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Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 58
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, SDA's don't emphasize Pentecost because it occurred on a Sunday. This is just another evidence that the christian church was transitioning to Sunday worship. Stan
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1633
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe Stan is right about the Sunday-link and Pentecost. Another reason I believe Adventists don't stress Pentecost is that it distinctly fulfills the prophecy in Joel 2 that God would pour out His Spirit on all people and young men and old would have visions and dreams, etc. Peter clearly said Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel 2.

Adventists, though, teach that Pentecost was NOT the fulfillment of Joel 2. They teach that Pentecost was the "early rain" (mentioned in Joel 2), but we are to pray for the "latter rain" (also mentioned in Joel 2) which SDAs claim was to come just before the second coming. In other words, Adventists are still looking for the full pouring out of God's Spirit. They don't believe it's really happened yet. Pentecost was just a localized anomaly--sort-of--a precursor to the true gift of the Spirit just before the end of time.

If Adventists really believed Pentecost was the birth of the true church and was the flfillment of Joel 2, they would have no way to claim they are the only TRUE church. If the true church began at Pentecost, then what role would Adventists have?

It's interesting that SDAs claim they are the inheritors and continuation of the Reformation. They never claim to be directly connected to the birth of the church at Pentecost--although they would probably admit all churches descended in some way from Pentecost.

Since they don't really take the Holy Spirit seriously as a current, fully-given gift, Pentecost can't mean very much to them.

Adventists really don't know what it means to be born again.

Colleen
Denisegilmore
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Username: Denisegilmore

Post Number: 199
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Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 3:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a study on Baptism, the Gospel-Doctrine Debate for those of you who asked:

http://www.zianet.com/maxey/reflx176.htm
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 236
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Which baptism is more important, the literal water baptism, or the baptism by the Holy Spirit? I know it is much easier in our modern society to recognize the baptism by water, but we have also been promised a baptism by spirit and by fire. Was that the exclusive property of the Day of Pentecost, or can we have it today?
Tracey
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Username: Tracey

Post Number: 283
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

<speechless>

I accepted Jesus and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the same time.. I spoke in tongues from that same month. Then I learned more of what Jesus did for me. Clearly, He looked at my heart and not my spiritual knowledge and biblical knowledge of Him and poured out His Spirit on me.

And I actually believe that could be the case with many. Why would I be different? Many people just aren't taught about "speaking" (as we refer to it) But as much as my previous church "over emphasized" it. The Word says Love is the greatest thing to possess. With that said, it blesses my prayer life -- when I am happy, and can't find the words to thank Him, I will speak and when I am so overwhelmed and burdened, speaking is soo freeing.

There are differences in tongues. One kind is divers where the Lord lets you hear and understand for interpretation to edify the church.
The other kind is what happened in Pentecost where they prayed for the HS to fall upon them and when they were all of the same desire and mindset to pray for it. This kind helps you individually and it's the Spirit in you communicating with the Lord in perfect will. I will have to find the scripture for you. But the prayer language as it is also referred to allows for a free, non-thinking, absolutely perfect praying to Him, on behalf of His will in your life and praises to Him. Just imagine talking to God without having your flesh and mind in the way. Absolutely perfect. And the cool part is, the more it's done, you eventually can interpret what the Spirit is saying to the Spirit. Sometimes the Lord is speaking to you and sometimes His Spirit in me is talking to Him and giving Him perfect praises! And when He is speaking to you, He is encouraging you, directing you, talking about His Love toward you.. And when mine is talking to Him, I can hear it say things like exactly why Tracey loves Him (not thank you for my job stuff) but love for His ways and His goodness and His holiness. Anyway, that's Speaking 101!

It's just a matter of being taught not to fear it and completely opening up to Him. Of course He won't make you move your mouth! : ) But most people aren't really interested in having the HS in that way of their life but this second kind is given to everyone like on the Day of Pentecost..

And I don't believe it's absolutely neccessary But it greatly enhances my relationship with the Lord.

fyi.
Tracey
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Username: Tracey

Post Number: 284
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Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh..

