. I thought I'd throw up. So, whadda ya all think? Is my moms comment a common attitude among those farout folks or is she even for one of them extreme? Or, do a lot of those people think like her but have the good graces to not actually say what they think? Yes, Dennis, moderation is sorely lacking. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1186 Registered: 3-2004  |
Susan, I feel so sad about your Mom's attitude. I cannot say how others think as I have not been with an SDA for over a year. As for MF, I think he is typical SDA. I do continue to pray for all SDAs that they will see what a wonderful, awesome God we have without the sabbath. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 206 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Susan, I'm not trying to make light of the situation because the horror of what happened should never be treated that way, but I believe most Adventists deep down know that they will never be able to achieve being "perfect." The next best thing would be to die while worshipping. It's like a get-out-of-jail-free card for them. I'm sure that is the direction from which your mother's statement came. Belva | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 337 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, I read online news reports that the guy that killed the seven people in Wisconsin and wounded several others was a very devout sabbatarian. He reportedly skipped a family wedding to enable him to better observe the legal Sabbath. Your Mom's response reflects a rigid defense against anything negative about a sabbatarian group. It is truly amazing to what outrageous lengths our SDA friends will go to defend Sabbath-keeping. Despite all their rhetoric, they still do not observe the weekly Sabbath according to Old Testament directives. Why? Because it is impossible keep the Jewish Sabbath in our contemporary society. This alone is a valid reason that sabbathing is not intended for the Christian. For example, my mother-in-law will not even mail a letter on the Sabbath. She doesn't want the mailman to have to handle her correspondence on the Sabbath. I am aware of one occasion where she walked two miles on Friday afternoon to mail a letter during a cold, Nebraska blizzard to avoid mailing it in our mailbox on Saturday. Again, despite all this outward behavior, they still fall far short of proper Sabbath observance. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1680 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, a hearty yes to each of your comments about this. I agree with Belva that to die in church on the Holy Sabbath no less would seem to a Sabbathtarian to be a marter for the truth of the Sabbath. Sadly, the fact that this man was certanily messed up mentally to do such a thing gets tossed to the wayside for the greater truth, the Sabbath. Yes, Dennis I read also that the man was very staunch. I also went to the Living God Church website an its entire focus is on how current events are proving the end is approaching. They follow every disaster, every change in weather, the whole shabang. It is a church focused on end time prophicies, not on the Gosple of Christ Jesus. Yet,to hear that remark from my own mother kind-of threw me off ballance. She didn't say this next assessment but it seemed to me that by her comment she was assuming those people had a greater chance at eternal life because they were Sabbath-keepers than had they not been. I just think my moms attitude is extreme. And, Dennis that is a very sad and extreme story about your m-i-l. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 437 Registered: 10-2004  |
Dennis, And then some SDAs would have thought your mother-in-law was still a Sabbath-breaker for having the mail go through the postal system over the Sabbath.  Susan, I also went to that church's web site and looked at their beliefs, and they are a full-blown cult. They even believe that Satan is the scapegoat of Leviticus 16 like SDAs! But even before you look at their beliefs, you can tell it is a cult, just by this statement on the "About Us" page: "Church members today view themselves as the spiritual heirs of the original Jerusalem Church of New Testament time." Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1682 Registered: 11-2002 |
WOW! I just came from church and I'm so glad I went tonight. The sermon was The Cross vs. Our Own Perfection. I guess you all can figure that one out, after all, his was a sermon in a Lutheran church by a Lutheran minister. The minister said no matter how perfect we ever get we will still be sinners and there is no righteousness in us. It is by the power of The Cross that we are spotless before God. The pastor went on to say even if we became hermits way out in the mountains so we could live perfect lives we still would be sinners because we are commanded to teach the Good News to all the world and by not wittnessing Jesus we are not doing what God calls us to do. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 169 Registered: 5-2004  |
Wow!! i just got on this morning. We didn't see any news this weekend, so this is a shocker. While we currently live in MI, WI is "home" to us as we both grew up there and our families are there. Stephen's sister lives in Brookfield, and his Dad was pastor of the SDA church just a few blocks from there a couple years ago. I just pray for those people who have lost someone they love. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 131 Registered: 7-2000  |
Susan, go to the following link and read the article there. I think you will find it interesting. It is written by a former member of WWCG. It is called "Armstrongism Is Wrong, But Not Murderous." http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/111/42.0.html | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 727 Registered: 7-2003  |
Hmmmm.....this article seems to take a very soft view of a cult group that denies many of the essentials of the Christian faith. Perhaps such a soft tone is appropriate following great human tradgedy, but I can't help but be a bit offended by the subtle suggestion that this is just another denomonation within the church (albeit a bit misguided and unorthodox). I read an article in the March issue of CT just last night about a SDA Marine who re-enlisted then refused to bear arms because of his SDA beliefs. I thought the CT article seemed rather accepting of this behaviour and Adventism (at the least it was neutral). Funny, I don't see Mormonism or JW's portrayed in the same neutral light in CT. Chris | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1697 Registered: 11-2002 |
