| Author |
Message |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 484
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 3:07 pm: |     |
Melissa, I think a couple of the reasons SDAs so "naturally" think the Law of Christ = the 10 Cs, is because, first of all, EGW says that "Christ" (using that word) gave the Law ("10 Cs"). Also, probably at least partially due to EGW's use of the word, SDAs seem to see the word "Christ" as just a name for Jesus, sort of like "Jesus." They don't think of "Christ" as a title meaning "Messiah," as those originally reading the NT would have. The NT is obviously saying that the Messiah came and gave His (new and different) law--just like the OT said He would! The Jews never would have thought the term "law of Messiah" would mean "law of Moses" (which meant the whole law!). Sadly, the SDAs cannot see how absurd it is, due to the veil. 
Did you know that EGW uses the word "Christ" about twice as often as the name "Jesus," when the Bible uses "Jesus" about twice as often as "Christ"? Hmmm...something's wrong there.
Jeremy |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 220
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 10:30 pm: | |
Colleen, it is rare when I find myself disagreeing strongly with one of your statements, but tonight I will. I think there is much truth in your statement
quote:That's why, I believe, former Adventists have to completely abandon--sooner or later--the Sabbath in order to surrender oneself fully to Jesus without hedging one's bets by somehow treating the Sabbath specially. It's not just about a day; it's about the full commitment of one's heart and mind and life to Jesus.
Many of us who have gone through the process recognize how easy it is to hedge our bets. And we can see, in hindsight, how important it was to surrender to Him, to totally trust Him, in order to genuinely enter into His true Sabbath rest. The need to hedge our bets with our own efforts at resting on a day "just in case" was a barrier to fully understanding resting in Jesus.
At the same time, I fear that the strength of our statements about that process may lead to as much fear and apprehension as they do encouragement to some of our brothers and sisters here. Even though what we describe is a common experience, are we really willing to say that it is the only experience? Should we speak more about the blessings we found in a deeper understanding and experience of what grace really means when we could step out of the shadow and into His rest than we do about the "problems" faced by those who haven't had this experience? I, for one, am not ready to conclude that someone is committing "spiritual adultery" because their path out of SDAism hasn't walked directly in the footsteps of my own. |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 338
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 6:02 am: | |
I think also a major difference b/w you and Colleen is that you joined SDA for a number of years and Colleen was raised in it from family (right?) So, perhaps her impact of sabbath keeping is deeper (remember that imprinting conversation about parents etc?) So I could see her view being as completely abandoning it given she was taught a false balance, if you will, of sabbath.
I wonder do Jews feel "liberated" keeping it compared to that of SDAs. |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 339
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 6:24 am: | |
2Cor. 3:7-11
Very Important b/c C wanted something concrete that said 10 Cs were replaced. I gave him an article about God's moral char. being eternal and the diff in cere. and moral. from that site I gave you guys. He thought it made good points
But he needed to see something that said not just the law but the 10Cs were part of it that was fading. All I can say is that God is Good.
I called C after reading Praise God and Cy's suggestion of the "ariel.org" site.
I said C, sit down.. Are you sitting? He said yeah. I said I have found scripture with the help of this article that the 10 Commandments are specifically referred to in the new testament as being fading away for something better.
He skeptically (imo) said "Where" and got his bible. I was at work, so he read in the NIV sentence by sentence with me stopping him to ask "okay now what is that "the written, engraved on stones" ' He would answer "the 10 commandments" and we did that for 7-11 each.
I was silent. I was like C! What do you think of that??? You aren't giving any reaction!!
He said Well, I have studied that. I said well, does it pique your interest or what?? He said yeah, it does. He said Good job finding that scripture. I said C, God gets the glory. I don't get any satisfaction in being right about God's word. I rejoice in finding the truth, and that's it! This isn't about my ego. Imean, thanks for saying good job, but that's not the point.
Then I said, "if you are just like 'Whatever' or are you open?" He said I'm open. I said why are you open? He said b/c I want to do what God wants me to do.
I said Good, cuz so do I.
Later that night, he didn't call me, not sure why but I called him. He said that he couldn't sleep after our conversation (he was home early and tried to nap). So then he tells me that he read the article on the Ariel website that Cy gave me (And Esther has). He owuldn't expound and basically,I was too afraid to ask if he received it.
Please continue praying for this sould
Today is our study day. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 148
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 7:27 am: | |
Praying Tracy!
Mary (helovesme2) |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 221
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 7:39 am: | |
Tracey, the patience and persistence of your witness touches each of us. We continue to pray for C, and particularly for you.
