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Doug222
Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2001 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greg,
I haven't rung in since your "Independence Day" so allow me to add my words of congratlations.

In support of the statement you just made, allow me to quote from an internal study document produced by the GC and posted on the Official SDA Website in reference to the Ecumenical Movement:

"In many church circles, broad-mindedness is seen as an ecumenical virtue. The idea ecumenist, it is suggested in not dogmatic in belief and is somewhat fluid in doctrinal views. He greatly respects the beliefs of others, but is less than rigid about his own belief. He appears humble and not assertive about doctrinal beliefs--except those regarding ecumenical unity. He has a sense of partial knowing. To show religious doctrinal arrogance is, ecumenicaly, especially sinful.

All this has a laudable side. Humility and meekness are Christian virtues. Indeed, Peter tells us to always be ready to answer and give a reason for our faith, but this must be done with humility, respect, and a good conscience. However, there is in ecumenical ranks, an almost inbuilt danger of softness and relativization of belief. The whole concept of heresy is questioned. Lately, questions are even raised regarding the idea of paganism.

Typical of some ecumenical presuppositions is the idea that all denominational formulations of truth are time-conditioned and relative, and therefore partial and inadequate. Some ecumenists would even go so far as to advocate the need for doctrinal synthesis, bringing together various Christian beliefs in a cocktail approach. We are told that each church is imbalanced and it is the task of ecumism to restore balance and harmony. Within the reconciled diversity of the ecumenical movement, presumably everyone, in the words of Frederick the Great, 'will be saved in his own way.'

Adventist believe that without strong convictions, a church has little spiritual power. There is the danger that ecumenical quicksands of doctrinal softness will suck churches into denominational death. Of course this is precisely what ecumenical enthusiasts hope for. However, Adventists feel that such doctrinal irresolutions must be vigourously resisted, otherwise, spiritual self-disarmament will be the result and a truly post-Christian age would be upon us."

This is Doug again, so you see that Adventist see it as their (not the Holy Spirit's) role to protct doctrinal integrity. As such, they believe that one must have a prescribed position on every biblical topic. To do otherwise is to condone "doctrinal medicrity"--according to SDA's.

I think most people on this board would fall into the category of what the writer of the above passage calls ecumenists. We believe our relationship with God transcends denominational barriers, and therefore the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth in His time. In the meantime, we are comfortable in knowing in whom we trust.

In His Grace

Doug
Graceambassador
Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2001 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Doug:
I am becoming more and more an admirer of your writing and the informational approach you take when posting your opinion.

I was going to post here a supposedly humorous analogy of the SDA's position as you described above but my old "sensitemeter" is buzzing, blinking and burining. I checked and the Holy Spirit was operating it...

Let me seriously say, though, that this attitude of "guardians of honor and pure doctrine" position of the SDAs IS NOT A PRIVILEGE of the SDA alone. The sad fact is that we are really to "fight for the faith once delievered to the Saints" and this has been interpreted by denominations as "their peculiar tenets of faith".

In truth, some of our modern denominations are so afraid of "doctrinal mediocrity" that they have settled for a "mediocre doctrine". In other words: they say "let us establish the absurd as truth just so we have a position over which to fight, and call everyone that disagrees with it, mediocre and absurd. Let us place our MAJORS in MINORS and call everyone that points to our insignificance an ecumenical monger and blame their discovery of our irrelevance on their bitterness and some paralel insignificant motive...

As such, the Catholics say that priests become "protestants" to get married, SDA's say that people leave their congregation for mediocrity and bitterness, Mormons say people leave the temple because they like coffee too much and hate plastic underware and chastety belts, Jehovah witnessess say that people leave their Kingdom Halls because they do not like to knock on doors, Pentecostals say that people leave their churches because they do not like "noise", and non pentecostals say that people leave their churches because they were attracted by that "noisy" church accross the tracks...

There is hardly any claim of "doctrinal foundation" as a reason for people to leave when in fact "doctrinal foundation" (which is neither a doctrine nor a foundation) and its inherent errors are precisely what THE HOLY SPIRIT USES to bring people out from aberrant beliefs. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth and I see IN THIS FORUM everyday this covenantal promise being fulfilled, including in MY LIFE. He, the Holy Spirit, and He alone will guard the truth and guide us to The Truth. I praise God for the work of the Holy Spirit!

