| Author | Message | ||
| Foreverscout Registered user Username: Foreverscout Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 |
When my brother Bill told us he became saved several years ago, we were all thrilled. When we saw how quickly he began to study the word, we were excited. Then... He started in on my sister first as she is married to a Catholic and has promised to raise her children Catholic. Instead of arguing with him, she simply told him that they would agree to disagree and speak of it no more. I don't fight or argue either, I don't feel the need to, but as I have studied the Bible more than my mother or sister I am in a better position to talk with Bill. He is so caught up in this Sabbath thing, has been for a couple years now, but it finally came to a head because my brother has e-mail now and we can keep in constant contact. I tried to explain that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. I tried to explain the the Laws have been fulfilled; Jesus said so, I even told him the verses to find it in. His words were to me, "WRONG AGAIN. More research required. That cloud of dust is me shaking off my shoes now. GOD BLESS YOU" I can't believe he is letting this church separate us. I am not going to give up on my brother, but there are two things I need to know: It seems from what I have found so far that EG White was a false prophet; is my brother's salvation in question then? Especially considering that he would not believe in his justification by grace alone, but only by grace + works. How can I reach him, especially without alienating him? And I guess I really have so many other questions besides these, but I will ask them later on. Please help me, to be of help to him, I love him so much. Foreverscout | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1242 Registered: 3-2004  |
Foreverscout, You are finding out how hard it is to show SDAs what the Bible really says and they do not understand it. I used to be that way until I gave up EGW. But telling the SDA EGW is a false prophet only makes the SDA defend her more. So, what I do with my SDA relatives is just love them, pray for them and ask God to give me the words to say to them. Three of my sisters have not attended the SDA church for years and do not practice the beliefs, but the SDA church still has a hold on them. So a person does not have to be an active member in the church to still hang onto it. So I just pray for them and pray some more and love them lots. I know it hurts to see a loved one believe a false prophet and not really know that all he/she needs is Jesus. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 466 Registered: 10-2004  |
Foreverscout, welcome to the forum.  You say that your brother told you he became saved several years ago. Was that at the same time that he joined the SDA church? And did he actually say he was saved? Usually SDAs don't believe in saying or even knowing that they are "saved." I guess my question would be, did he really understand the Gospel and was he really saved or not. If he was only taught by SDAs and was taught their false gospel, etc., then perhaps he is not really saved. And yes, Ellen G. White was definitely a false prophet. And the SDA church is totally a cult--although it is sometimes hard to convince those who have not experienced it. God bless, Jeremy | ||
| Foreverscout Registered user Username: Foreverscout Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 |
Flyinglady, I only gave him Bible verses at first. Then I thought after he sent this one website that I should do some research. So I went to "AskJeeves" and put in: who founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church? This is how I found all kinds of interesting sites and info. Scary stuff really. I was wise enough never to use the word false prophet with him, it would have been like adding gasoline to the fire. I did however send him this website and a few others, ones that I felt would not incite violence. It floors me that he would not read/listen/believe Bible verses. What's up with that? The Bible is the final word with me. If I don't understand something in it, I follow the thread through other verses/chapters/books in the Bible. I ask God for His guidance, His wisdom, or a spirit of discernment. Or I can ask friends who also study what their take is on it, or I can ask my Pastor, but it all always comes back to the Bible, that's the final Word. New question. My Dad was a born again Christian who died in 1985. He won't answer me on this one, where does my brother think my Dad is? I do know that my Dad is in Heaven with Jesus, but it saddens me that Bill no longer knows this is God's Truth. Foreverscout aka Pamela | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1245 Registered: 3-2004 |
Pamela, As an SDA just about all their beliefs are tied into being a salvation issue. Ellen G. White has a very strong hold on SDAs and they will believe her and defend her more than they will the Bible. Although they claim to believe the Bible only they also believe EGW is a prophet. Go to the links part of this web site. I think there is a link to a site about EGWhite. If it is not there I will post it here tomorrow. The sabbath is tied into salvation. It is very complicated and right now I am getting tired and cannot do a very good job of explaining it. Honestly, no one has ever asked me to explain these things before. But there are many on here who can. I just left adventism a year ago and am still learning what the Bible says. SDAs believe that when a person dies, that is it. There is no spirit that leaves them and returns to God or goes elsewhere. I am glad you are here. This is a terrific support system. I am getting tired and it is past my bedtime and I have to get up for work tomorrow. Quite honestly, I do not mind staying up a little later and trying to help another person. God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1642 