| Author | Message | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 266 Registered: 9-2004 |
Needing your insight, comments etc. After a lot of studying and much more to do, I have come to understand why I believe what I have always believed in greater depth. When one has correct teaching from the beginning, I think you take things for granted. So before I met C and the rest of you guys, I didn't have a complete understanding of why we weren't under the law (except that Christ came) Is it complete now? of course not but certainly a clearer understanding and a confidence that I could defend why I believe what I believe. What am I getting to? This is where I am right now: I believe that Lord set a good example of a day of rest. All my saved life, I have pretty much set aside Sunday to go to church and just relax and rejuvenate before the next work week without realizing why. I don't believe the Genesis example is a commandment but an example that has tremendous value. I know that there was once a commandment, but not given to the nations so I choose to "ignore" it in that context but I can totally relate to Genesis. What else I know is that I don't view it as such hard and fast rules of what I should or shouldn't do, but as more of a mindset and heartset.. I doubt I will ever use the term sabbath except referring to Jews and people that "observe sabbath". I realize that I have always "observed a day of rest" and had a day specifically where I worshipped the Lord and viewed it as the Lord's Day -- Sunday. (And looking back, I viewed it as a little more special than my Wednesday night bible study and my Friday night prayer night) I also think that the SDAs seem to have a pretty good thing with regards to the closeness of their family (immediate specifically) as a result of having a strict rule of "sabbath-keeping" b/c it seems to have promoted communication with one another, time spent together and a bond development. I guess I am just saying I am not as hard set against the idea of observing sabbath as I once was -- but only in light of understanding God's intent for it for people and how it was in Genesis. I think I: 1. fought the idea of it b/c the SDAs so abuse it with judgement of others and b/c it is harped on in a denomination that is a cult (ish) and that made me defensive and obstinate not to mention ultra-sensitive (in these short months no less)... 2. never studied the idea of it before to see its relevance or God's intent. 3. I would never use "observing sabbath" in my life EVER -- (b/c I am not Jewish and I am not SDA or whatever) I am a believer, a Christian, a woman that loves the Lord and my relationship is NOT reduced to describing me as a "keeper" of anything. What do you guys think? and second question.. Are you completely opposed to the idea of rest or "sabbath" as some might say (b/c of improper teachings)? Tracey | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 221 Registered: 7-2004  |
First of all, I think we have to remember Romans 14 (I think) where it says one person esteems one day above another, and another person esteems every day alike. The Bible makes it clear it's completely a personal choice. Probably because of my SDA upbringing and since coming out of that, I am extra sensitive to anyone telling me I have to set aside a particular day (Saturday or Sunday) to worship and rest. I understand the idea that there is a specialness to Sunday because of the resurrection of Jesus and all that means, but Romans 14 tells me I am allowed to consider every day alike. In real life, obviously we all need to slow down and make time for God. I try to do that a small part of each day. I also try to slow way down over the weekend and use that time to spend extra time with God--simply because I feel like I need my spiritual batteries charged. I don't "observe" any particular hours of the week. Because of my specific schedule, I often end up with this down time being from around early afternoon Saturday to middle of the afternoon Sunday. I work hard with a school class Saturday morning, and try to catch up on my job-related work (I work out of home) on Sunday afternoon. Sometimes when I have an extra busy weekend I use Monday as my down time because I currently have no official obligations on that day. I guess my point is, there is no command, and I don't want anyone telling me that even though there is no command, it makes sense and so I really should. It goes back to personal choice between one individual and God. That's my opinion, anyway. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 267 Registered: 9-2004 |
I totally know where you are coming from Raven.. And I agree with you! If I consider Sunday special though, it's pretty much in my heart, it's not something I would need to tell folks or preach about... And I am graduating this quarter and man, I know about needing to have down time and spritual batteries, as you say to rejuvie! Tracey | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 268 Registered: 9-2004 |