Just a thought...

Grace Ambassador
Sherry2
Posted on Monday, August 06, 2001 - 6:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thoughtful posts indeed. I agree very much with Greg's post. As SDA's we did learn that we had all the truth and everyone else was wrong. So to say "I don't know" is a good thing. And secondly to explore other options is a joy too...not being afraid to study and question, and above all, know that as we trust in Jesus Christ fully, He will teach us all things.

Greg, do you find it interesting that though we as SDA's claimed to look so forward to the coming of Christ, in all honesty we really countered that by believing He wouldn't come until after the "Sunday" law was inforced? So who really looks forward to His coming more? Those who think it could even be today?(like those Rapture bumper stickers - If you don't see anyone driving this car, I've been raptured) Or those who are looking for a very specific thing to happen first and then He'll come? I still have a fear about His coming, more to do with the fact of His awesomeness, and majesty...that truly my knees would quake like Daniels did...but I have an honestly much more enthusiastic view of His coming, knowing it could be today. And frankly, it really is in my lifetime, for whenever I die, I will be in His presence, and that is such a blessed hope. For all of us, He does indeed come in our lifetime.
Loneviking
Posted on Monday, August 06, 2001 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greeeeetings y'alll!! L.V. is back from vacation!
I truly wish I could have joined the group in Deadlands that one Friday night in July when I was in town, but I had an old friend with a husband having a lot of back troubles----which in turn created a lot of emotional and spiritual turmoil. Anyway, I was doing some hand holding and missed the meeting. BTW---Colleen, Dan T. from the Fresno E.V. Free says to say 'Hi', and greetings from the 'formers' up there. (He and I have been best friends since 4th grade!)

I'm really glad to see this 'Rapture' thread getting so much press. The Left Behind series has become so much of a threat to the SDA church that they have put out an anti-Rapture video/tape called 'Whats' left out of Left Behind'. But you know, if you read and accept the Bible literally, it's real hard to dismiss the Left Behind series.

As we traveled around, my wife had picked up the tape series of Left Behind. Now folks, she's still in the SDA church clinging to the Sabbath but not EGW. (I'm the heretic that bailed out for the Church of Christ). She is really curious about where the authors are coming up with this stuff and I'm showing her just as fast as I can. Subversive that I am, I'm also planting seeds of 'just wait until you see what else SDA doctrine missed'!:) Anyway, I guess this book is opening a lot of folks eyes and ears---something I'm grateful for.

I even wound up at the Redwood campmeeting! Folks, if you ever have the opportunity, check out the Northern Cal. Conference campmeeting held at Weott, Cal. That has to be the most beautiful camping spot I've ever seen---and I've been to about 42 states or so and travel quite a bit. The Eeel river runs down through a heavily wooded valley. During the day, the sun warms the valley and the river making for great swimming and comfortable temperatures.

At night, the fog sneaks back in and the temps drop to where you want a light jacket. The woods are alive with lights----it looks like something out of a fairy tale. The count on the last Sat. of the meetings was 4,000 in attendance---but the place is so big and wooded that you would have guessed (maybe) 400.

Anyway, I and my family was there as one of our good friends is the pastor of the Truckee and South Shore Tahoe churches. My oldest daughter wanted to be baptized by him in the Eel river surrounded by her old Pathfinder friends. She was baptized into Christ without all of the rigamarole of going along with the 27 Fundamentals.

You know, as I met SDA's I'd known years ago and worshipped with folks both known and unknown, some thoughts came to me. First, many SDA's are very serious about their faith---they truly are trying to live up to what they have been taught to see in the Bible. Most truly aren't out to voist off a toxic faith on someone, and most really aren't our enemies. They are seekers, like we are and if treated with kindness and patience they may be led to see that the distorted gospel that they follow is like a millstone around their neck.

Second, say what you will, but the Campmeeting experience is something that most denominations don't practice today and yet it is something very powerful, spiritually. I was only there a couple of days, but I could sure feel my spiritual batteries being charged. Do any of you know the song 'The Song of the Lamb'....the words of the chours as best as I can remember are:

'We will dance on the streets that are golden,
Every race, every kindred and tongue,
We will dance on the streets that are golden,
We will sing, the Song of the Lamb.........