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hi, Pamela! Welcome to the forum! We're glad you're here, and we'll do our best to answer your questions and support you in this complicated and sometimes difficult journey. If your brother has truly surrendered his heart and life to Jesus, then he is saved. Many of us were saved in the Adventist church, but we didn't really understand what that meant or experience our freedom in Jesus. I know that I always wanted to serve Jesus and would pray to belong to Him, but I did not know how to know him. God knew, though, and I belonged to Him long before I understood that I was His. He brought me into a realtionship with Himself that eventually led me out of the Adventist church. He also made it very clear to me that my leaving Adventism was my "leaving the 'world'" that symbolized my identifying with Him and experiencing freedom and Sabbath rest in Him. Only God knows whether or not your brother is really saved. Diana and Jeremy are right when they say you cannot argue or convince an Adventist. They have to desire to know the truth before they will be receptive to it. There is a spiritual claim on them that constitutes the veil covering their hearts so they cannot understand the gospel. The most powerful thing you can do is to pray for him and to ask God to give you opportunities and words to speak when the times are right. Oh, as an Adventist, your brother believes your father is really nowhere. His body is in the ground; his "spirit" (he believes the spirit is merely one's breath) returns to God. Therefore, your father is "sleeping" (read that 'nonexistent') until the resurrection at which time God will re-create him from His divine memory. Colleen | ||
| Foreverscout Registered user Username: Foreverscout Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Jeremy, Well, my family, (immediate), is Lutheran, but a strange lot, we are born-again and believe in being saved. Especially me, cause I'm the black sheep that had a real born-again experience with a bright light settling down on me and everything, IT WAS AWESOME! (To be honest, I haven't told too many people that, I'm afraid they might think I'm nuts.) But it's true. Anyways, I don't honestly remember Bill's exact words to me. I do remember my Mom saying he was saved, and when I called him and asked him if it was true that he was saved, he said yes. He was only just starting to go to the SDA church, only about one month at the time I think. No being saved, huh? I guess if you don't burn in Hell forever, there really isn't anything to be saved from, is there? I find this all so very bizarre. What then would be the point? I mean in going to an SDA church? There is just so much I don't understand. Foreverscout aka Pamela | ||
| Foreverscout Registered user Username: Foreverscout Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi colleen, Well, when I think of how Bill has changed since he began going to church, ie: not at all. Then I really have to wonder. I do love him more than words can tell, but it's like hugging a cactus. Course I'm not too smart, I'll keep going back hoping for a different result. By the way, my Dad's body is not in the ground, we happen to be of the ashes to ashes belief. My Dad's remains were sprinkled in his favorite spot, just off of the coast of Point Loma in San Diego. To me, this body is just a vessel, a kind of tupperware for my soul/spirit. I plan for my kids to have me cremated too, I won't take up any space, it's cheaper. Then, for something meaningful for them, I've asked them to sprinkle me in a campfire, some in a Girl Scout Camp, some in a Boy Scout Camp. This 'ole body is just a tupperware, by then the real me will have gone to be with Jesus! YEAH, what rejoicing then! No aches, no pains, no tears and NO WRINKLES! God is so good to me. Foreverscout | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 804 Registered: 7-2003  |
Pamela, I dated an SDA for a number of years before finally realizing his religion was too strong to ever have a real place for this "apostate" in his life. There are several of us here who haven't ever been SDA, but are dramatically and forever impacted by its claws. I don't have any words of wisdom for you other than to tell you there is no silver bullet. There is no secret verse or magic message you can give him that will help open his eyes. If he is mesmerized by the religion and the arrogance it seems to breed in those who understand it's "special" truths, the only hope is the Holy Spirit. I didn't like that answer the first time someone told it to me, and I can't think it will bring peace to you either. It could mean your brother will wander in the wilderness for a while longer. But here you will find support and understanding ... and best of all, a really reliable source of information about the meaning of adventism to the adventist. There is a lot of double-speak and mixed meanings to words, so often it is hard to even have a conversation. Personally, if you have the relationship to plant scripture, do that, but avoid arguing. In the long run, it will only frustrate you, and in some warped way seem to affirm to your brother that you are truly "babylon". I like your tupperware analogy. And I agree. Unfortunately, SDAs see that as the last great deception ... believing you go to be with Jesus...isn't that something Satan benefits from?? It's hard to not get angry when you see someone you care about sucked into what seems like an abyss, so feel free to vent here. We've all done it, and we all need the empathy that can really only come from those who've been there. Much peace to you, my sister. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 467 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Pamela, Here is a link to a page on this website which might be helpful: http://www.formeradventist.com/aboutadventism.html It's called, "Adventism: A Thumbnail Sketch" You wrote...