Not to mention, I still do whatever I want on Sundays.. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 724 Registered: 7-2003  |
Tracey, As Raven already said, Romans 14 makes a day or worship or rest a non-issue. Christians are free to hold a day special or not hold a day special. It should also be noted that the command to not let anyone judge you based on a Sabbath day in Colossians 2 cuts both ways. This is in harmony with Romans 14. Those that hold Sunday special have no right to judge those that hold Saturday special and vice versa. The options of having a special day for rest, worship, family, etc., or to hold everyday alike, are both viable options within our Christian freedom. The only problem comes when someone attempts to make a day a test of fellowship, a dividing line between believers, a measure of holiness, a measure of obedience, or a practice that can allow a believer to lose their salvation. This is legalism, Galatianism of the worst type. This perversion of the Gospel we must stand against just as strongly as the apostle Paul did. So what about yoking ourselves to someone who believes a day of worship is a dividing line between believers or who believes that rejecting the ětruthî of a day may result in loss of salvation? To be so yoked is to be either unequally yoked or to accept a yolk of bondage onto ones self for the sake of peace. Please read the first three chapters of Galatians (really, itís worthwhile to read them again). See what Paul said to the Galatians that were trying to please men by accepting legalistic practices that amounted to a ědifferent gospelî that was no gospel at all. He had very strong words for them! We see later in the book that one of Paulís central concerns was that the Galatians were that they had begun observing certain days at the urging of these men. Paul railed against this in the strongest terms. I say this with all love. I truly do. An SDA that still has the Sabbath deeply ingrained in them as a binding obligation on them, cannot truly separate themselves from the legalism involved in sabbatizing until they are able to come to the place that they realize Sabbath is at the very most an option and is not binding at all. They may not admit this, they may even deny that there is any legalism involved, but I assure you (with love) itís there and itís deeply ingrained. I can say another thing with a high degree of certainty (again, please here me with love). I can say this thing because I have personally experienced it and I have seen it again, and again, and again, and again, with nearly every SDA of my generation that I have known. When the kids come, no matter how they did or didnít observe Sabbath in the past, it will become imperative that the kids be raised with a proper SDA understanding of the Sabbath and that everyone in the family set a good example in proper Sabbath observance. This is just a fact of the Adventist culture. Tracey, I pray that you will take the post in the tender love that it is intended. I also pray that you will carefully consider these things and that you will carefully consider the path you are considering. Can you see how subtly legalism begins to assert itself? Can you see how the Galatians got sucked into a different Gospel a little bit at a time? Adventism cast a long shadow that enshrouds those who are in it and darkens the doors of those who are close to it. This is true of all legalism. This was true in Galatia. In brotherly love, Chris | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 269 Registered: 9-2004 |
Chris, But this has nothing to do with C. I am talking about me and my experience from meeting C and you guys. I agree with what you said. And I am not saying ANYTHING about changing my lifestyle. I hear you, but I wonder if you are ultra sensitive (coming from an abusive situation in SDA) whereas I come from neutral and would have a more normal common sense rationale about it.. (kinda like the food/potluck issue talk we had with Raven) Question: did anything I typed in the previous post appear to be legalistic? Or can you look at yourself objectively and answer the question "Am I overly sensitive b/c I never came from a normal position of this subject?" I am not arguing but your responses and question to me, are what I wanted.. It's a check and balances kind of thing. understand this though, my lifestyle would not change, I said it is a mindset and a heartset how Sundays are. do I shop on Sundays? uh, yep! go to the movies? yep. whatever I please. I am referring to the heart in that previous post, not my actions. And I think that's where formers have trouble finding balance about this issue. B/c it was so ingrained in you to do nothing to show you loved sabbath and were obedient to sabbath. When all I am saying is I love Sundays but am not commanded to enjoy it one way or another. can you see my point? | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 270 Registered: 9-2004 |