If you ever have the pleasure of hearing two hundred folks singing this song with a praise band I can guarantee that you'll have tears in your eyes and the neck hairs standing straight up!! The music was fantastic, and even though some of the meetings had a bent that I couldn't agree with, still it was a chance to ask questions and make folks think.

The other interesting stop was Salt Lake city and touring around Temple Square. The Mormons are just as cultic, and just as passionate about their prophet as the SDA's! Time and again I heard 'let me share with you my testimony'---as if that somehow made their beliefs 'the truth'. It's sad to see people putting so much energy into something that is a lie. Much like SDA's though, if you can just get them thinking----startle them enough with something like the Left Behind series, you just might have a chance to get them out of the trap they are in.

Well, I've rambled enough for one night and I'm still exhausted from going from Cal. to Ohio in four days. I see that the 'Cannonball Run' is being hyped on T.V. as a great race taking just 5 days! What a bunch of wimps! We could have made it in five days with kids!! Enough rambling....goodnight.

Bill
Windmotion
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2001 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wanted to comment on those Left Behind books. I don't like them because I disagree with them, I just don't think they are well written. But if they are a testimony and a witness to anyone, then by all means print more.
Also, Loneviking, I love that song!! but you left out one of my fav lines of the chorus "we will dance on the streets that are golden, the glorious bride and the great son of man" what a picture!! Being married for just a year and a half, I can still remember what a special time my wedding was (and my brother is getting married this weekend woo hoo). I cannot sing that song without getting choked up. If anyone has never sung it, you have got to if you never sing another song in your life!! I want to quote the whole thing!!
"sing a song of celebration
lift up a voice of praise
for the bridegroom will come
the glorious one
and oh, we will look on his face
weíll go to a much better place

we will dance on the streets that are golden
rhe glorious bride and the great Son of Man
from every tongue and tribe and nation
will join in the song of the Lamb

dance with all your might
lift up your hands and clap for joy
the timeís drawing near
when he will appear
and oh, we will stand by his side
a strong, pure, spotless bride."

This song is on the new WOW Worship CD. I bought it for my mom for her birthday, and we first listened to it in the car. I told her it was one of my favorite songs, and I told her the words as they were being sung so she would get them, and she started crying so hard she could hardly drive!! (she is naturally very emotional) If anyone wants to listen to really worshipful music all the WOW worship CDs are excellent.

--Hannah
Loneviking
Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 2:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Hannah!
I knew there was a line in there that I was missing!:) I'm also glad that you told us which cd to look for as I've been hunting around for the music and words.

Bill
Violet
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember the Sunday that the stand off with David Koresh happened. I had arived at my friend's babyshower and the other hosts (older SDA church women) were acting very distressed. The told me the news about what was going on. It scared me to death, I knew that this was the beginning of the end for SDA's. They would be persicuted. As I drove home with my new born and 3 year old daughters I remember praying asking Jesus to put off His coming because I was not ready.

I look back now and think how much I did not know Jesus. Then I saw Him as a school master with all the rule and the ruler to smack your hands with.

Now He is my Hero, my Savior, I am eagerly awaiting my Big Brother to come take me home so I can live with Him forever.

Vi
Sammi
Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 6:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra - you wanted to discuss rapture, and i wondered if you'd read this thread. i personally cannot comment at this time, i have not studied it whatsoever, and right now i know my sda upbringing and background is strongly influencing me. as an sda i could always understand confusion and debate over soul sleep and other issues, but to me rapture never had a leg to stand on (again, i've not studied it and am very open to it now, just haven't gotten around to it) - so i'm not one to talk about it until i have. i, like you, am very interested though, and would love to believe in a pre-trib rapture. then again, the fact that it's something i desperately WANT to believe in worries me some and makes me leery of focusing on it until i'm ready and able to really study it in God's word and nowhere else. (does that make sense?) love and prayers to all, sammi (carol)
Sabra
Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sammi,
Thanks so much! I had looked up rapture under the keyword search but didn't pull anything up. I'm still confused but I have some new texts to consider.
Me and a girl at work who wasn't taught the rapture are really studying into it. I guess if you're not expecting it and it happens it will be GREAT, but, if you're really counting on it and it doesn't happen one might be devastated........so much to learn! :)
Blessed week to all!
Sabra
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just to repeat myself--the word "rapture" simply means "caught up", and it doesn't mean "secret" to many Christians. It simply means what we would call the Second Coming.