They believe that salvation is something which occurs at the Second Coming, if they have become perfect and sinless by the "close of probation" (something which happens shortly before the Second Coming according to SDAs). If they die before that, then a lot of them think that they don't have to become perfect in order to be saved at the resurrection at the Second Coming, as long as they were on their way to becoming perfect when they died. Not all SDAs believe that you have to become perfectly sinless, but this is the traditional teaching, and almost all of them do believe in salvation by grace + works (especially Sabbath) in some way or another. In other words, they live with no assurance of salvation. The prophetess Ellen White says that you can't say or even know that you are saved. Of course, with their view of death, you cease to exist when you die. So there really isn't any chance of a Resurrection, since God would have to re-create someone that looked like you--it wouldn't really be you! But they don't see it that way. But if you take their doctrine to it's logical conclusion, then you would have to believe that there is no resurrection! They believe that the body + spirit ("breath") = soul. So when you die, your breath leaves your body, and the soul is gone. Therefore, you cease to exist. It's a very pagan/atheistic view of death. Their belief that the spirit is only breath is one of their foundational heresies, as it impacts so many other doctrines. For example, they can't even really believe in being "born again" because Jesus says that our "spirit" is what's born again and brought to eternal life (John 3:6). As you can see, the SDAs have their own "dictionary." They use the same words/terms as Christians, but they have totally different meanings/definitions. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on March 22, 2005) | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 137 Registered: 8-2004 |
Welcome Pamela! You don't have it easy! But God promises to work all things out for good, not for easy - so not to worry! Praying with you for wisdom to know when to speak up, what to speak, and when to keep quiet. helovesme2 | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 239 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Pamela, I remember that at one time I was living as an apostate SDA, and my mother was worrying with me on the phone about how she wanted me to clean up my act so I could be in heaven with her. She didn't want to have to watch me burn in the Lake of Fire. My response was, "But Mom, Jesus is kind to us sinners, too, because he will anhialate us and we will simple cease to exhist." I was feeling very weary of trying to be perfect at that point in my life and had decided that Jesus was expecting more of me than I was capable of. That was my thinking as a believing SDA. Thank God, through Jesus, that he could see down into my heart. I never gave up my belief in Jesus and he knew that, so he sent information and trials into my life that made me question my SDA beliefs and now I celebrate each day that Jesus loves me as much as he does. All I can say is that you should pray for that sort of awakening for your dear brother. Trust me, every SDA on this website has had that moment of clarity, and if your brother's trust is in Jesus rather than a denomination, he will have that sort of opportunity to "wake up." Maybe he will have a lot of them. The other side of that coin is that you probably won't be able to hand him that opportunity. You will have to "wait upon the Lord." We will all pray with you that that day will come very soon. Belva | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 756 Registered: 7-2003  |
Belva, I would contend that every SDA that adheres to historic Adventist doctrine feels this at some point. It would be impossible not to eventualy feel, at least on some level, the filthiness of my own attempts at righteousness. Pamela, keep in mind that your brother probably feels this hopelessness at times and if he doesn't now, he will. You needn't take on Adventism head on. Instead, talk about Jesus. Talk about the wonderful love and grace of Jesus. Talk about the peace you have in Jesus. Talk about the joy you have in Jesus. Talk about the reality of the new birth, through Jesus, that you've experienced in your own life. Talk about the passion you have for Jesus. Talk about the assurance you have in Jesus. These are the things your brother is thirsting for. None of the works he is throwing himself into will ever satisfy that thirst. Speak of the Water of Life. The discussion will make him uneasy, but it will also make him thirsty for more of what you are experiencing. Chris | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2005 |
I remember exactly where I was when I finally gave up trying to be good! I had gone through a very painful divorce after 20 years of marriage. My whole world had fallen apart and I didn't know what to believe any more. It seemed that God had not heard my prayers for my family, and He had abandonned me. I was really at the lowest point in my life. I was driving on a country road and crying out (screaming really!) to God, asking WHY? I decided there and then that if God expected such perfection then I couldn't live up to that, and so I didn't need that kind of God. He could strike me dead! However, I told God that if He was really God, He was so much more powerful than I was, he should be able to understand my "childish tantrum". So I just gave up. He didn't srike me dead! And I began to finally understand Grace. It was a long journey from there - but that was the beginning! God showed me over and over that he was leading me! Looking back, I know that God used a terrible time in my life to show me that His Grace is sufficient. I never looked back at the SDA Church after that! But it took me many years to finally understand that it was the doctrine of the IJ that was at the heart of my misunderstanding Grace. I thought it was just ME not being SMART ENOUGH to "get it"!! I am lucky that my family is supportive of my decision to leave the SDA Church. I am trying now to show them the joy of really knowing Jesus. I pray daily that their years of SDA indoctrination will not keep them from finding this JOY for themselves. My father has died and I'm sure he had a saving