I asked C. If Christ only fulfilled the ceremonial laws, then wouldn't His purpose be to have just died for us and that would be the end of the purpose?

But the fact is that He rose so what does that say?

Well, it was a little too deep for him. Which, to me seemed like a common sense question,but I think he gets so confused b/c it interferes with what he was taught that he can't process it.

So, I felt bad for him and told him that he didn't have to answer it, but it's certainly something to think about.

Doesn't that question make sense to you guys?
"If Jesus only died for ceremonial laws, then wouldn't he just need to stay dead? What is the point of raising from the dead EXCEPT that there is more to His purpose!!
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1638
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belva, Ephesians 1:13: when we accept Jesus, He seals us with the Holy Spirit. That is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Our spirits which are dead in sin are brought to life by the Holy Spirit, and now all the power of heaven is ours.

1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12 describe the various gifts of the Spirit which He gives us according to His will. We don't all get the same combinations of gifts--and 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 clarify that not everyone will speak in tongues, just as not everyone will have all of the other gifts.

Since the gifts of the Spirit are for the edification of the body of Christ, the Spirit's gifts to us may depend upon where we are and what the needs and cultures are like where we are serving.

God equips us for what He calls us to do, and even our work He prepares in advance for us (Ephesians 2:10).

Yes, every believer is baptized by the Holy Spirit. We often, though, experience limited power because of the things we do not surrender to Him.

I believe that when we ask Jesus to do in us what needs to be done, He will be faithful to bring into our lives the discipline and insight from Him that we need in order to grow. He will also gift us according to His will (1 Corinthians 12:11).

Colleen
Belvalew
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Post Number: 237
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Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, if I am understanding you correctly, the baptism by the Holy Spirit is the only required baptism. The water baptism is nice, and recommended, but not a salvation issue.

The reason I brought this up in the first place is because I remember when I was a kid hearing my parents discussing the issue of a teen who was extremely ill (terminally) and wanted to be baptised. The problem was the degree of illness and the accomodations that would allow for immersion. I think they solved it by baptising him in his parents' bathtub, but of course there wasn't room for the minister to be in there with him.

This was such a big deal at the time that it has remained in my head as an absolute necessity, and a stumbling block, because how do you save someone who for one reason or another just doesn't manage to get into the baptismal font before they die? Is Jesus that harsh? I'm talking about people who loved Jesus and trusted him totally. Why would they lose out on salvation just because they didn't manage to get into the water with a preacher?

Thank you all very much for your responses.

Belva
Denisegilmore
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Username: Denisegilmore

Post Number: 202
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belvalew,

I found the articles in the link above your post helpful for me. Perhaps they may help answer your question.

If not, write to Al Maxey and tell him what you are thinking or would like to know about. He'd be more than happy to answer to the best of his ability and even continue answering more questions that may arise in your mind. Who knows, maybe it could be helpful.

Peace to your household,

Denise
Denisegilmore
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Post Number: 203
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Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belvalew,

You stated this in part:

"Why would they lose out on salvation just because they didn't manage to get into the water with a preacher?"

In that case scenerio that you depicted, it is un-imaginable to believe she wasn't saved. Trust the Lord on this Belvalew and what others are saying and like I've stated in the above post, you could also just email Al Maxey. I'm sure he'd shed light on this topic as others have here in the forum.

God Bless you,

Denise

Denisegilmore
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Post Number: 204
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Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Correction to above post:

I meant to refer to the person being baptized as a 'he' not 'she.' Sorry.
Denisegilmore
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Username: Denisegilmore

Post Number: 205
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracey,

The Scriptures, on gifts, you refer to are in 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Then in chapter 13 it is about Love. And more on tongues in 1 Corinthians Chapter 14.

Love in Christ.

denise
Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 268
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 4:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracey, I believe you will find Adventists and most formers will shy away from any connection between speaking in tongues and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

For me, I know I always felt superior to the charismatic types who I'd always been told went only on their experience or emotions and not on the Word of God. Now I look back on that and chuckle at how naive I was, just buying into the party line without any knowledge whatsoever.