Many Christians do believe that the Second Coming happens before the outpouring of the Wrath of God on the earth and that the church will be removed from the earth before that outpouring. Many (most?) Christians also believe that God will set up a millenial kingdom on earth before the final destruction. Revelation 20 really lends support to this idea.

Just relearning the terms and learning not to cringe at the word "rapture" has been a major step for me! Understanding the terms helps me to study the subject with less resistance.

Colleen
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This seems like an old string, but I wanted to add some details from my study when challenged by B on this topic.

There is a key concept that needs to be understood when talking about this issue which really helped me. That concept is the issue of translation vs. transliteration. Most people know what translation is, but transliteration, as it has been explained to me, is not taking a word and finding the corresponding word in another language, it is basically reshaping the original word into a new word for the 2nd language. Let's look at a common term: baptism. That is a transliterated word. The greek term is baptizo. The translation is "to dip". The same is true with the word rapture.

The difference is that rapture did not get transliterated from Greek, but from Latin. Let's look at it in scripture:

1 Thess 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be CAUGHT UP in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The words "caught up" is a greek word "harpazo" (strongs #726). It means "to seize". But the Latin word for "harpazo" is "rapio" another form of that word is "rapiemur". Rapiemur is the Latin word for harpazo in the above reference. That is where the word "rapture" is transliterated from. In Latin, "rapio" means 'to seize and carry off, snatch, tear, pluck, drag, hurry away'

Here are some other texts where 'harpazo' is found:

John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall SNATCH them out of my hand

Acts 8:39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, for he went on his way rejoicing.

2 Corin 12:4 how that he was CAUGHT UP into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So, you can see from scripture usage of harpazo, being pulled away or caught away is there. So, maybe the real challenge is not whether we will be pulled away, but when.

There is another greek word when scripture talks about Christ's second coming. It is 'parousia'. Parousia is usually translated as 'coming' in English. Here are a few scriptures (but there are 18 uses in the NT):

Matt 24:3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy COMING, and of the end of the world? [also vs 27, 37, & 39]

1 Corin 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christís, at his COMING

1 Thess 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23
2 Thess 2:1, 2:8, 2:9
James 5:7-8
2 Peter 1:16, 3:4, 3:12
1 John 2:28

Contrary to what B has said, the term 'rapture' is an old term. I have a book copyrighted from 1912 and it is in there. (B had said it was a 1970s term.)

I am not a prophecy expert and have read books from varying views. I don't know what is right. I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to mis-represent scripture and some are applying presumptions to whether a particular text applies to end-times.

Some pre-trib texts that challenge me are: 1 Thess 5:9....For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ [does that mean we aren't to see wrath as in God's wrath at the end of time?...or is that just hopeful thinking?]

Rev 3:10.....Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth
[keeping FROM? the hour, as in we are not here?]

Rev 14:15 .....Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped [when fields are reaped, the grain is removed from the fields....will Christians be removed from the fields??]

Is that a fair way to apply and interpret those scriptures? Could be. But the other side has scriptures too, which I won't go into for time. The point to B was and is here...the concept of rapture, as Colleen said above, is merely the idea of being "caught away". Regardless of when that event falls in God's timetable, I am to be ready at all times.

I have heard some really derogatory remarks from SDA about the whole rapture terminology and most of what I have heard is not an accurate representation of the teachings I have heard in non-SDA settings. I'm not trying to argue a position, as I have said, I really don't have one. I think there are probably things right in all views and things where the mark has been missed in all views. Let's not forget Christ's own words:

Acts 1:8 "It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority".

The words translated "times or seasons" in theoriginal language means we won't even know the era in time, so if we won't know the era, I don't know how we think we can know the day. If it wasn't for them to know, I doubt it's for me to know either. Let's be about the Lord's business and just be ready at all times.

B's response when I presented this information to him (photocopies from latin books and all) was that harpazo and parousia were the same thing. I did not research that. But from a language that has 9 words to describe our 'love', it seemed like he was merely trying to protect his position. I did not research his claims, however. They are definately different words when looking at the strongs dictionary, however.