Yes, I understand your legalism points by the way.. Which, if you knew me, I couldn't be legalistic if my life depended on it. Unfortunately, in my house, we had few if any rules and I became quite the free spirit. I can't change! : ) Although my boss would like me to come to work at a consistent time! haha! | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 271 Registered: 9-2004 |
And viewing it as special never meant I witheld doing things b/c I didn't. They don't have to be connected like I think the history SDA has taught. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 725 Registered: 7-2003 |
The objective answer is "Yes, I am extremely sensitive about the subject because of my background." I have to be honest and objective about the fact that I will always be more sensitive to some subjects than others are and I must evaluate my thoughts and responses in that light. Given this self-awareness I still believe the points I have outlined to be valid points worth considering. May the Lord bless you greatly and lead you daily Tracey! In love, Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 800 Registered: 7-2003  |
I know I also have tended to have a different schedule on Sundays, particularly when we used to have Sunday evening services that I went to as well as the AM services. However, it had absolutely nothing to do with "Sunday" per se. That happened to be the day of the week services were, but if they were Tuesday, I would treat it the same. I know my pastor says the principle we can learn from the 4th commandment is to balance our work life with our family life, but I still think that is trying to make the 4th commandment relevant for today. Having said that, because of Bs strong SATURDAY only beliefs, I would never try to justify my worship/wind down/relax time with a holy day of any sort. I do tend to take a nap Sunday afternoon that I probably wouldn't another day, and I do tend to do less "work", but only because half the day is shot by the time I get home from church, and I hate to start something I can't finish before running headlong in to the next workweek. There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with having a "rest" day, but I think the SDA stance is not so much rest as holy day. At least that is what B always pushes. Saturday is "God's holy day" and they worship on "God's holy day". If you try to equate the two in even the remotest way, I think C may only see it as you starting to accept the "sabbath truth." As Raven said, I don't set aside one particular time or day for "God" or family, per se. Depending upon the soccer schedule, my whole life shifts. Some weeks I go to church on Saturday, sometimes Sunday. But I do try to take time every day to read the Bible and definately pray every day. I actually do more "family" things on Saturdays because we don't have to rush off to church. I think each family situation is different, as well as one's convictions. But I would hate to see you working too hard to equate your "Sunday" to a "sabbath" even in a principle way. Christ fulfilled the law. period. It could create a real stumbling block in the long run for C, if nothing else. I know what you're saying, but as I've asked a number of people through the years what they think of the issue of the sabbath, I have only realized that people are trying to honor the 4th commandment somehow, never really understanding its deeper meaning. These are merely my observations and not at all a judgment on what you might be thinking. Only knowing what I see and have seen in my experiences with B and the other SDAs I have talked to about this topic. This is not a little topic in their religion, it is all-consuming and very devisive as Chris has said. Having said that, I do understand on some level what you are saying about Genesis, but that seems to be the SDA twist to it (trying to make the sabbath an institution from creation). But reading Genesis straight on for what it says without presumptions, the "rest" in Genesis was not a sleep, I'm exhausted type rest for man. It was God's rest, ceasing. Since I've been "decorating" my new house, I liken it to looking at a room after the paint and paper is done, the furniture all in place. You see the pieces while you're planning and buying, when it's done, you get to see the whole and how it fits. Sometimes I just sit and look. I don't see Genesis as creating some rest day mandate, no matter how hard I try. He ceased what he was doing (it was done) and enjoyed it. For me, what is special is gathering together to praise with my church family. It doesn't matter when it is. Those are my comments, not judgements. As Chris has said, I continue to see this as a yoking issue with you and C...and I understand how hard that is to say (just as hard as it is for an SDA to say EGW is a false prophet). I know the rationalizations, and I know you probably don't think this is some form of rationalization to their stance in the remotest way. But I've been there. Looking back, I was just trying to mesh two incongruent thoughts into something not so different. Maybe I'm completely off base. I just wouldn't wish you any more pain. Guard your heart. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 272 Registered: 9-2004 |