relationship with Jesus and is in heaven. I was able to witness to him about my own journey to knowing Grace. He understood and was very open and supportive of me. I think he understood Grace all along, and was having his own struggle with the SDA doctrine. It was such a joy to share that with him before he died. My mother is 84, and has grown so much recently. She is finally starting to let go of her works oriented view of Salvation and is now attending Church with us. She may never remove her membership from the SDA Church, but I see her growing and trusting in Jesus more every day! My children are still searching, but I don't think they really understand what I am trying to show them. My daughter is more open than my son is at this point. They have both left the SDA Church, but haven't found another place to worship. I just have to keep praying and trusting Jesus to touch their hearts. My daughter lets me take my little grandbaby to Church and occasionally my daughter comes along also. It is so wonderful to see my grandbaby learning the little songs and stories about Jesus. I want her to learn right from the start how wonderful it is to know Jesus. My husband and I studied together to find out what we believe, and found a Church that we both love. Our pastor has been so wonderful and encouraging. He teaches straight from the Bible. He also has a good grasp of the impact of coming out of the SDA religion, so can point out where we are confused and show us a better understanding of what the Bible says. The members are so full of Joy and Faith and Love! We are so blessed! We are praying for our friends that are still trapped by Adventism. We have a couple that are starting to question, but are still pretty involved in their SDA Church. But we keep praying! I guess this got kind of long! And it is only a portion of what God has been doing for us! Only He can work all this together for good! It's so wonderful to leave the WORK up to him after me working so hard and getting nowhere!! -tisha | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 303 Registered: 9-2004 |
Priase God Tisha! I rejoice with you.. Question -- How did the IJ skew your understanding of Grace? Tracey | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2005 |
Since God's work wasn't finished at the cross, that meant that there was still time to become perfect before the "close of probation" when we are judged "good enough to be saved". The problem was that we never new if our name had come up yet. We may have already been judged too sinful - even one forgotton sin was enough to keep one out of heaven. Jesus blood on the cross wasn't enough! And of course "keeping the Sabbath" (perfectly!) was one of the things we had to do to be perfect. Does that make any sense? Others can correct me if I've got the IJ doctrine confused! I never did really understand it, but that was how the IJ doctrine came across to me! It seems to be at the heart of the judgementalism and legalism of the SDA Church. I had already decided that EGW was a false prophet, but I didn't really understand that she was the one who gave the church that confused IJ doctrine. I thought at least that was in the Bible! Boy was I blind! Eventually it all came together for me - THANK YOU JESUS! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1718 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pamela, welcome to the forum. I am the Lutheran here so it will be good to get your imput as sometmes I try to explain something and I mumble it up so hopefully you'll be able to help me out sometimes. And, no, I don't believe there is one demonination within Chritianity "more Christian" than the other. I just totally prefer the litergical form of worship, following the traditional Christian calendar, etc. and so on so have made my church home Lutheran. But back to your brother, it seems to me there are many truly Christian people in the SDA denomination. They truly are believing and behaving as they believe they are requirred to by God. At the same time though even these SDA's generally believe they have "the truth" and "all the truth" in the Bible and other Christians ae just 'not quite as Christian as the SDA's are". Generally the SDA people are real nice. It's the corny doctrines of the religion that got most (if not all) of us on here out of there. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 315 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tisha, that is exactly how it was explained to me, and my father was an SDA Bible teacher for 36 years. For what it's worth, I don't think the IJ doctrine was all on Ellen. My understanding is that Hiram Edson had a vision in a cornfield the day after October 22, 1844 in which he saw Jesus go from one compartment of the Heavenly sanctuary to the other. From this flash of thought, the IJ doctrine was hatched as a "cover" for the Great Disappointment. In this way, the early SDA's could claim that they only got the event wrong, that the date had been correct all along. Ellen threw her hat in with Edson, Joseph Bates, et. al. and her status as the seer of the group cemented the doctrine into place. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 92 Registered: 1-2003  |
to everyone, are there any texts that mention a close of probation? or anything that might be considered "the close of probation"? My mind may just be working slow today after a long day in class and parent/teacher conferences. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 93 Registered: 1-2003 |
Chris that is an awesome way of looking at things. Chris said, "Pamela, keep in mind that your brother probably feels this hopelessness at times and if he doesn't now, he will. You needn't take on Adventism head on. Instead, talk about Jesus. Talk about the wonderful love and grace of Jesus. Talk about the peace you have in Jesus. Talk about the joy you have in Jesus. Talk about the reality of the new birth, through Jesus, that you've experienced in your own life. Talk about the passion you have for Jesus. Talk about the assurance you have in Jesus. " All of my evangelism is done one on one and those ideas are all wonderful things to share with those who do not have that peace of resting in Him. After others see what you have you can go to a discussion of the "New Covenant" etc. Richard rtruitt@mac.com |