Don't want to start any arguments, just sharing my study.
Chris (Chris)
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"So, you can see from scripture usage of harpazo, being pulled away or caught away is there. So, maybe the real challenge is not whether we will be pulled away, but when."

Melissa, I agree with your statement quoted above whole heartedly. I think we can say that all evagelical Christians believe in a rapture (harpazo). The debate really is about the exact sequence; pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib and/or premil, postmil, or amil. All these positions are defensible (to one degree or another) via scripture alone within the pale of orthodoxy. The real thing that Christians must agree on is the literal bodily return of Jesus Christ to this world to gather (or rapture) His own, to bodily raise the dead, and to bring judgment on the wicked. When you think about it, the exact sequence or timing of these events is a small point of debate (not unimportant, but small when compared with the struggle between evangelical Christianity and liberal Christianity for the essentials of the historic Christian faith).
Chris
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great posts, Melissa an Chris. I completely agree. I like the contrast you pointed out, Chris, between the timing of the rapture and the "essentials of the historic Christian faith." There truly are some things that we need to spend our energy exposing, and some things that just don't justify a fight!

Colleen
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,

Thank you for being honest with the fact you have questions about what might happen. I am sure we all do even though there are some who will say they are not insecure about what might happen.

First of all I think God created us that way. Think about the fight or flight syndrome. We have a built in Voluntary muscular system that kicks in when something is put in front of our eye which makes us blink. The same thing happens when we are frieghtend. I do not do anything to make it happen it is the way I was created.

Having said that I will say that with all my heart I wish these vereses would comfort me to know that I I would never be persecuted or expereience any wrath be it from God or because of God's supremacy.

I know that this is not reality though as I come from descendants who were burned at the stake with tounge screws in thier mouths while their young children watched for standing firm in their faith.

But this is what I do know; He will be with me.

I pray you will not find this dishearting but rather know that God has told us that He would not give us more than we could bear. I am here to testify to that very scripture and least any one think I think that I have been thru a lot I only need look around and see that there are those who have suffered far more than I. That is put in front of me daily as I think of my brother-in-law who has Mutilple Sclerosis
and because of it his family has deserted him.

Melissa, I think it would be good if you and my daughter could talk and I have sent a message to administration to give you my email for this purpose. If you would rather not then I will respect your wishes. I would rather not give my email out here as my husband would probably not understand if per chance I was to receive some of the mail that others have after giving out their emails. I am an understanding person and all you need say is you would rather not.

Keep up the Good work of Bible reading and may you find peace thru adversity, Carol
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol, I will look forward to hearing from you.
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This subject also seems to be a subject that cults will label you as being with Satan himself if you believe that you will be raptured up with Jesus. Why is this subject and What happens to your soul after you die. Always that if you believe in these you are almost in bed with satan. What other topics along with keeping the Sabbath always is tied in by the cults with salvation or being again in bed with satan. I also am begining to think that some churchs almost put Paul's writtings sometimes in that catagory to.
speakeasy
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy,

You are absolutely right when you say that some categorize Paul's writings in the same light. I even had a coworker, a Christian, quote me this verse, out of context, and expounded on Paul's "frame of mind".

Verse quoted:Acts 26:24-And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

This coworker took this verse all out of context when she used it to "PROVE" that Paul was indeed "MAD" and somewhat of an arrogant fool for supposing that the gospel was as simple as he actually preached that it was.

It seems to me that some people know just enough about the Bible to actually make themselves quiet the fool, as in the above example. This same woman, by the way, HOPES that she will be GOOD enough to enter into heaven when she eventually dies. Of course, I could tell you many other dumb things that she thought too but won't get off into all of it.

I will make these comments about soul-sleep and the rapture and then end my post with a hearty "God bless and keep you till we meet in glory."