I also read the article Bob gives above. And, I agree that just after such a great sadness it is fitting to exhibit great compassion. I didn't think it was reasonable to mention David Koresh in the artice as in my opinion David Koresh was very rasonable and Janet Reno should be sitting on death row for the massacures over at Waco, so I don't get the comparrison. However, I do think those survivers of the Living Church of God need to get over being so pumped up about themselves and them only having the truth so they are offended at the sight of crosses at the makeshift memorial site. Yes, having gone to numerous WCG meetings back in the HWA day and have even gone to hear Pastor Meredith speek as well as Garner Ted Armstrong and his brother, the one that got killed in a vechile accident I knew they believed the cross is a santanic symbol. As such the survivers will feel way superior to their wellwishers and by that attitude they truly will miss out of Gods grace being gifted to them by Christians who are not part of their little weird cult. I had some acquaintences who I went to high school with. Right after h.s. they joined the WCG. They lived way out isolated in the mountains and home schooled their children and only associated with their HWA group and several others, including me. They were totally fearful of the last days coming right then. Well, anyway their house totally burned down. Their little child had taken a candel into the closet and then forgot it, the family left in the car and came back and their house was totally destroyed. Now what happened? The local little Baptist church who the family did not know anyone who even went there took up a special collection to help the family, only because they like helping locals in their times of need. The WCG family got $2000 from the little Baptist church and this was aound 30 years ago way before this inflation gone wild. The wife told me that was the move that led them out of the WCG and into true Christianity. They felt so superior to anyone before this happened because all other Christians were in Babalyon and they had the truth and she told me she wouldn't even talk with "those people". After the tradgedy and the reat kindness of the local Bapists my friends became truly Christians. I would hope that with this great sadness at the church shooting the LCG people would be able to see the true hearts of those who are extending their sympothies. And, yeah, I think CT is so leinant towards the SDA because the SDA leaders have pulled the wool over their eyes. One more thing, if the JW's ever come to your door and I'm sure they will and you want to make them leave just answer the door wearing a cross necklace, the bigger the cross the better. They are very fearful of the cross. It's sad but true. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1624 Registered: 12-2003  |
Chris, it's interesting you commented on Christianity Today. Is David Neff still the editor? I have not been able to understand for quite some time WHY CT has hired him to be editor. David Neff is an Adventist; he used to be the pastor of the WWC church. I don't know exactly where he stands regarding the church today, but as far as I know, he's never actually left the church. I read an interview with him from CT about a year ago, and I looked carefully for comments growing out of an Adventist worldview. He was careful not to betray any Adventism, but his view of Biblical scholarship bordered on the liberal edge (not surprising). In the interveiw he was addressing issues of Bible scholarship from a prettry intellectual viewpoint; I finished reading with the feeling that he had quite a scholarly approach to Bible text, but there wasn't any real passion or fire for the gospel. I mentioned the David Neff phenomenon to my former principal (who is himself quite an excellent Bible scholar and now teaches at California Baptist University), and he said that CT has gradually moved away from the fundamentalist position it took at its inception and has been adopting increasingly liberal views. Sigh. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1627 Registered: 12-2003 |
P.S. I should say the David Neff I knew of was SDA. I suppose it's possible that this might be a different David Neff--?? Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 732 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yes, David Neff is still currently an editor at CT (I believe he was the managing editor at one point). David Neff has an article published in the most recent issue of CT. He is, in fact, the same David Neff you are referring to, Colleen. He graduated from Andrews and recently had a letter published in the alumni magazine I get. I thought I had read somewhere that he is a former SDA, but I could be mistaken. I'll have to hunt around a little. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 733 Registered: 7-2003 |
Okay, here's what I found out. David Neff is not only the editor of CT, but the editorial vice-president for the organization. He is also the executive editor of a sister magazine called Books & Culture. I found a small blurb in an article by CRI on the WCG:
However, Neff must still have fairly close ties to Adventism because I found a post from Andrews U. stating that he spoke for a youth chapel at PMC on the third of this month. I also found a pro Sabbath article on the CT website authored by David Neff, but it was unclear to me if he was advocating for a day or a princple (although I think his point was toward the latter). So it's hard to say exactly what David Neff's stance on Adventism may be. I tried e-mailing him about this once, but he never responded. It seems he may have had some possible connections with Hank Hannegraaf at some point. This may help to explain some of the Hank's stance on Adventism, however I don't have enough info to draw any conclusions. Interesting. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1629 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, my--that is interesting. You may be on to something re: Hank and CRI. There's just something about all the tiny bits I've read and heard that make me question Neff's ties with the SDA church. I somehow don't sense that he is fundamentally in disagreement with it. Apparently he is comfortable endorsing it (at least to an extent) by agreeing to speak in chapel at Andrews... Somehow I doubt Andrews would invite Dale Ratzlaff, Mark Martin, Richard Fredericks, Greg Taylor, or Clay Peck to speak...! Colleen |