I know one person who was still Adventist when she started speaking in tongues during a time of prayer on her own and she did not even believe in it! Talk about a shocking experience. Then she had to figure out what had happened to her and the Holy Spirit took her to the book of Hebrews, she found the new covenant and the rest is history as she studied her way out of Adventism.

Right now, I have many friends who could be described as charismatic. I have four different women friends who hold ministerial credentials in four different organizations but all are Spirit-filled, tongues speaking powerful women of God. They are women of the Word who most undoubtedly know their Bible better than do the vast majority of Adventists. I certainly donít agree with all their positions. Iím especially unhappy when the charismatics lean toward legalism and say speaking in tongues must be in evidence in order to prove one has been baptized by the Holy Spirit.

My other theory on why formers still shy away from charismatics is that they have been burned so badly by their experiences with EGW, and they are aware of some charismatic events in her early history, that they then steer far away from anything of a similar nature.

For me, God used understanding the Holy Spirit as the first building block to getting me out of Adventism. Reading the book of Acts verse by verse opened my eyes to walking in the Spirit. Today I prefer a non-denominational congregation that allows for a more charismatic belief. Since I moved Iím still church shopping and yesterday I attended a daughter church to the Brooklyn Tabernacle in NYC. (Anyone ever read Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire by Jim Cymbala?) I donít know if they believe in speaking in tongues or not, but there was such a powerful evidence of the Holy Spirit among the congregation yesterday and such a strong emphasis on prayer and the Word, that this is now definitely high on my list of congregations to consider.

Iíd like to hear othersí viewpoints on this. Am I missing it with my interpretations here?

Praise GodÖ
Tracey
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Username: Tracey

Post Number: 289
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, Denise..

Thanks for the scripture ref. but I wanted to give you guys the one that tells what the tongues do.. It seems like it's in Isaiah or something. I vaguely remember the words "groanings and utterings" something something.. Or I could be totally confused about where it is! : )
Tracey
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Username: Tracey

Post Number: 290
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 9:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PG -- I will respond to you soon.. on my way out the door.
Brenttn
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Username: Brenttn

Post Number: 1
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a lurker, I have found a thread that piqued my interest. I can remember reading the letters and minor writings of EGW warning against the dangers of emotionalism, ecstatic utterance and the corresponding interpretations of well meaning professors explaining about glossalalia (sp?) and all that went with it was what she was warning about. I knew that the pentecostal crowd was a group to be very leery of.

And then I attended a Joyce Meyers conference. Her practical advice for day to day living in Christ reached my analytical mind and made sense. And as I looked at the frustrating mess that I had made of my life trying to "DO" the right thing and "BE" a good "Law abiding" christian, I knew that there had to be something more.

I knew that the weekly trip to the church was just a game. It seemed to me that my eyes were opened to the farce that it was. Christianity is so much MORE than going to church, it is a day to day walk with Christ. At the end of the weekend conference, Joyce prayed over the audience and explained prayer language. I took the tape that they handed out and thought "well that was interesting, but it's not for me." But the seed was sown.

God got my attention at that conference and I found myself attending yet another one. Again at the end Joyce prayed over the audience and asked God to give people their prayer language. At this meeting I finally surrendered to God's prompting and really turned my life over to Him. But I didn't get a prayer language.

I kept praying and asking God if I was holding back on Him. And I just received a gentle peace that all things come in due season. So I kept turning to Him. Then one night I was driving to work to do some after hours work, and a song came on the radio and as I listened I felt the Holy Spirits presence moving in my heart and soul. I was humming along with the song and all of a sudden words not of my choosing and definitely not in English started flowing out of my mouth. WOW, it was an awesome experience.

I have to admit that PG has made an interesting point that we as formers are likely to be afraid of anything that smacks of prophetic because of a knee jerk reaction to EGW, and the misuse of the prophetic gift.

I come back to Acts 2 as a true description of what we should be longing and asking God for, a true outpouring of the Spirit. Not to place the Holy Spirit in a box of our making but to do as he wants in my life daily. Not walking in the flesh but in the spirit. My true Sabbath rest today! God has much more than we can imagine, He promised that we would be able to do even more than He did when He was here on earth, and that was in the context of Him raising the Dead. I cannot fathom what more we could do than that, but its His words not mine!