I Thessolians 3 is a wonderful chapter that makes mention of Paul sending Timotheus, a brother, and minister of God, and fellow-laborer in the gospel of Christ (He was a young convert who was taught the gospel by Paul.) Timotheus was sent to help establish and comfort the Thessolians in their new faith. Paul wanted them to know some facts about the return of Christ, and I guess my question to all of the SDAs concerning their belief on soul-sleep would be this: ìExplain just how in the world Christ could return WITH his saints IF they are dead in the grave?î Please read I Thessolians 3:13: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH all his saints. (Note too that he says with ìALLî his saints, not just a few), so, wouldnít this same text also PROVE that there will be a rapture of the church prior to his return if all his saints are indeed with him when he returns to set up his earthly kingdom in Israel where he will rule the Jews with a rod of iron? We can also look at what took place immediately after the resurrection as told in Matthew 27:52,53-- And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (SDAS can't change the word of God, so, they are without excuse in light of the fact that God reveals too anyone his truth IF ONLY they will seek it out with a humble and broken heart.

If God tells us to study (2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.) and also lets us know that no one BUT a child of God, indwelt by the Holy Spirit could possibly understand things of God (1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.) then isnít God showing us that many of our SDA families must not be saved? Or at the very least, wouldnít that indicate that IF they were saved, they just prefer to live in ignorance rather than swallow their foolish pride?

I could say a lot about pride and arrogance but the bottom line to our dilemma with the SDAs can also be found in Godís word in the Old Testament book of 1Samuel 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast REJECTED the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king. (The keys words here are ìrebellion, iniquity, and rejectedî) Does any of this sound familiar? Well, guess I need to get up and cook some supper before it gets so late. It is HOT here with the bedroom air-conditioner on the blink!

Talk to all of you later,
Janice
Skip
Registered user
Username: Skip

Post Number: 14
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mellissa wrote on the Rapture:

Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 9:50 am: ÝÝ
"This seems like an old string, but I wanted to add some details from my study when challenged by B on this topic."

"There is a key concept that needs to be understood when talking about this issue which really helped me. That concept is the issue of translation vs. transliteration. Most people know what translation is, but transliteration, as it has been explained to me, is not taking a word and finding the corresponding word in another language, it is basically reshaping the original word into a new word for the 2nd language. Let's look at a common term: baptism. That is a transliterated word. The greek term is baptizo. The translation is "to dip". The same is true with the word rapture."

"The difference is that rapture did not get transliterated from Greek, but from Latin. Let's look at it in scripture:"

1 Thess 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be CAUGHT UP in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The words "caught up" is a greek word "harpazo" (strongs #726). It means "to seize". But the Latin word for "harpazo" is "rapio" another form of that word is "rapiemur". Rapiemur is the Latin word for harpazo in the above reference. That is where the word "rapture" is transliterated from. In Latin, "rapio" means 'to seize and carry off, snatch, tear, pluck, drag, hurry away'

Here are some other texts where 'harpazo' is found:

John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall SNATCH them out of my hand"

"Acts 8:39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, for he went on his way rejoicing."

"2 Corin 12:4 how that he was CAUGHT UP into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

NOW in answer to your point, isn't "The Rapture" that false doctrine that was thought up by a Ms. McDonnell in Scotland in 1830 who said she had a vision on it. And wasn't it two American "Missionaries" that brought it back to America after that? Then by the mid 1970s they were teaching it at the Dallas Theological Seminary as if it were fact. But, how can it be true despite the sale of 60 million "novels" claiming it to be a valid doctrine? Jesus said that He would cut the time of trouble short "for the elect's sake" meaning that the saved will be right here in the "trouble" that the "LEFT BEHIND" books say christians need not worry about because they will have been raptured out of here before the trouble arrives. It seems that LEfT BEHIND is teaching a false doctrine that isn't in the bible at all.


Skip
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 760
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a quick word on this: It can rightly be said that all Bible-believing Christians believe in the "rapture". The discussion isn't about whether or not we'll be "caught up" in the clouds to meet the Lord, clearly the Bible says we will be, end of story. The discussion is centered around exactly WHEN we'll be "caught up" to meet the Lord. We can debate whether Christians will be caught up to meet the Lord pre-trib, mid-trib, or post trib. We can even debate whether there will even be a "Great Tribulation" right before the second coming (some would say the tribulation foretold happened in AD 70), but we should all agree that we will be "caught up" to meet the Lord. And because we can all agree on this final point, we need not divide over the exact timing.

Chris
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 472
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skip, here is a website I found which discusses the Margaret MacDonald myth: http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html

Jeremy

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