I fully agree with Colleen that anytime we hedge our bets relative to God it involves a lack of trust on our part and interferes with the blessing and richness of understanding that He has for us. In fact, I did just that with Sabbath for years. So even though I might do a number of things that would make many SDAs uncomfortable, I still wouldn't engage in wage earning activities "just in case." For a long time I rationalized this by saying (to myself) that it really is important that my job doesn't dominate everything else in my life, so having some time when I don't work on job-related stuff can't be a bad thing. It wasn't until "Raven" was ready to leave SDAism that I had to face up to my hedging. But I also realized that this hedging was two-fold, it was about both the 7th day and the whole of my life. Now I have to face the tougher challenge of not allowing my career to dominate my life each day.
My disagreement with Colleen wasn't whether or not people hedge their bets regarding the Sabbath, nor whether there were spiritual dangers in this. My contention regarded whether or not it was reasonable to conclude that someone else's motives for an action must be the same as our own motives. |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 340
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 8:07 am: | |
Rick, I wanted to me to come and see you this weekend but it's Easter.
Can we come for a visit (lunch or something somewhere -- bring the kids) next month?
Thanks, I am really trying.
Even if I break it off with him, I won't let the devil decieve him the rest of His life. I think I might have found a ministry in me for this beyond him. I will be praying though.
Also, above I made a mistake.
C was silent after reading that. He didnt argue for once.
And also, C said "I have NOT studied that.."
I said by mistake above, that he said he did study this.
Rick, if you let us come, you are a great friendly guy but I hope you are ready!! I know you will be though. |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 341
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 8:09 am: | |
Bob, Colleen, Melissa,
I hear you guys and I take your words and apply them to my situation regularly.
Thank you! Thank you ! Thank you! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1680
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 9:06 am: | |
Ric, I understand your disagreement and see your point. Thank you for expressing it.
I remember hearing Clay Peck say in his six-cassette sermon series about New Covenant Christians produced in the late 90's that if we embrace the New Covenant but also hold onto the law, we commit spiritual adultery. Dale Ratzlaff also makes this statement in Sabbath in Christ, I believe it is.
My clinging to the Sabbath for years ultimately clarified for me into a recognition that I wasn't really sure if I would be breaking God's decree if I let it go completely. It wasn't so much that I thought of it as the law, but that it was God's "command". What it really boiled down to for me was realizing that I couldn't trust 100% in Jesus if I held onto anything else as connected to my obedience or righteousness.
I recognize what you're saying, though, about perhaps causing guilt or fear in those who haven't let the day go. I really believe that God Himself directs every person who seeks Him, and He makes it clear to each individual when they need to deal with that day. Until God puts the issue of the day in front of you and beckons you either to walk to Him or detour through the day, giving up the day is premature. God unfolds the gospel to each of us in different times frames and in different ways.
I guess I'm not willing to back away from linking it to a spiritual power, though, because I really believe that to be true. We can't ultimately cling to a deception and also embrace Jesus as our all-in-all.
During my Adventist Today days, I interveiwed a pastor in Oregon who was fired for his theology. He left and started a non-SDA church. I'll never forget his saying to me that he believed the Adventist church came very close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit by calling the Sabbath the seal of God and thus putting it in the place of the Holy Spirit.
I remember thinking then that the Sabbath is a powerful symbol exactly because it is the shadow that pointed to Jesus' finished work. What better spiritual deception than to replace Jesus with a powerful symbol of Him?
Neverthless, I understand your reaction, Ric, and I do respect it. I do not mean to imply that a person still observing Sabbath is necessarily commiting spiritual adultery. I believe we cross that line only if we refuse to grapple with the issue when God brings it clearly into focus in our experience. And, as I know from personal experience, that point may actually take months or years to arrive in our process of pursuing Jesus and truth.
I have great empathy will all who are struggling with these issues. I so KNOW how deep and agonizing these struggles are, and how much fear and doubt are part of dissecting away truth from deception. But God is faithful; we can trust Him to complete the work He begins in us. He will makes the Sabbath issue clear to each person at just the right time!
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 222
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 9:38 am: | |
Tracey,
We would love to get together, here or up there. Let's coordinate some days via email.
Colleen,
Thanks for your comments. I think we need to be sensitive to the advice in Romans 14
quote:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
But hedging one's bet is just the opposite of being fully convinced in one's own mind. Moving from fear to trust is a powerful experience.
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1683
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 10:07 am: | |
Ric, you're right. In fact, I was just coming to my computer to write a post referring to Romans 14 when I saw your post above. I totally agree; I cannot ever assume that esteeming a day is wrong in another person's experience. I love the way you put it--that hedging one's bets is the opposite of being fully convinced.
God knows why we give to Him what we give--even our observances. Thank you for posting Romans 14:4-5. I agree completely with your post above.
Colleen |
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