I believe that the 1 Corinthians 12-14 that others have referenced sets the context very nicely for the outpouring of the Spirit within a church setting. THE Heart and Center of the Spirit being poured out is LOVE. Nothing else is so important to God. Thats why its in the middle of the discourse of the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.

Paul himself stated that we as followers of Christ should Covet to prophesy. He stated that we should desire to speak in tongues. I think his plea to us is to Give up our ideas of how He should work and just let Him work to His Glory.

Hrm, I guess I'll get off my soapbox for now. I have more about our walk away from the church, but thats for another time and thread.
Flyinglady
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Post Number: 1243
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brenttn,
Welcome to FAF.
Please let us know more about you, when you are ready.
We do have an awesome God.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1646
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 11:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Brenttn! We're glad you've joined us, and we look forward to more of your story.

Colleen
Denisegilmore
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Username: Denisegilmore

Post Number: 206
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracey,

Paul talks about how we don't know how to pray at times with these verses:

Romans 8:26-27 NIV

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."

"And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will."
--------------------------------------
Here's the KJV version of the same two verses (which I like least due to calling the Spirit an "itself" and the lower case "he"):

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
------------------------------------------
Here's the New American Standard version:

"And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weaknesses; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

vs 27--"and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
------------------------------------------------
Here's the Amplified Version:

"So too the (Holy) Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance."

"And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the (Holy) Spirit--what His intent is--because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God's will." [Psalm 139:1-2]
-----------------------------------------------
Isn't that comforting to know that the Holy Spirit Himself intercedes in our behalf!? For me, that is very comforting.

Hope these help some. There are other verses of course but these happened to be in my head when you mentioned "groaning."

Here are some Scripture referrences with regard to "groaning" within our spirits and also regarding "all of creation" itself "groaning." This includes words like "groan," "groaned," "groaneth," "groaning," and "groanings," (taken out of concordance)--Please look into these Scriptures, they were very insightful for me.

Job 23:2
Job 24:12
Jer. 51:52
Eze. 30:24
Joel 1:18
Rom. 8:22-23,26
2 Cor. 5:2,4
John 11:33,38
Ex. 2:24
Ex. 6:5
Ps. 6:6
Ps. 38:9
Ps. 102:5,20
Acts 7:34
Judg. 2:18
---------------------------------------------
Now here are some Scriptures with the use of the word "utterance" and similar renditions of the word. These all are from the KJV simply because that's the concordance I have. There's far too many to put here but here are a few with regard to the Spirit and spirit:

Acts 2:4

".....as the Spirit gave them utterance......"

1 Cor. 1:5

".....ye are enriched by Him, in all utterance...."

2 Cor. 8:7

"....in every thing, in faith, in utterance...."

Eph. 6:19

"...that utterance may be given unto me, that...."

Col. 4:3

"....would open unto us a door of utterance...."

Is. 32:6

"....to utter error against the Lord, to...."

Prov. 14:5

"....but a false witness will utter lies...."

Joel 2:11

"....the Lord shall utter His voice before...."

Neh. 6:19

"...before me and uttered my words to him...."

Ps. 66:14

"....Which my lips have uttered and my mouth...."

Hab. 3:10

"....the deep uttered his voice and lifted...."

Rev. 10:3

"....seven thunders uttered their voices...."

Prov. 29:11

"...a fool uttereth all his mind...."

Mic. 7:3

"....he uttereth his mischievious desire...."

Isaiah 59:13

"....uttering from the heart words of....."
------------------------------------------------
Hopefully Tracey, you will read all of these in their complete verses and context and if you have a concordance, that would really be a good help also.

Well, didn't mean to get carried away on you but hopefully this helps somewhat.

God Bless you.

denise









Denisegilmore
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Username: Denisegilmore

Post Number: 207
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The reason for my above post is due to these words of Tracey, in case anyone was wondering why I chose the words "groaning" and "utterance" and the variations of those words for the topic of my post.

Part of Tracey's words: "I vaguely remember the words "groanings and utterings" something something.."

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