okay, I hear you Chris... I have spent my saved life more concerned with my time given to the Lord than the day and I should do that. I just kinda see the idea behind this subject relating to my lifestyle anyway. This comes as a surprise to me actually. But surely I know the time spent with the Lord in study and prayer is more important than the day I do it, Chris. Thanks for your words and the continued dialogue. But now Melissa makes a point that goes beyond just myself. (I had posted that mindblown discussion and that was what led me to examine Jesus referring back to creation and how God intended things to be -- this is what led to today's topic) The part that she says about this sabbath issue being sooo big in that religion. And if I throw C into the equation, which I don't feel was a large point, I do see how I could be misleading him or create a stumbling block. I do not view it as holy or unholy.. but neutral. But my time in church with the Lord is special and wonderful and I love the fellowship. I certainly wouldn't want him to think I am "joining the team!!" Guarding the heart, and just learning lessons through all of this. And taken all in love and giving y'all love in return! thanks! Tracey | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1616 Registered: 12-2003  |
I so feel for you, Tracey. Even your own traditions of worship might have implications for C you never intended. Raven is right about Romans 14 giving us permission to observe a day or not. I have to say, though, that I really resonate to Chris's and Melissa's posts. I freely admit I'm overly sensitive. I just find myself a bit reactive to the idea of Genesis being a model for resting on a day. When I began to understand that the finished work of Christ is what ushers in the Sabbath, Genesis no longer had overtones for resting on a day. God "hallowed" the seventh-day--but that day (in the creation story) didn't have an "evening" and a "morning". It had no beginning or end. My 18-year old son had a great insight into God resting from His work (with Adam and Eve in intimacy and rest with Him) and hallowing that seventh "day" as an example of the Sabbath rest that Jesus restored. He said, "God might just as well have said, 'It Is Finished!' " Wow. He got it. So, while I understand the idea of resting on a day, I find Romans 14 to be much more helpful to me in providing rationale for a day than I find Genesis to be. Again, I freely admit I'm overly sensitive, and I have no quarrel with you observing a day. Melissa's point, though, about the implications/permission your observance might carry for C (with no knowledge on your part of what might be going through his mind!) is very apt. Speaking as a former Adventist, I would find that permission to be there unless I had already, as Lisa said yesterday, traded my Sabbath for Jesus. I still believe that for anyone who has been Adventist to be free of the spiritual bondage of the Sabbath, he/she must come to the point of being able to completely give up the Sabbath, simply trusting Jesus to be enough as they "trample the day". I'm not trying to talk you out of your day, Tracey! I'm just musing from my own (warped) experience! You are a gem--we love that you are part of our forum family! Colleen | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 274 Registered: 9-2004 |
I just read the the Hebrew bible in english.. and until you wrote the above, I forgot that the seventh day didn't have an ending... Then add the scripture that Jesus is the second Adam.. Which explains the way things were originally supposed to be. Yes, our rest is continual in the second Adam, our Lord Jesus. Thanks, it is finished! Although, I still hate to listen to secular music on my main worship day (Sunday) I can't confuse C or any lurkers with my thoughts but I did want to run them past you guys.. Thanks a lot for the input. (But I have to say I wouldn't be "obviously" observing a day with rules, but just in my heart) Feel free to delete this discussion if the ideas may seem to promote adventism in ANY way.. I would really hate to confuse someone searching. Love you guys sooo much! Tracey | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 275 Registered: 9-2004 |
I just read the the Hebrew bible in english.. and until you wrote the above, I forgot that the seventh day didn't have an ending... Then add the scripture that Jesus is the second Adam.. Which explains the way things were originally supposed to be. Yes, our rest is continual in the second Adam, our Lord Jesus. Thanks, it is finished! Although, I still hate to listen to secular music on my main worship day (Sunday) I can't confuse C or any lurkers with my thoughts but I did want to run them past you guys.. Thanks a lot for the input. (But I have to say I wouldn't be "obviously" observing a day with rules, but just in my heart) Feel free to delete this discussion if the ideas may seem to promote adventism in ANY way.. I would really hate to confuse someone searching. Love you guys sooo much! Tracey | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 276 Registered: 9-2004 |
I just read the the Hebrew bible in english.. and until you wrote the above, I forgot that the seventh day didn't have an ending... Then add the scripture that Jesus is the second Adam.. Which explains the way things were originally supposed to be. Yes, our rest is continual in the second Adam, our Lord Jesus. Thanks, it is finished! (But I have to say I wouldn't be "obviously" observing a day with rules, but just in my heart) Although, I still hate to listen to secular music on my main worship day (Sunday). I don't want to confuse C or any lurkers with my thoughts but I did want to run them past you.. Thanks a lot for the input. Feel free to delete this discussion if the ideas may seem to promote adventism in ANY way.. I would really hate to confuse someone searching. Love you guys sooo much! Tracey | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 453 Registered: 10-2004  |
I agree with Colleen about Genesis not being a model for a day of rest. It simply says that God ceased creating the world on the seventh day. And He did not start creating again on Sunday, Monday, or any other day. It was finished. It was an eternal rest ("ceasing"). And neither Adam nor Eve could have ceased creating the world, because they didn't create it.  But, of course, they were able to enjoy, and rest in, the finished work of their Creator, perpetually--until sin. And, of course, we can now enter into that rest again, through Jesus Christ. But I just don't see anything about any "Sabbath" in Genesis at all. Jeremy | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 443 Registered: 6-2002 |
Analogy: In the fall of 1621 the settlers at Plymouth held a three day festival to give thanks for a good harvest and better health. In 1863 Congress established the last thursday in November as a U. S. national holiday based, in part, on the 1621 event. The event in 1621, was NOT a U. S. national holiday. It did not begin any yearly "thanksgiving day" holiday. Although there were various celebrations or proclamations about the 1621 event before 1863, not one was a mandated, legal, yearly U. S. National Holiday. Nor, for that matter, were any of the Thanksgiving day holidays after 1863 exactly like the 1621 event. So, although truly related, the 1621 event and Thanksgiving day started in 1863 are not the same. Now, let us tell the same story with some things substituted: On the very first seventh day, after six days of creation God rested from His work of creation. At Mount Sinai, God established the weekly Sabbath (day of rest from earthly work) on the seventh day of every week for the Israelites holiday based, in part, on the creation event. The creation event, was NOT a day of rest from earthly work. It did not begin any weekly Holy day. Although there were A FEW days of rest (Exodus 12, Exodus 16) declared by God prior to Sinai before 1863, not one was a weekly day of rest from earthly work. Nor, for that matter, were any of the days of rest after Sinai exactly like the creation event. So, although truly related, the creation event and weekly seventh day Sabbath started at Sinai are not the same. Don't ya just HATE analogies? | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 279 Registered: 9-2004 |
LOL @ Jerry!! I just Loooove analogies! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 230 Registered: 7-2004 |
CARM has a disertation on Trinity. I copied a portion that I considered pertinent, it is by no means the whole thing, but this covers the discussion of whether or not one member of the trinity is subordinate to others or not. Here it is. ----- Is there subordination in the Trinity? There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16). This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son. But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. A wife is to be subject to her husband but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38). Does this mean that the one sent must, therefore, be of different nature than the one who sent him? Of course not. Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way. But this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and the servant we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human. ----- I'm still learning and digesting the Trinity information. I think this is a subject very difficult for us mortals, because we can only conjure up images that our 3-dimensional awareness allows us to experience. Belva | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 281 Registered: 9-2004 |
The trinity confusion is new to me since joining this forum. I had no idea there was difficulty in underrstanding it.. I assume SDA taught something different from Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit being the same? |
